Refund for false advertisement?

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Establish the rules right from the start, make sure people knows about them and make sure people know there are consequences if they break them.

One of the main reasons why MP is so open for all kinds of ... questionable business practices, is that everybody "know" LL doesn't even enforce the few rules they have.

Why do you think they don't do this?

[Luna Bliss]

No need to answer, ChinRey. 

I've always felt our financial concerns were not at the top of their list. But what can we do?

[KammyKat]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why do you think they don't do this?

The fact that they don't enforce the rules is quite the understatement. I mean getting harassed has no consequences on the harasser regardless how many reports you waste time sending. I've learned that in my short time in SL.

[Pamela Galli]

 There are four possible ways a transaction can go:

1.  Creator makes quality product, buyer buys demo, buys product. All good. 

2,  creator makes quality product, buyer does not buy demo, buys product. All good. 

3.  Creator makes bad product, buyer buys a demo and does not buy the product. All good.

4.  Creator makes bad product, buyer does not buy a demo but does buy the product. Bad experience. 

The buyer is in control of the outcome.   As long as the buyer buys a demo, there will not be unpleasant surprises.   Buying a demo does take a little more time and effort, but if you don’t feel like gambling, it’s the only alternative. 

   You can call it blaming the victim but it’s just the reality of the situation. 

 There’s really no need for hiring dozens of employees to investigate every disappointing transaction, when they  are almost entirely avoidable. 

[KammyKat]

20 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

4.  Creator makes bad product, buyer does not buy a demo but does buy the product. Bad experience. 

The buyer is in control of the outcome.   As long as the buyer buys a demo, there will not be unpleasant surprises.   Buying a demo does take a little more time and effort, but if you don’t feel like gambling, it’s the only alternative. 

   You can call it blaming the victim but it’s just the reality of the situation.

I guess you must have missed the part where I said there was NO Demo. The reality is that not everyone is accustomed to not having an option to get a refund when you've been lied to, and to have to resort to begging. My opinion is that there should be an enforced regulation for any purchases, one that both merchants and customers should be subjected to, not this wishy washy system that is at the moment.

[Pamela Galli]

No demo, no purchase. 

 It’s not complicated. 

 You were talking about your preferences, I am talking about how things actually are. You get to choose on which  to base your actions. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[KammyKat]

9 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

No demo, no purchase. 

 It’s not complicated.

No it's not complicated at all. If a merceht ia deceitful he should be punished and the customer reimbursed. Now that's a fair system. 

[Pamela Galli]

 OK then, ignore our advice, don’t buy demos, and when that doesn’t work, open support tickets and hope  for  a  refund.  

But you didn’t ask for us to confirm your opinion, you asked:: Is there any way to contact linden labs about this and get a refund?

when we answered that question and explained how to avoid the problem, you said it felt like we were blaming the victim. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Larisa String]

6 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

when we answered that question and explained how to avoid the problem, you said it felt like we were blaming the victim. 

The thing is you're just reiterating what's been said before and I guess we've already established the current system is nothing to write home about and probably should have enforceable rules both for merchants and customers. It just would be nice if instead of trying to figure things out on our own and arguing on forums we would spent more time in second life.

The reason it feels like victim blaming is that you "explained how to avoid the problem", just like how in real life men 'explain' to women how they should dress to avoid being harassed by other men. Do you see the point at all? If you really don't, just don't even answer cause it's frustrating to talk in circles.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Larisa String

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Larisa String said:

 just like how in real life men 'explain' to women how they should dress to avoid being harassed by other men. Do you see the point at all? If you really don't, just don't even answer cause it's frustrating to talk in circles.

this kind of response is in nothing different than a Godwin.

[Callum Meriman]

1 hour ago, Larisa String said:

just like how in real life men 'explain' to women how they should dress to avoid being harassed by other men

Not all real life men are like this.

[Dakota Linden]

Ladies and Gentlemen!

Let's please try to keep this discussion on topic for the issue raised in the Original Post. 

If I have to hide any more posts in this thread, I will, unfortunately, have to start handing out warnings, and I really do not want to do that.   

[Pamela Galli]

Dakota, was hoping you would stop by. How would you advise handling the problem of MP items not turning out to be of the expected quality — should it be LLs responsibility to investigate these things? 

[Love Zhaoying]

I believe that if LL does not refund your L$ this time, then perhaps eventually you will be convinced that most purchases are “caveat emptor”. Truly, it is the Marketplace Review system that make things work. Bad purchase experience => Bad review => fewer sales for that merchant. 

*Edit* Hope this response was on topic, I tried!

Edited February 22, 2018 by Love Zhaoying

[Dakota Linden]

21 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Dakota, was hoping you would stop by. How would you advise handling the problem of MP items not turning out to be of the expected quality — should it be LLs responsibility to investigate these things? 

Hi Pamela,

Content created and sold by users is solely the responsibility of the creator/seller. Unfortunately, if there is an issue, the buyer must try to resolve the issue with the creator/seller directly without the assistance of Linden Lab. 

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

1.4 Linden Lab is a service provider and is not responsible or liable for the Content, conduct, or services of users or third parties.

You understand that Linden Lab is a service provider that enables its users to interact online and display and communicate information and Content chosen by those users. Linden Lab does not control or endorse the Content of communications between users or users' interactions with each other or the Service.

You acknowledge that you will be exposed to various aspects of the Service involving the conduct, Content, and services of users, and that Linden Lab does not control and is not responsible or liable for the quality, safety, legality, truthfulness or accuracy of any such user conduct, User Content or user services. You acknowledge that Linden Lab does not guarantee the accuracy of information submitted by any user of the Service, nor any identity information about any user. Your interactions with other users and your use of User Content are entirely at your own risk. Linden Lab has no obligation to become involved in any dispute that you may have or claim to have with one or more users of the Service, or in any manner in any resolution thereof.

 

[Ela Talaj]

I'm not aware of any RL retailer that would refund either on-line or in-store purchase unless a customer returns the product.  In SL Marketplace more often than not returning the product is not an option because most products are no transfer. This considered, The Lab's policy of not interfering in refund disputes between merchants and their customers appears wise.

[Pamela Galli]

32 minutes ago, Dakota Linden said:

Hi Pamela,

Content created and sold by users is solely the responsibility of the creator/seller. Unfortunately, if there is an issue, the buyer must try to resolve the issue with the creator/seller directly without the assistance of Linden Lab. 

https://www.lindenlab.com/tos

1.4 Linden Lab is a service provider and is not responsible or liable for the Content, conduct, or services of users or third parties.

You understand that Linden Lab is a service provider that enables its users to interact online and display and communicate information and Content chosen by those users. Linden Lab does not control or endorse the Content of communications between users or users' interactions with each other or the Service.

You acknowledge that you will be exposed to various aspects of the Service involving the conduct, Content, and services of users, and that Linden Lab does not control and is not responsible or liable for the quality, safety, legality, truthfulness or accuracy of any such user conduct, User Content or user services. You acknowledge that Linden Lab does not guarantee the accuracy of information submitted by any user of the Service, nor any identity information about any user. Your interactions with other users and your use of User Content are entirely at your own risk. Linden Lab has no obligation to become involved in any dispute that you may have or claim to have with one or more users of the Service, or in any manner in any resolution thereof.

 

Thank you Dakota. So, everyone understands clearly before logging in that LL will not be responsible for "quality, safety, legality, truthfulness or accuracy".

 

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Thank you Dakota. So, everyone understands clearly before logging in that LL will not be responsible for "quality, safety, legality, truthfulness or accuracy".

 

Whatevs, I give LL credit/responsibility for all the fun, good times, and happy memories! Without LL there wouldn’t be any.

[Luna Bliss]

21 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Thank you Dakota. So, everyone understands clearly before logging in that LL will not be responsible for "quality, safety, legality, truthfulness or accuracy".

However, these facts do not negate that KammyKat had the unfortunate experience of being scammed by another resident. Perhaps had we responded more to these feelings this would not have escalated. Her message was clear to me, even though she did not state that's what she wanted.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

However, these facts do not negate that KammyKat had the unfortunate experience of being scammed by another resident. Perhaps had we responded more to these feelings this would not have escalated. Her message was clear to me, even though she did not state that's what she wanted.

I agree. The first time you are scammed, it is like the stages of grief: shock, anger, denial, bargaining.. and as experienced users the best thing we can to is to  be compassionate. Thank you for setting a good example! 

@KammyKat, I’m sorry this happened to you. It can be traumatic when things don’t go right. I hope they go better for you in the future!

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

@KammyKat - I'll add that although it is a very frustrating learning experience, you can somewhat console yourself in the fact that it very likely was not very much money in RL terms.

Hope your experiences going forward are more positive.  Definitely set yourself a threshold of how many L$ you are willing to throw away on something and in the future do not buy anything costing more than that amount without a demo or actually seeing it inworld.

 

[Tari Landar]

If LL made a habit of simply issuing refunds for bad purchases, disappointed customers, even on the basis of "not as described", they'd be in a mountain of refund requests, with no end in sight. That's the reality of things, and regardless of how many times people say "if they had policies in place and enforced them from word go...", such statements will always be lacking (what they're lacking may vary though).

In sl, much like in rl, merchants are not going to always be able to please everyone. Sometimes (this is not likely to apply the the OP's situation, but rather, a big portion of others) people get angry about products that simply aren't what they expected, for a myriad of reasons. Maybe it's bigger, smaller, takes up more LI/prims, is the wrong color, doesn't do what they thought it did...maybe they didn't really read the description, maybe the creator has a different idea of what the product is/does/looks like/should be than the customer. I mean, really, we could write for days and probably still have things we didn't include on a "reasons customers might ask for a refund" list.  Now imagine that LL employees had to deal with EACH and every single "I don't like it, I want my money back" request they got, not just the ones that seme more valid to us than others, but ALL of them. It would be pure hell to deal with, and I honestly doubt ANY LL employee gets paid enough to deal with all of that, on top of everything else. So, yeah, it would cost, ALL of us, in some fashion, to have that kind of thing in place. It may not apply to this particular case, but it sure as heck applies to a LOT of them, if not most. 

The real world isn't all that different, though. Let's say you buy something on Amazon(I use this, because most are familiar)..do you REALLY think Amazon is going to *always* refund on the basis of "product not as described"? I can assure you, they do not, and they most assuredly do not when they are not the fullfiller (yeah not a word, I'm making it one). Amazon is also "caveat emptor" when it comes to a lot of things. You can get refunds in some instances of "product not as described", but not them all, or even most. You can't even always get a refund for products that are faulty, lol.

Perfect example...I got my kid a Dobby Funko for her bday (she has hundreds, she collects). Dobby is supposed to have a sock in his hand. Our dobby, however, looks like this..(my apologies for the large size, but you need it to understand)

There is something wrong with this Dobby...something very, very wrong with this Dobby. We laughed it off, chalked it up to a Malfoy hijacking the delivery truck to take back...well. you get my drift

Amazon will not issue a refund for this, they didn't fulfill the order, but even if they had, they still won't issue one, I know, because I asked. Thankfully, my kid is awesome, and Dobby's flaw just makes him even more amazing to her. I had tried to get a refund without even asking her if she wanted me to return it and get one. Amazon's response was a resounding "no". Which is, in the end, a good thing,because she likes him the way he is. But suffice it to say, this is most definitely a "product not as described", despite it actually being brand new when I bought it. 

I get that it really, really, really sucks when transactions go bad, when merchants sell things not as described, when people feel cheated. I don't think the intention was any sort of victim blaming, but rather "we hear you, we do understand your plight, we've all been there, here's how you can avoid it in the future".

I'm not going to make excuses for the merchant in this case. But, assuming this merchant isn't actually in sl anymore(devil's advocate maybe?), it's entirely possible the merchant doesn't even KNOW the listing is marked as 100% mesh..because he/she is no longer around(which would also mean the money you paid is just sitting there, in his/her account, not even being used). I had a product marked 100% mesh that I was selling that was absolutely NOT mesh, I never made it mesh, I never selected that option, I would  have never selected that option, lol.  But during whatever the heck happened to listings going all wonky some time back, things went a little cuckoo and that listing I THOUGHT wasn't messed up with some of the others(like permissions being changed, listings going inactive,  pictures changing, etc..)...apparently was. Perhaps I didn't look at it close enough, that's entirely possible, and totally my bad if I didn't. A customer told me, I fixed it, all is well with the world, and it's never happened since. (that was quite a while ago though, lol). Or you could be dealing with someone that just doesn't care.

At any rate, I feel your pain, I'm sorry you had to deal with it. LL's choice to NOT meddle in the refund department, while not such a great thing in your eyes right now, IS in fact, a policy adopted worldwide, commonly used, and overall, not a bad choice. We may not see it when it involves us, our money, our time even, but we have to think broader than that. 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

On 2/21/2018 at 7:18 PM, KammyKat said:

No it's not complicated at all. If a merceht ia deceitful he should be punished and the customer reimbursed. Now that's a fair system. 

In a perfect world, sure.  SL, just like RL, is far from perfect.

[Chase01]

On 2/21/2018 at 7:40 AM, KammyKat said:

Hello I just bought a hoverboard from the marketplace and it says there it's 100% Mesh, but it isn't, it's all prim. Had I known this fact I would have never bought the product, but the images seem convincing and I thought I was getting a high quality product but in fact it's all made of prim and looks bad in-world. The product doesn't have a DEMO version, of course. I have reported the product for false advertisement.  I left a review that the product is misleading, and have sent the merchant a notecard explaining that I want a refund, but I don't think they are active in second life anymore.

Is there any way to contact linden labs about this and get a refund? Thank you.

My advice would be that before you start flagging and leaving negative reviews; that you contact the seller directly,  explain the situation and politely ask if they could provide a refund. Doing it any other way is IMO counterproductive. If they are unwilling, or unresponsive to your concern; then I am sorry to say that you're SOL.

Maybe this information had been posted before but was later removed. How much was this hoverboard and were there any reviews on it (did you read them)? Does the vendor have a store in world, or do they have a social media presence?  A little effort does go a long way.