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Owynn

CDS System abusing me

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Good morning everyone.

I have been plagued by this issue for over a year now. There is a system out there called CDS. I did not know about it until an avatar who owned a sandbox group and I had a disagreement and she and her sandbox members all began to grief me. They didn't eject me from their group, they just disabled my ability to chat in it while they talked about me and for the next few days harassed me in IMs. One of the points in their harassment was to claim that suddenly, just then, the CDS on their sim detected I was using 3a blacklisted viewer, but I have always only used firestorm and I was not even on their sim. They then said that I was now banned from a lot of other sims automatically and forever and claiming to many others that I was a content thief. I have been in SL since 2005 and never have I done anything like this. I thought they were just trying to get at me as I've never had any problem getting to any stores or sims.

However, it turns out they did something to put me in this system. I have appealed through the CDS website multiple times for over a year now and it turns out they have special connections to the CDS system and had me banned unjustly, but CDS will not respond to my appeals. I cannot go to some stores as I am automatically and temporarily banned from them the moment I arrive because of this system.

How is this not a form of griefing? I've heard that others had to contact Linden Labs to prove they have never used a blacklisted viewer. How can I do this? Occasionally, when these people see me, they still harass me with "What's it like being banned from 1500 stores?" or "Can you recommend a good copybot to me?" 

This has gone on long enough. Who should I go to about this? I have never used anything but firestorm. Before that I used phoenix. Before that I used Emerald and before that I used SL viewer. I have screenshots to prove all of this and I did report them many times before when this all started.

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2 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Well, the ad for it says it does not "store" IPs.  It says it uses "multiple methods", unspecified, to detect the use of copybot and griefing viewers.  I don't think the device itself actually bans anyone...it's marked down to $L 0, so I got one to play around with.

I've read their website in its entirety and talked with the owners of two of the stores I cannot get to. They and another friend of mine who had to deal with a similar situationn have told me that while their is a whitelistign function, you cannot whitelist someone that is on the global blacklist of the system. When I Tp to stores, the system automatically issues me a temporary ban for so much time. I then contact the sellers who tell me basically "It says here you're a known malicious user and have been caught using copybotting software." So then I present to them the screenshot I have of the owner of said system banning me because he felt like it and a few have tried... but short of disabling autobanning, which they donn't want to do just for me, they can't whitelist me from the autoban.

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1 hour ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

It isn't everyday that the door gets closed on a Q&A thread, but I can hear it creeking right now.

Sadly, you may be right. This is not the General Discussion forum.  Answers is intended as a place for residents to ask questions about how SL works (or why it doesn't), not as a place to debate policies or interpersonal behavior.

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Well, it doesn't help when people take a major misunderstanding and make it worse with demeaning, insulting or just downright inflammatory responses like this. I'm pretty new to using these forums as I...well i never frequent them. At all. As Rolig pointed out this isn't really the place for open discussion apparently and had I known that I would've posted elsewhere to begin with. But then what is to be said for all the posts in response that started off negatively, etc? Something to consider before you judge someone you do not know. 

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That's...not the issue or what I am arguing here, ma'am. I've NEVER disputed a land owner's right to ban someone.

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4 hours ago, Owynn said:

I don't need to as I never claimed they ban by IP, but as I said both of my accounts are on that list. Thanks for not reading and continuing to skirt Community Standards rules with your attitude and publicly declaring you banned me from your sims. Yes, both of those are against Community Standards.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they have an attitude. I thought you wanted a discussion?

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6 hours ago, Owynn said:

Yes. Normally the resolution is to go to the marketplace, but I have a policy of trying demos and not all stores provide their demos over marketplace and insist you go to their stores in world. My main concern are a few animation overriders I want to look into and that is a MUST to try out in world to see the animations on my avatar themselves.

Ok, let's try this from another angle.

Do you have an alt? If you do, perhaps the alt can go to these shops in your place and try the demos. If the demos work to your liking, have the alt gift you the item or order them from MP. It's a pain, but a possible roundabout way of getting the items you wish to have.

Other than that, I think all bases have been covered short of legal action and frankly, that's not a viable option.

Edited by Jerilynn Lemon

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1 hour ago, Jerilynn Lemon said:

Ok, let's try this from another angle.

Do you have an alt? If you do, perhaps the alt can go to these shops in your place and try the demos. If the demos work to your liking, have the alt gift you the item or order them from MP. It's a pain, but a possible roundabout way of getting the items you wish to have.

Other than that, I think all bases have been covered short of legal action and frankly, that's not a viable option.

I think he already said his alt is banned too. But, assuming the CDS system can’t ban by IP we don’t know why the alt was banned. I would suggest trying another alt but don’t talk to anyone about the previous issues, so they don’t ban that alt too,

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7 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

OK, guys.  I see two things at this point.

1.  I fully understand why Owynn is upset.  This device does have a global autoban feature.  The creator (and possibly the users) can use it to ban anyone they want not from just their land, but from ALL land where the system is in use.  That's an awful lot of power, far beyond what LL intended with the land ban system.  (As an aside, I also note that CDS was created by Skills Hak, the avatar who was responsible for putting dubious tracking code into the popular Emerald viewer.  He got himself and the viewer banned for it.  I am extremely wary of any code with Skills Hak's fingers in it.)

2.  I fully understand why a lot of us are upset with Owynn.  He or she will NOT let this go, but responds to almost every post in the thread instantly.  We're up to three pages already, and I bet everyone is as tired of it as I am.  Owynn, some friendly advice:  you gotta work on your social skills or you're going to keep getting shunned by people.

I'm done now.

The CDS system should be..banned.

 

C0902F5E-C0FE-46BE-A5C2-CAB13C1297B5.jpeg

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16 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

OK, guys.  I see two things at this point.

1.  I fully understand why Owynn is upset.  This device does have a global autoban feature.  The creator (and possibly the users) can use it to ban anyone they want not from just their land, but from ALL land where the system is in use.  That's an awful lot of power, far beyond what LL intended with the land ban system.  (As an aside, I also note that CDS was created by Skills Hak, the avatar who was responsible for putting dubious tracking code into the popular Emerald viewer.  He got himself and the viewer banned for it.  I am extremely wary of any code with Skills Hak's fingers in it.)

2.  I fully understand why a lot of us are upset with Owynn.  He or she will NOT let this go, but responds to almost every post in the thread instantly.  We're up to three pages already, and I bet everyone is as tired of it as I am.  Owynn, some friendly advice:  you gotta work on your social skills or you're going to keep getting shunned by people.

I'm done now.

Skills was permabanned in 2016  http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2016/03/insilico-second-life-skills-hak.html

I thought it was Fractured Crystal who wound up getting Emerald banned.

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7 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they have an attitude. I thought you wanted a discussion?

That's not why I perceived attitude, dude. This is why I respond to the posts. I am NOT trying to be an ass, but yeah posts like this bait and are pretty insulting. Also against posting guidelines, which I am amazed a lot of these posts have not been removed as a lot of them aren't even on topic and are just shots at me I mean. Seriously. WHAT is wrong with me asking these questions and responding to the comments, ESPECIALLY when directed AT ME as if for a response.

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1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The CDS system should be..banned.

 

C0902F5E-C0FE-46BE-A5C2-CAB13C1297B5.jpeg

And that has kind of been the point i have been after all this time.

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8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they have an attitude. I thought you wanted a discussion?

like..honestly it's not that they disagree with me that has upset me.

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22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Oh cool, I missed you spelling that out, as most of your statements were against the individuals who banned you, etc.

That and most of this forum post was a mistake. Mostly while I adjust to entirely new situations and treatments by my doctor, but more than that because a lot of my posts were an attempt to clarify misunderstandings I saw in the responses to my post by others. I don't have bad social skills, I just should have been clearer in the OP.

I also don't and never have liked the usual mentality of forum users and its why I try to stay away from forums whenever possible. Most people come in with a confirmation bias already established based on however they perceived your original post. That perception and bias are made further worse by the fact most people don't fully read something and skim. Confirmation bias is a natural psychological response to all social interactions and when coupled the cognitive dissonance many people haven't trained themselves to recognize and deal with, conversations had online spiral pretty quickly. Because of both of these natural processes in the mind many begin responding to posts like mine while applying their current emotional state and immediate perception of the situation eithout considering anything beyond what is in front of them, especially people who frequent forums or other online social media. The anonymity and disconnection from true interpersonal reaction only hinders gaining a true perception of the ones posting. This is what makes first impressions the MOST difficult thing to break from. For example, I see that I could have been much clearer in my OP and because I wasn't many perceived it as just another post angry about being banned from someone's land when in reality, the person who added me to the system doesn't even own any land in secondlife that I have ever been to or would care to visit.

What I am disputing here is allowing someone to have the power to set an automatic ban from lands they have no real jurisdiction or association with that those who DO own the land have no control over EXCEPT to remove the system they have sunk a lot of time and money into which they won't because of a fallacy and natural human perception that systems like this one and many schemes out there thrive on called "The Sunk Cost Fallacy." Sunk cost fallacy is, as I said, a natural human perception that because a person has spent a lot of time, personal or financial investment in something, it's value is much greater and worth whatever trouble it may be causing and we perceive our decisions based on this perception to be rational when in truth it's another product of cognitive dissonance designed to protect personal identiy and view of the self and this trained thought process skews the ability to abandon something based on the amount time, emotion or money spent on it.

So, as stated multiple times, I do not disagree with a land owners ability to ban someone from their land and I never will. I disagree with someone making that decision for them under false pretenses and LL allowing that person this level of control.

If the system were truly unbiased and only banned people who have been detected using copybotting or other malicious programs to access secondlife, that would be great. However the current person in charge of the server the system runs off of can add anyone they like to the system and list them as having been caught with malicious software when in fact, they have not. This person is not currently banned from SL and neither is their system. I was not added to the list for griefing a sim or for breaking any rules. I was added to the list because I defended myself from a group publicly attacking me and griefing me. They felt justified because I am different from them and their friend, the current owner of the system, jumped into the fray and declared to everyone I was now banned from every sim employing his system because he could. I was harassed by their toxic, trolling group of furries in SL and other programs as they took their time finding other contact information about me, and I do not know how they got it. It took over a week for me to distance myself from them and their cyberbullying, yes by definition that is what it is both literally and legally. And I made my reports on each of them, but I guess my frustration is that even though I did everything I was supposed to, it still has not gone away. 

I have made attempts of civil contact with the owner requesting this be undone and let go of as a simple misunderstanding and let us all move on via email, appeal process on their website and even their provided telegram and I did this after waiting 6 months. The responses I got were essentially "lawl no" combined with the posturing and "you pissed off the wrong person, so lie in your grave" mentality a person with too much control over others has. 

This system, Gemini CDS, uses content a creator's fear of copyright infringement and loss of funds due to piracy and theft to give one person a ton of lindens and too much power to lash out at anyone they don't like. They've weaponized their system against me and others while those who pay for their system do not know that this is happening because they are just led to believe someone added to the global autoban are on it because they broke TOS and/or are a person who pirates the content of others. 

 

In several responses, some of yoi have compared this to banning cartels. There is a major difference here as the banning or land cartels KNOW that they are banding together against a person in banning them because a member of that cartel decided they should be banned for whatever reason. Here, the thought is that I shouldn't be allowed near their store because the system detected a blacklisted viewer or software on my avatar when the truth is a completely unrelated and personal disagreement led to my being harassed and to further my harassment or 'teach me a lesson' the creator added me manually and presented me as a copybotter to that list - which is actually , by legal definition, malicious defamation by libel as it is written defmatation published and presenting me as guilty of an action I never comitted by a person who KNOWS otherwise and knows that that accusation is false, butbabused their own system to carry out my sentence themselves. 

So why am I here? Honestly asking why this is okay, trying to get some awareness and discussion started so that MAYBE LL might see it is a bad idea to allow this to continue OR to maybe start a campaign that discourages store owners and other land owners from participating in this sham. If it were a truly unbiased system that only globally autobanned those actually guilty, I'd be all for it, but that is not the case.

I hope this clears things up.

I've spent this time upvoting responses that contain no negativity or hint of insult or irritation, even if they missed something I already answered and downvoting the inflammatory responses or negative responses that don't actuallybfurther the discussion. I see others have downvoted anybof my atyempts to defend myself or my points here so they can further present the image that I'm mad at everyone here, when I am not.

I did not dispute anyone here banning me, merely the inflammatory or irrelevent responses given to me that have no logical intent behind them other than to upset or bother me, such as one person deciding only five posts in that they would publicly declare here that I was banned from their land. Doing this serves no productive contribution to the discussion, is entirely negative and designed only to make a personal shot at me. If you want to ban me from your land, do so. But don't rub it in my face where everyone can see it. 

Lindal, I do very VERY much appreciate you taking the time to investigate my claim further and seeing why I was upset. So many have reacted here without attempting to see what it was I was making points about and I truly do appreciate that very much.

Any of you who actually took the time to read this? Thank you. I know it's a lot but the negative behavior here thus far, including giving laughing reactions at my post are really no better than the actions of CDS's creator and the harassment I have already faced with him and his buddies. 

To those of you who have acted this way, thanks for making this forum a pretty unwelcoming place.

Those like Lindal and Rolig? Thank you for your efforts to do the opposite. 

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53 minutes ago, Owynn said:

.. and never have liked the usual mentality of forum users and its why I try to stay away from forums whenever possible. Most people come in with a confirmation bias already established based on however they perceived your original post.

I can understand that. Most of the regulars are usually nice, but some tend to get unruly if things start to go south. The more you view threads on here, the more you get used to it. 

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6 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

OK, guys.  I see two things at this point.

1.  I fully understand why Owynn is upset.  This device does have a global autoban feature.  The creator (and possibly the users) can use it to ban anyone they want not from just their land, but from ALL land where the system is in use.  That's an awful lot of power, far beyond what LL intended with the land ban system.  (As an aside, I also note that CDS was created by Skills Hak, the avatar who was responsible for putting dubious tracking code into the popular Emerald viewer.  He got himself and the viewer banned for it.  I am extremely wary of any code with Skills Hak's fingers in it.)

2.  I fully understand why a lot of us are upset with Owynn.  He or she will NOT let this go, but responds to almost every post in the thread instantly.  We're up to three pages already, and I bet everyone is as tired of it as I am.  Owynn, some friendly advice:  you gotta work on your social skills or you're going to keep getting shunned by people.

I'm done now.

Thank you for this. I was actually just doing as my lawyer suggested and contacting both Linden Labs and the current seller of this system. We will have to wait for the acquisition of their personal information in order to serve a simple, official cease and desist as my legal counsel are inn agreement there is not just evidence for current defamation but further defamation. I asked the owner of this system to settle this with me one on one and again they have refused. I requested proof that I used any such viewer and they declined to provide it and would not even name what viewer was detected or how or where it was detected at. 

With that said, Linden Labs has advised me now to:

"Rest assured, however, you do have some recourse. Firstly, leaving a calm and thorough review of the security system in question on the Marketplace listing can alert potential buyers to potential downsides to the product. Should you choose to review the product, be certain to reasonably express the issue you are experiencing."

I would like to ask, very humbly and if you would, Lindal, that you also post a review of the system's potential downsides as you see them and from YOUR point of view, not mine.

Anyone else here is invited to do the same.

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2 hours ago, Owynn said:

It's the person who runs the system that added me to it as a malicious user. Stores use this system to autoban anyone listed as a malicious user. Sooo it could be seen as defamation, etc. Because the people using the system had no idea that I was only put on that list because the creator didn't like something about it.

  • The Lab will not get into user-to-user disputes
  • The Lab will not get involved in this
  • There is no way to submit a list of viewers to the Lab
  • Even if there was there is no way the Lab can verify this outside of a few weeks
  • Landowners can and do ban people from their land for any reason - even the colour of hair
  • Landowners do form cartels that share names to ban - I am in a number of these cartels
  • Banning cartels, be it device or group, are not against TOS
  • The CDS device is not against TOS
  • The actions of the owner of that device are not against TOS
  • This is not defamation.

Importantly though - because of your stubborness here in this thread - I've gone and banned you on all my land too.

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1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

What IS (maybe) a TOS violation is that people (store owners who don't know any better) are sharing your IP information (the information the CDS system collects).  This is a case of "revealing RL information" and is a TOS violation.

I don't think CDS detects nor shares the IP address. The V2 has been on sale now for 8 years - The lab would have killed it a long time ago if it shared those details.

It's more of a "Person X has used DrakStorm - Ban them" device.

OP can *trivially* test this, make an alt and head into a store where they are banned. I'll lay money on they will be able to.

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9 minutes ago, Owynn said:

...publicly declaring you banned me from your sims...

Not against the TOS nor the CS.

  • Land owners can ban anyone they want, for any reason.
  • Land owners are free to share their ban lists with anyone.
  • Land owners are not obligated to undo bans for any reason.

Just because you don't accept the truths people mention to you doesn't make it a TOS nor CS violation.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Owynn said:

I don't need to as I never claimed they ban by IP, but as I said both of my accounts are on that list. Thanks for not reading and continuing to skirt Community Standards rules with your attitude and publicly declaring you banned me from your sims. Yes, both of those are against Community Standards.

From the CDS listing:

“It will not give you 100% protection, yet it is fairly efficient at identifying and getting rid of people running viewers with copybot/griefing functionality, spam bots, beggar bots, grid crawling bots who don't identify themselves, known sim crashers and such.”

I am wondering if “and such” includes the kind of delusional /difficult person merchants do not want to do business with. At one time there was some kind of  blacklist like that.

 

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2 minutes ago, Owynn said:

I AM SAYING that the creator and OWNER of the CDS system, the one who runs the external server that governs the list is inn violation of the TOS when he adds someone to it manually over a personal dispute which has nothing to do with griefing or copybotting with the intent to do harm or disrupt.

I fully understand what you are saying. And he is NOT in violation of the TOS in any way, shape or form.

He has absolute right to add you to his black list for any reason, including the colour of your hair.

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... after 3 pages i start to understand... imagine having this kind of discussion with everybody thats on a banlist ... hosts can't host.. creators have no time to create, landowners can't do their job, landmanagers pull their hairs out, customers leaving, and so on....... and only because it doesn't stop.

I'm nearly sure you'll be on more banllists after these postings.

 

Edited by Alwin Alcott

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16 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Not against the TOS nor the CS.

  • Land owners can ban anyone they want, for any reason.
  • Land owners are free to share their ban lists with anyone.
  • Land owners are not obligated to undo bans for any reason.

Just because you don't accept the truths people mention to you doesn't make it a TOS nor CS violation.

 

According to the CS, yes. It is. 

 

  • "Flaming, such as hostile or disruptive posts intended to incite an angry response or to encourage other users to violate Linden Lab’s policies; "

or further

  • Posting interpersonal disputes or personal negative commentary publicly when such communications should occur through private channels of communication;

So yes. If you truly felt the need to let me know I'd be banned from your land - it should have been done privately. Both of those are in the community standards and so far your comments are becoming more than repetative and serving only to negatively counter what I say, as are Pamela's posts. Also going out of your way to put negative emphasis on a word intending to provide sarcastic or demeaning inflection would also count as inflammatory. 

I've not insulted any of you and have done my best to remain civil. I'm not delusional or intentionally being difficult as Pamela is attempting to suggest. I'm here to have a discussion. This is a forum for discussion where I thought others might be civil, but I suppose that's wishful thinking when the internet fosters an apparent need in people to react to any complaint not even against them as whiny or stubborn or difficult when really they just want help. If you don't have anything constructive to say here, please don't. I find it funny that my post asking such earlier received three downvotes. 

I get it. From the basics of the CDS system, it in and of itself is not against TOS nor are Land owners using it against TOS. I never said that that was. 

 

I AM SAYING that the creator and OWNER of the CDS system, the one who runs the external server that governs the list is inn violation of the TOS when he adds someone to it manually over a personal dispute which has nothing to do with griefing or copybotting with the intent to do harm or disrupt. The two of you have CONTINUALLY avoided that point and instead asserted points of your own that I wasn't even making. If you are not going to take the time to read and understand what is being posted before you begin typing, then don't.

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