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cykarushb

Firestorm vs the LL Viewer

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Just wondering, what are your preferences for the LL viewer vs Firestorm? Is there any performance benefit for you and your hardware configuration?

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The large majority of Second Life folks use Firestorm. For me and likely for most of the others from comments made on these forums --  it is not about performance, it is about FEATURES. There are dozens of FS feature that I use everyday and do NOT want to be without. When I had to use the Linden viewer briefly to upload complex mesh (apparently that isn't something we have to do from now on --- happily) it was oh so

PAINFUL.

 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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I don't have any preferences as such, because I've always used the LL viewer (except during its v2 period) so I've nothing to compare it with. I haven't even looked at the Firestorm one.

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I have not used LL viewer since version 1.23 or even before that. I went with Emerald in 2009, until it's blockade, and shortly thereafter I moved to Phoenix viewer which evolved into Firestorm. There has been a period where Firestorm even saw better stability numbers than the LL viewer, but I don't know how that is now. Right now, it's quite simple, look and feel, and also features.

I wouldn't know where to find everything in the LL viewer, since a lot of the menu structure is different, as well as the so called 'pie menu', which isn't even a pie menu in LL viewer.

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3 minutes ago, lavalois said:

I wouldn't know where to find everything in the LL viewer, since a lot of the menu structure is different, as well as the so called 'pie menu', which isn't even a pie menu in LL viewer.

Heh. I'd forgotten the pie menus. I prefer the vertical menus, because they can contain more. But that's just me.

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The biggest problem with the secondlife viewer is the lack of functions. And a bad user interface. Especially chui is disaster in the secondlife viewer. Where i can set the firestorm chat window so it's not wasting to much space. There are no options to get it right in the secondlife viewer. Same in the build tools. something extreme imlrtant like vector copy linden lab have still not add that.

Simple, the secondlife viewer is bad user experience. But, the secondlife viewer seems better with graphics. Not tried larest firestorm. Delaying that. The current one works.

 

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Most often I use a "project" or "RC" version of the LL viewer because I'm usually testing some feature that isn't yet available in any third-party viewers. There are some useful features in Firestorm that sometimes draw me to run it -- and lately, a super useful feature in Catznip that I'm not sure how I ever lived without.

There's no noticeable performance difference among these, at least on my mid-range PC.

Regarding UI, diff'rent strokes. I chafe at the Firestorm chat windows, much preferring the way the Linden (and Catznip) viewers handle chat. But all these viewers have so many different user-configurable options that some ideal setting may be available but never discovered.

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I like them both and believe they are both great viewers.

Though as has been stated: it's a feature issue and really nothing more than that. I use firestorm for two features not available in the LL version - the rest I like, but can easily live without. I survive crowded places with the Keyword Alert feature so I know when my name is mentioned in chat. But the dealbreaker is the RLV function (no, I'm not one of those) - I use the Mesh Outfitter to manage my wardrobes and love it. And it requires RLV to make that magic happen. LL viewer does not and likely will never have direct RLV support.

Edited by Alyona Su
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I use them both regularly. Contrary to what many people seem to believe, the rendering part of the viewer software is exactly the same for both. Any differences there are because of different default settings for various preferences.

The main difference between the two is that Firestorm has a lot of extra bells and whistles for the user to play with. They add a little bit to the overall laod of course but usually not enough to make a sigificant difference. More important perhaps, is that all those extra functions add to the confusion of an already seriously messed up user interface.

My best advice is that if you actually need and use many of those extra functions often, go for Firestorm. If not, stick to the official viewer and perhaps switch to Fs occasionally if/when you need one of the extras.

And of course, every now and then one of the developer teams releases a version with some serious bugs. It doesn't happen often anymore but when it does, switch to the other one until it's been sorted out.

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On 1/28/2018 at 4:52 PM, cykarushb said:

Just wondering, what are your preferences for the LL viewer vs Firestorm? Is there any performance benefit for you and your hardware configuration?

Linden Labs Second life viewer is like Microsoft Windows 10 force fed constant spammed updates that break everything and lag everything etc also this viewer cannot render mesh nor high quality objects etc avoid at all costs defective they also added new script that prevented it from running to much crapware

https://secondlife.com/support/downloads/

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1004600/geforce-drivers/all-games-stuttering-with-fps-drops-since-windows-10-creators-update/

Discontinued support

Nvidia announced that after Release 390 drivers, Nvidia will no longer release 32-bit drivers for 32-bit operating systems.

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4604/

Linden Labs released an update viewer software that is not even supported by hardware manufacturers anymore bravo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_10_series#Discontinued_support

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1035590/geforce-drivers/official-390-77-game-ready-whql-display-driver-feedback-thread-released-1-29-18-/1/

http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us

at this current time 84.88% of user's are nvidia

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

 

Firestorm releases updates so slow I haven't noticed much any issues or problems yet plus it is 64-bit it renders allot faster smoother higher quality I haven't tried current release yet.....

cons are the ui & settings has to be set up every single install a pita shame this doesn't save server side I requested the same in Final Fantasy XIV returning player and no hot bar like gee thanks for nothing why don't i just log back out and save my self the trouble waste a good month fixing hot bars in Final Fantasy XIV firestorm 30 minutes maybe?

http://www.firestormviewer.org/downloads/

Edited by iceing Braveheart
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I use a lot of the Firestorm features, but one of the biggies for me is the ability to increase my texture cache.  My graphics card has far more than 512 MB on it so I might as well take advantage of that.  I pretty much never have texture thrashing issues any more when using Firestorm, but that doesn't hold true if I spend much time logged in and bouncing around the grid with the LL viewer.

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LL viewer is so limited, there is no quick prefs, can not resize Camera/walk. The chat box is just an untidy mess. I downloades LL viewer a few weeks ago. Speed Graphics wise there is no diffwerece betwwn the two. FS wins hands down on the interface and adjustments to settings.

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39 minutes ago, iceing Braveheart said:

Linden Labs Second life viewer is like Microsoft Windows 10 force fed constant spammed updates that break everything and lag everything etc also this viewer cannot render mesh nor high quality objects etc avoid at all costs defective they also added new script that prevented it from running to much crapware

It seems to work fine, the updates are a lot of small things but you can always just disable updates. Ive had them disabled recently due to the bug where it seemingly updates every time you run it. Just because there are no modern driver updates doesnt mean the current drivers arent going to work anymore. Really you dont need the most up to date drivers for a GPU unless theres some serious flaws at launch, which does happen sometimes but those are fixed quickly.

I also dont use Windows 10, i still use 8.1 and never had any issues with bloatware since updates got backburnered like a year after its release.

Quote

Nvidia announced that after Release 390 drivers, Nvidia will no longer release 32-bit drivers for 32-bit operating systems.

Linden Labs released an update viewer software that is not even supported by hardware manufacturers anymore bravo

To be fair, usually after a few driver updates in, they start fixing very small unimportant things. I understand the drop of support for 32 bit operating systems especially for 10 series graphics cards simply because nobody should still be using a 32 bit OS as their "daily driver" anymore, and definitely not with a 10 series graphics card. Whats even a 1030 going to do on a system limited to 4gb of ram? LL will still release 32 bit updates for all those people who are still using the 32 bit client on 32 bit operating systems. Very few people on SL are using 10 series graphics cards but even then this doesnt really affect them, they just dont get any more GPU updates. Thats not going to break SL or break their GPU.

 

I was looking mainly for information regarding general performance, i personally like the LL viewer because its what ive always used, and im not a fan of the transition going to firestorms UI. However because i have a fairly low end computer, if there was a difference in performance over the LL viewer id be more interested. From what people are saying here the actual framerate, loading times and overall performance boost is either nonexistent or minimal at best. I dont really use the advance building features that FS has, and most of its little tweaks are things i can do in the LL viewer if needed, although not as easily. From what ive read here, to me its not really worth moving to a different UI, i was looking for better framerate.

In the end with my own testing of the LL viewer vs FS i got a literal 1fps performance increase on average with the same settings enabled in 1080p. What i noticed was that FS eats up a lot of ram for those tweaks that it has. And while for someone with 12 or 16gb of ram the extra 1gb it uses isnt a big deal, for me and my 8gb toaster oven from 2006/2007, it starts digging into excessive ram usage over the LL viewer which usually tops out at about 1.5gb for me.

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you miss understood

http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us

go through the link it is not 10 series it was only posted on that page it is 32-bit discontinued now and forever i hope this clears things up better

http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4604/

End of NVIDIA Driver Support for 32-bit Operating Systems

Answer ID 4604
Updated 12/21/2017 04:23 PM

When is the NVIDIA driver ending support for 32-bit operating systems?


After Release 390, NVIDIA will no longer release drivers for 32-bit operating systems1 for any GPU architecture. Later driver release versions will not operate, nor install, on 32-bit operating systems. Driver enhancements, driver optimizations, and operating system features in driver versions after Release 390 will not be incorporated back into Release 390 or earlier versions. This impacts the following operating systems:

  • Microsoft Windows 7
  • Microsoft Windows 8/8.1
  • Microsoft Windows 10
  • Linux
  • FreeBSD
Edited by iceing Braveheart
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Well even then, its not a big deal. You just dont get any more updates.

Doesnt mean the GPU is not going to work, just means you wont get any more new additions or fixes.

LL still has a 32 bit viewer and will still release updates for it because people still use it. Just because Nvidia is no longer doing stuff for 32 bit operating systems doesnt mean the rest of the entire computer marketspace is going to stop supporting 32 bit.

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5 hours ago, cykarushb said:

In the end with my own testing of the LL viewer vs FS i got a literal 1fps performance increase on average with the same settings enabled in 1080p. What i noticed was that FS eats up a lot of ram for those tweaks that it has. And while for someone with 12 or 16gb of ram the extra 1gb it uses isnt a big deal, for me and my 8gb toaster oven from 2006/2007, it starts digging into excessive ram usage over the LL viewer which usually tops out at about 1.5gb for me.

I never tested firestorm in my old pc that had a onboard nvidia gpu before it fried like am omelet only sl viewer it was awful overheats melts Chernobyl's motherboard and onboard gpu and cpu temps just explode and it just fries and fps tank with the heat and then system freezes crashes also sl viewer phenom 2 vs i7 run same for fps sl viewer nvidia 460 vs nvidia 780 same fps money doesn't really benefit second life viewer much in the hardware department tested on win 7 very long time ago

i prefer firestorm for high end performance never tried with low end hardware and i am still running that same old i7 and 780

memory usage is due to 64-bit support for more then 2GB memory, you could try 32-bit viewers they will still average 1.5GB always and forever and then crash lag out etc due to 32-bit memory limitations you cannot get around memory limitations just like when you installed vista 7 8 10 etc no more 16MB for Windows XP

i am not sure what the viewer used for me i think only 2GB? on firestorm not sure maybe up 3-4? not sure but that is normal

8Gb is only a problem due to Microsoft Windows being pigs on memory vista 7 8 10 etc upwards you will want 4GB and allot more just run the the operating system alone unoptimally with out use windows 7-10 average 2-3+GB with nothing running and just basic drivers and no software installed for me if you install anti virus etc it will eat up much more memory for everything you install until there is nothing left when you run out of memory system will use your hard disk drive as memory and it will run like molasses and probably post out of memory errors

it sounds like you are over due for a hardware upgrade nothing short of installing windows xp will get memory usage down that or maybe linux though i don't use linux so cannot comment on linux

5 hours ago, cykarushb said:

It seems to work fine, the updates are a lot of small things but you can always just disable updates. Ive had them disabled recently due to the bug where it seemingly updates every time you run it.

I don't think you can prolong those updates long enough before they are mandatory force fed updates before login, most if not all updates for the linden labs viewer are sold advertised in a form of fleecing campaign with no real benefit to the end user 99.99% of the time or more also there is no option to choose and download older previously released builds

5 hours ago, cykarushb said:

Just because Nvidia is no longer doing stuff for 32 bit operating systems doesnt mean the rest of the entire computer marketspace is going to stop supporting 32 bit.

32-bit the crutch of software developers

https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/24/nvidia-is-gearing-up-to-end-32-bit-os-support/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/year-2038-problem

 

Edited by iceing Braveheart
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I can't use the SLV (SecondLife Viewer) because RLV is a critical dependency for my wardrobe management.  Firestorm hits all the buttons for me as a mesh maker (not for sale).

One thing I noticed reading through this thread.  There is confusion about 32-bit vs 64-bit....

Just because your OS is 64 bits (inc. the device drivers), it doesn't stop you using a 32-bit application provided the 32-bit compatibility libraries are loaded.  So nVidia ceasing support for 32-bit OS, and LL still shipping a 32-bit app are not necessarily incompatible issues.  I run the 32-bit SLV on my 64-bit Linux with nVidia 390 without any issues when I need a Havok uploader.  Of course, if you can't get the 32-bit compatibility libraries (and some OS's, like Ubuntu, hide them) then you are stuffed - Duck-Duck-Go is your friend.

 

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Not to necro this thread back into existence but...

I've tried a few of the viewers out there, and as a Macbook Pro user the best two were Firestorm and the default LL viewer. All the rest were buggy and/or laggy as all hell. 

Firestorm however has become extremely laggy and memory-hogging as of late. I had Activity Monitor running and Firestorm was using a whopping six gigabytes out of the total eight gigabytes that I have of memory. That should never be  happening no matter what settings I used (and mine are on the lowest you can get, with hardware skinning and avatar cloth enabled as the only fancy things so my avatar can look normal). It also caused my laptop to severely overheat. I may go back to the default LL viewer but unfortunately it doesn't cooperate well with some of the objects in a club that I like to dance at. 

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15 hours ago, ChibiDragon007 said:

Not to necro this thread back into existence but...

I've tried a few of the viewers out there, and as a Macbook Pro user the best two were Firestorm and the default LL viewer. All the rest were buggy and/or laggy as all hell. 

Firestorm however has become extremely laggy and memory-hogging as of late. I had Activity Monitor running and Firestorm was using a whopping six gigabytes out of the total eight gigabytes that I have of memory. That should never be  happening no matter what settings I used (and mine are on the lowest you can get, with hardware skinning and avatar cloth enabled as the only fancy things so my avatar can look normal). It also caused my laptop to severely overheat. I may go back to the default LL viewer but unfortunately it doesn't cooperate well with some of the objects in a club that I like to dance at. 

Not all viewers are available for macOS. Though with that said, I agree: Firestorm is the best third-party viewer for macOS, though official LL viewer is even better. But if you need RLV then Firestorm is it (and RLV is more useful than just BDSM collars, folks LOL). I use a new MacBook Pro (four-core version) at work and SL "screams" on it, even Firestorm.

Though on my PC at home, Firestorm is just a bloated pig (for me). As for the (necro'd) comment above about the "majority of SL users use Firestorm" because it's about "features, not performance": Not true. They use it because people camp at the new user landing zone and tell new users they should use it. Most people I speak to about it tell me that and they say they've never tinkered with most of the feature other than graphics settings. ~laughs~

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2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Not all viewers are available for macOS. Though with that said, I agree: Firestorm is the best third-party viewer for macOS, though official LL viewer is even better. But if you need RLV then Firestorm is it (and RLV is more useful than just BDSM collars, folks LOL). I use a new MacBook Pro (four-core version) at work and SL "screams" on it, even Firestorm.

Though on my PC at home, Firestorm is just a bloated pig (for me). As for the (necro'd) comment above about the "majority of SL users use Firestorm" because it's about "features, not performance": Not true. They use it because people camp at the new user landing zone and tell new users they should use it. Most people I speak to about it tell me that and they say they've never tinkered with most of the feature other than graphics settings. ~laughs~

Firestorm is definitely the best out of the ones I tried, though again  it is a monster memory hog. Even with settings pulled as low as humanly possible and with barely any fancy graphics enabled save for avatar complexity so I don't resemble a humanoid blob... I still get very poor FPS and my MacBook Pro heats up like hell. I'm not sure what is causing  it and I've been trying  other viewers. Singularity refuses to open at all. Alchemy was alright, might go back to that if anything else. But if I could fix this stupid Firestorm issue it would be wonderful. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, ChibiDragon007 said:

Firestorm is definitely the best out of the ones I tried, though again  it is a monster memory hog. Even with settings pulled as low as humanly possible and with barely any fancy graphics enabled save for avatar complexity so I don't resemble a humanoid blob... I still get very poor FPS and my MacBook Pro heats up like hell. I'm not sure what is causing  it and I've been trying  other viewers. Singularity refuses to open at all. Alchemy was alright, might go back to that if anything else. But if I could fix this stupid Firestorm issue it would be wonderful. 

3

Everyone's experience is different on the same viewer, a lot of it has to do with system configuration. Like I said, I use it on the newest four-core MacBook Pro (only two or three months old now?) - where it sounds like you have an older version - there's a big difference there. On my PC at home though Firestorm, for me, constantly runs out of memory and freezes after a few hours (and rezzing speed and frame rates progressively get slower and slower as time ticks toward that forced relog).

It's why I've gone with another viewer entirely at home.

In your case, if you're dead-set on Firestorm (nothing wrong with that, of course) then you need to find your own cause and solution. Even if it means a new laptop because FS has out-developed past your current configuration capabilities (just a random hypothetical there). It is unlikely anyone will be able to help you. Though if LL chooses to support macOS Metal (and FS adopts it) then you'll get a major frame rate boost (and I will be jealous as a Windows user at the power boost of that for graphics).

Unoptimized, sloppy, oversized textures in world downloading is another matter all its own.

Edited by Alyona Su

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1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Everyone's experience is different on the same viewer, a lot of it has to do with system configuration. Like I said, I use it on the newest four-core MacBook Pro (only two or three months old now?) - where it sounds like you have an older version - there's a big difference there. On my PC at home though Firestorm, for me, constantly runs out of memory and freezes after a few hours (and rezzing speed and frame rates progressively get slower and slower as time ticks toward that forced relog).

It's why I've gone with another viewer entirely at home.

In your case, if you're dead-set on Firestorm (nothing wrong with that, of course) then you need to find your own cause and solution. Even if it means a new laptop because FS has out-developed past your current configuration capabilities (just a random hypothetical there). It is unlikely anyone will be able to help you. Though if LL chooses to support macOS Metal (and FS adopts it) then you'll get a major frame rate boost (and I will be jealous as a Windows user at the power boost of that for graphics).

Unoptimized, sloppy, oversized textures in world downloading is another matter all its own.

My MacBook is a late 2016 model with Touch  Bar. 

As you can see from the screenshots with Firestorm running it uses up almost all of the 8gb of memory on my system. Then there's the second image which shows how steep the drop in memory usage was after I shut Firestorm off. I'm pretty sure it's an issue related to Firestorm somewhere  because even other games I can run on my MacBook should not be using that much memory at ALL. 

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 2.10.22 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 2.19.10 PM.png

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51 minutes ago, ChibiDragon007 said:

My MacBook is a late 2016 model with Touch  Bar. 

As you can see from the screenshots with Firestorm running it uses up almost all of the 8gb of memory on my system. Then there's the second image which shows how steep the drop in memory usage was after I shut Firestorm off. I'm pretty sure it's an issue related to Firestorm somewhere  because even other games I can run on my MacBook should not be using that much memory at ALL. 

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 2.10.22 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-10-05 at 2.19.10 PM.png

Wow. 0.o

I'm not a technical person, but I must say that seeing the graphical representation of a description really drives home the weight of seriousness of said description. Thank you for sharing that!

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