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Nikolai Warden

Question Regarding Child Avatar

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I have read the TOS, and have long known that child avatars are permitted (at sim owner discretion) on adult rated sims. My question has to do with the bit about proximity to sex scripted objects.  Just how far away must a child avatar be from such an object without violating TOS? For example, if I have a sex bed and a friend wearing a toddler avatar visits in the living room, 10 meters away from the bed, is that far enough away? If I have a large house or skybox with several bedrooms, is down the hall far enough away?

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Just my opinion, but common sense would suggest that the child avatar and the object would need to be in the same line of sight before there could be a problem.   

If the child avatar is in one room and the sex bed is in another, and the bed is not being used at the time, and everything is entirely innocent, I wouldn't think there should be a problem.

But that's simply my take on it.  It's LL's view that counts, of course.   

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Simple answer: The lab don't codify a distance.

In practice: Toddlers in people's homes are ok, even if mom and dad have a sex bed in their room, even if toddler is in the bedroom (as long as mom and dad are not doing the naughty that is).

The trouble in homes comes if the kid gets on the bed. Outside the home it's different, and there the toddler should be well away from such devices.

And as for the rest of this thread that will surely follow:

images.duckduckgo_com.png.3296aa0ae08dbca226f243ba80d056f0.png

Edited by Callum Meriman
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There is no hard and fast rule that I know of.  No exact distance for one thing and what constitutes a sex animation for that matter.  It is all up to the discretion of the Linden that picks up the complaint and what was reported.  Use your own judgement, but as long as you aren't doing anything stupid you should be fine.

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It's a very good question, to which I don't have an answer. But I do suggest accepting the answers that Innula and Callum gave. They seem to be very sensible.

I would think that it would depend on why the child av was in close proximity. For instance, when I had the furniture store, I had  plenty of sexbeds in it. Once in a while I'd see a child av in the store. What I used to do was watch them to make sure that nothing untoward happened. They sometimes looked around the sex bed area but, unless they got on one, I just kept my eye on them. None of them ever got on one, and, during the times when I watched, no adult avatars were ever around.

I don't know if I did it the right way or not though - probably not - but it seems to me that the reason why a child av is in close proximity to a sex piece makes a difference. An example would be what Callum described - a home.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Theres is a huge gray area...

The short answer is that nobody knows how close a child avatar can be to an adult-object.

Could be meters? feet? Or within draw distance? But all of that is relative..

So nobody knows :)

 

PERSONALLY I think it doesnt matter.. As long as they dont ''use'' the adult-object.

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On 1/24/2018 at 12:43 AM, Nikolai Warden said:

I have read the TOS, and have long known that child avatars are permitted (at sim owner discretion) on adult rated sims. My question has to do with the bit about proximity to sex scripted objects.  Just how far away must a child avatar be from such an object without violating TOS? For example, if I have a sex bed and a friend wearing a toddler avatar visits in the living room, 10 meters away from the bed, is that far enough away? If I have a large house or skybox with several bedrooms, is down the hall far enough away?

There's no specific distance, and you won't see any Lindens running around with rulers to measure the distance between a child avi and certain objects, just as there's no actual measure of whether an object is adult or PG (just look at the marketplace, you'll find plenty of G-rated furniture that has blatant sex animations and A-rated items that haven't really got anything to do with anything.). 

In the end, LL doesn't sit hawk-watching child avatars any more than they do anyone else. Unless there is at least one complaint filed, there will be no consequence. If you really wanted to, you could do -absolutely whatever- you'd want to or with a child avatar as long as it isn't in a public space wherein anyone may take offense to the point of filing a complaint. 

That said, the obvious way to go about it would be to not allow child avatars on your adult sim - as many don't - because children should by no means and under no circumstances be sexualized or objectified. 

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In a personal house on an adult sim I think there isn't really a distance requirement. If you have just a basic looking house, avatars that are dressed normally and avatars behaving normally there shouldn't be any concern.

I think there are people who like to spy on others with the excuse that they are upholding morality or are looking for tos violations. No they're not. They are just peeping creeps.

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On 1/25/2018 at 6:17 PM, Orwar said:

That said, the obvious way to go about it would be to not allow child avatars on your adult sim - as many don't - because children should by no means and under no circumstances be sexualized or objectified. 

It's always worth keeping mind though that "Adult rating" and "sex" aren't mutually exclusive. While it's really likely to be there, there are adult sims with no objectionable sexual content. The presence of a child avatar on an adult sim doesn't automatically sexualize them.

As noted, it's a gray area that all revolves around purpose and reason. If you don't have a family or any reason to exercise restrain but a child simply came over, at worst you should maybe move the part so that they wouldn't be in a position to interact with the content. But as long as it isn't an active brothel, you're probably fine and the kid would probably never know. Just remember though that you are putting yourself into this situation. If a friend and their kid come over and you aren't comfortable with it, why not head to a zoo or something instead and thus not out yourself into this position.

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I think it’s really putting in more work than is necessary, but if you want, you could also swap your bed for a PG one when kids are over.

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The Lindens are not policing this anyway.

I have seen worse things on the grid during my researches about *****, than a toddler near a sex bed. Trust me.

Actually I wanted to write about that topic in depth but decided not to, because the material I collected is deemed illegal in the country I am living in.

Hence as long as you behave and stay dressed there should be no issues.

 

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1 hour ago, carolinestravels said:

The Lindens are not policing this anyway.

I have seen worse things on the grid during my researches about *****, than a toddler near a sex bed. Trust me.

Actually I wanted to write about that topic in depth but decided not to, because the material I collected is deemed illegal in the country I am living in.

Hence as long as you behave and stay dressed there should be no issues.

 

Linden Lab does police this.

While I could understand that it can appear that the Lindens do not police stuff where no visible actions are taken, unlike situations where they may have to send Governor Linden to return griefer stuff, I can assure you, the Lindens are hard at work going though the Abuse Reports, and are issuing suspensions and bans to those whom violate the ToS/CS. Any Abuse Report about such actions are well appreciated!

If you see a child avatar participating in or within proximity of adult content(This includes Textures, Shared Media, Mesh and Mesh animations, Avatar animations, and even role play), you should file an Abuse Report. However, sometimes this is uncontrollable(EG: Doing something else while waiting for a login to go through and ending up at a adult safehub due to a downed sim, or arriving at a sim where this content is unknown to occur), and they should be given at least a chance to change their avatar in some situations. Basically what I am saying is, don't snipe report them the second they enter a sim because they often change their avatars a few seconds later, or leave as soon as they see it.

If you see anything that violates the Terms of Service or Community Standards, please report that resident or the offending objects, as it helps keep the grid clean(of griefers) and safe!

Edited by Chaser Zaks
Untangling my sentances
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On 2/11/2018 at 5:56 AM, Chaser Zaks said:

Linden Lab does police this.

While I could understand that it can appear that the Lindens do not police stuff where no visible actions are taken, unlike situations where they may have to send Governor Linden to return griefer stuff, I can assure you, the Lindens are hard at work going though the Abuse Reports, and are issuing suspensions and bans to those whom violate the ToS/CS. Any Abuse Report about such actions are well appreciated!

If you see a child avatar participating in or within proximity of adult content(This includes Textures, Shared Media, Mesh and Mesh animations, Avatar animations, and even role play), you should file an Abuse Report. However, sometimes this is uncontrollable(EG: Doing something else while waiting for a login to go through and ending up at a adult safehub due to a downed sim, or arriving at a sim where this content is unknown to occur), and they should be given at least a chance to change their avatar in some situations. Basically what I am saying is, don't snipe report them the second they enter a sim because they often change their avatars a few seconds later, or leave as soon as they see it.

If you see anything that violates the Terms of Service or Community Standards, please report that resident or the offending objects, as it helps keep the grid clean(of griefers) and safe!

My guess is that Linden Lab only polices what is reported to them.  At least that is my opinion.  They could have someone(s) assigned to seek and destroy this stuff but I kind of doubt it.  I also doubt that they would admit to us if they did.

But as to the OP's question, the answer would be how you define the word "proximity."

" Yes, child avatars are allowed in Adult regions, as long as they are controlled by a person who has verified themselves to be at least 18 years old. However, the avatar should not be in proximity to sexual content or activity; and must obey the policy prohibiting sexual *****. "

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Content_FAQ#Are_child_avatars_allowed_on_Adult_regions.3F

" Promoting or catering to such behavior or representations violates our Community Standards. For instance, the placement of avatars appearing to represent minors in proximity to "sex beds" or other sexualized graphics, objects, or scripts would violate our Community Standards, as would the placement of sexualized "pose balls" or other content in areas depicting playgrounds or children's spaces. "

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

Is being in the same home with a sex bed "proximity?" Only a Linden could say for sure.  I would think being in the same room would be.

Personally, based on some stories I have heard, i get the idea that the Lindens offer no leniency or mercy in this category.

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Do not allow yourself to have a snapshot taken where you and the object are both in frame and can be seen at the same time.

That really is the point of all of this. You don't want a snapshot of a child standing next to some bondage thing, for example, and suddenly that picture is on the news. Who cares if you aren’t using it, it still looks terrible out of context.

Personally I’d advise just not going to adult sims, though. Most I’ve seen really have no place for child avatars. Anything can be made to look bad out of context, and out of context in an Adult region is all you need to get banned.

Edited by Adeon Writer
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On 1/23/2018 at 10:18 PM, Lucia Nightfire said:

Place your bets how many pages this thread can rack up before the door closes.

Surprising I thought it would take off..guess not. From what I can tell LL has what I call three monkey policy: Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil. If one follows that premise should be OK. This topic gets about as much taboo as Copy Bots...

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Maybe I can help with getting this thread to go nuts... :P

 

On 2/13/2018 at 9:25 AM, Adeon Writer said:

Do not allow yourself to have a snapshot taken where you and the object are both in frame and can be seen at the same time.

That really is the point of all of this. You don't want a snapshot of a child standing next to some bondage thing, for example, and suddenly that picture is on the news. Who cares if you aren’t using it, it still looks terrible out of context.

This can get a little tricky.

There are a LOT of people in SL who, as long as they're on an M or A sim, are always nude. Walking about normally and fully within the ToS. It's easy enough to have an encounter just occur if somebody isn't minding where they are.

In many A sims, adult furniture is out there in the outdoors, and may be in active use... situations could occur.

When I happen to see a child AV on a sim where I am there and not possessed of clothing, I keep my distance and my actions focused on my purpose for being there (am I there buying something - go straight for it, get it, and leave).

That noted - while Child AVs can be on A rated land, I have not personally encountered one, and I've been living on Zindra since about 2009. I have 2 Child AV users on my friends list. One is a well respected member of Bay City who I don't think ever goes to A rated places. The other - I've known since I was a PG only user, but haven't spoken to in years... But she gives me insight into the flip side of this...
- when she bought her first plot of land, back in 2009... she had found the perfect spot, and was all happy building as wonderful a dollhouse as a brand new SL user could figure out... then she logged in the next day and her neighbors were a human, a neko, and a dog furry... and the human was directing the other two in a sex scene... and this was back before you could block sight or even sound of nearby parcels... and they were using very LOUD sound effects...
... so I get this pannicked IM about what to do... I help her find a new parcel in a sim a few sims deep into G-rated sims, with a neighbor that is also a child AV... and show how to short sell land to a land baron, despite the loss...

I do wonder if the other people didn't do what they did knowing their new neighbor was a child AV... essentially griefing her.

I mention this because these threads always seem to want to sound accusing of those 'naughty child AVs messing up our scene' - but quite often the panic here is mutual.

 

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17 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

naughty child AVs messing up our scene

IMO if a child avatar is on adult land, any situation violating the TOS should be fully that child avatar accounts responsibility. Even if they go there to pick flowers and pet unicorns, if something happens there it should be on them. They are adult people and know what SL is about, and what adult sims can contain. If they choose to visit adult sims, the responsibility and with that the risks, should be on them alone.

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On 1/23/2018 at 6:43 PM, Nikolai Warden said:

I have read the TOS, and have long known that child avatars are permitted (at sim owner discretion) on adult rated sims. My question has to do with the bit about proximity to sex scripted objects.  Just how far away must a child avatar be from such an object without violating TOS? For example, if I have a sex bed and a friend wearing a toddler avatar visits in the living room, 10 meters away from the bed, is that far enough away? If I have a large house or skybox with several bedrooms, is down the hall far enough away?

I have seen child avatars on adult sims plenty of times and usually, there are specific height and physical requirements (IE: NO CHILD AVI'S ALLOWED) on those sims that are usually set in place.  I just leave it to one of the sim moderators and leave it at that.

Personally, if it's an adult sim and there's no such rules set, ... I stop what I'm doing, dress back up and have a chat with the person while politely asking them to head off the sim.

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What defines a "sex bed", then.  By a look, how do you tell it's a sex bed.  Yes, if there's whips and chains around, and St. Andrew's cross and the like, then yeah.  But I have seen "baby girl" rooms, that are all sweet and pink and fluffy, yet have adult animations.  or Beach towels, or logs or the like.  Note, I am NOT a Linden, but if a child is sitting on a bed, just sitting.  Or being cuddled by mom (the SAME pose as would be used in any other child's equipment)...I should say it should be "acceptable" as long as extreme care is taken not to move such animation to an adult-themed one, or that could be perceived as such.

 

There are many beds (and other furniture) being sold in PG and A versions...do we need to put a scarlet A on the ones that are bad? (or a G on the ones that are G-rated?).

 

Now, conversely...if a room is decorated for, and is used "exclusively" by a child avatar....THEN I would think, if a piece of furniture has an adult animation in it...then it should be...well, that's quirky.

 

Yes, it has come down to "one bad apple" (or in this case, those that do, and those who imagine that it does happen)...But, honestly, why go looking for it to happen?  It should be the actions of the child avatar, and those around them.  My understanding is, a child avatar can be on a nude sim (like nude beaches or nude living areas in RL)...as long as no adult behavior happens.  If a child walks in, say, to where a couple are doing sexualized activity...they should be able to turn and walk away (tp away/etc) if it is a sim that it is allowed.  Conversely...if a child is there, and the couple starts it..that should not be allowed, but yet, also, the child should know to move away.  (in this example, I was thinking of a Moderate market that I owned.  children and Goreans both came to the market to shop.  If a Master and slave were there, the slave kneeling, topless, lets say, and the child tp's in...they should have moved to another area, or left, as that activity happened first.  However, if a child is shopping, and a Master and slave came in, then she knelt, and started to state all the things she could do with the fruit, for example...well, the responsibility just fell on the adult.  Although...again, the child should either inform them, or take themselves away, to prevent any miscommunication or misunderstanding that could result in them leaving.

 

There are many groups, that are pg in nature, yet the conversations can get rather adult (gacha conversations, animal/food conversations, cat conversations, I imagine horse and other animal conversations)...In those groups, I know children either do not converse, or learn how to deflect the conversation.

 

Yes, this comes around over and over...but a lot of it is the 'squick' nature.  I get a lot going "I could never do that", referring to a child avatar, yet they do furry, or elf, or BDSM, or Gor...and it's funny, from the child side, I get a lot of the same comments in reverse.  I think most of this is just...you develop your SL life, let others run with theirs.  Too many seek to control others' SL life (and RL, also).  Remember, that SL person that you are talking to, or picking on, or whatever, could be your next door neighbor, your friend, in some cases, could even be a relative, and you may not even know it!

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On 2/27/2018 at 3:25 PM, Zeta Vandyke said:

IMO if a child avatar is on adult land, any situation violating the TOS should be fully that child avatar accounts responsibility.

Oh I agree with that. My intention in my comment wasn't to imply otherwise. For context on the story I told - that was someone new to SL on old mainland. Basically she joined SL, got a premium account, and looked up how to buy land. Then she bought a spot on a nice open field.

I got there and saw it differently... I saw "you bought a 512m lot in the middle of a pile of 512s and micro-cuts, and some people bought the spot next to you and are now doing 'special acts with an animal' (the animal avatar was an animal furry... not a humanoid furry...) with the sound up... by the way this spot in M land - we can't report them because they put 4 prims around their build like a wall...

- now... what she also hadn't factored was land and parcel shape. Her cut was oddly shaped, as was theirs, and basically no matter what camera angle she used, the camera would pop out of her spot and into theirs...

This was in the months before Zindra and A land were added to SL.

 

 

My experience has been that for every story of a child avatar 'raising heck' on somebody's A-rated parcel, you can likely find 2 stories of other people "righteously hassling the child pervs" that are actually just people trying to do innocent things...

- Which is something I ALSO see in relation to how people blame furries for everything that they aren't blaming child AVs for...

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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On 2/27/2018 at 7:38 PM, Kittyn Fuhr said:

What defines a "sex bed", then.  By a look, how do you tell it's a sex bed.

If I get on that bed and the menu that I get has options like 'cowgirl' and 'rough doggy'... this is probably NOT in relation to female ranchers or sled dogs...

It is SL... so it could be... but I'm guessing the animation I will get will be something else...

 

 

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On 1/23/2018 at 7:17 PM, Callum Meriman said:

In practice: Toddlers in people's homes are ok, even if mom and dad have a sex bed in their room, even if toddler is in the bedroom (as long as mom and dad are not doing the naughty that is).

Just like in real life, my real kids can come in my room, but not when hubby and i are in there doing things they should not be around.

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36 minutes ago, CheriColette said:

Yes but Talli, your rl kids cant see through walls.

But her rl kids aren't in truth adults, that chose a childlike apperance.

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