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20 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

s direct them to a concise explanation of why no-mod is almost always a poor choice. If we could get customers to send that sentiment for every no-mod purchase, it would at least counterbalance the lazy argument that "mod perm requires more support." Instead make those creators support their dumb no-mod decision

 I agree that no mod is “ almost always a poor choice.” So why are people making that choice? Why should customers “send that sentiment for every no mod purchase” when they should not be purchasing no mod items at all? How do you propose to “make creators support their dumb decision” ? Creators are free to make whatever they want, and buyers are free to buy or not. It is buyers who determine supply because they determine demand.  Supply depends on demand, demand does not depend on supply.  No demand no supply. It is the decision to buy no mod that drives the no mod market. 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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7 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 So why are people making that choice? 

I don't think customers are making the choice to buy no mod. They are making the choice to buy the item because they like it and want it, and then they (disappointedly) just accept and put up with it being no mod.

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41 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

I don't think customers are making the choice to buy no mod. They are making the choice to buy the item because they like it and want it, and then they (disappointedly) just accept and put up with it being no mod.

This, combined with the fact that for some things there is almost no market available with mod permissions.  Female mesh clothing is a fine example.  I'd love to be able to drop an auto-hide script into many things and/or rename them, but I cannot with the vast majority of mesh clothing that is available for Maitreya.  Thus I really have no alternative if I wish to not wear the same thing every day and don't want to learn everything required to create stuff myself.

Granted, because of the no-mod, I have already drastically reduced the amount of clothing that I purchase, relying on group/hunt freebies/cheapies to supplement much of my wardrobe.  Yet when I do actually want to buy something new, I don't really have any 'mod' choices.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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30 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

They are making the choice to buy the item because they like it and want it,

Yep, that's me.

 

31 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

and then they (disappointedly) just accept and put up with it being no mod.

No, you lost me on that part. I have never been disappointed to learn that something I bought was no mod nor is it something I have to put up with any more than I have to put up with the scroll lock key on my keyboard..

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 I agree that no mod is almost always a poor choice. So why are people making that choice? Why should customers send that sentiment for every no mod purchases when they should not be purchasing no mod items at all? How do you propose to make creators support their dumb decision ? Creators in my opinion are free to make whatever they want, and buyers are free to buy or not. It is buyers who determine supply because they determine demand.  Supply depends on demand, demand does not depend on supply.  No demand no supply. It is the decision to buy no mod that drives the no mod market. 

Customers make bad choices when the injury is much delayed from the time of purchase. Buying no-mod content is like buying cigarettes; Penny is just trying to affix the surgeon general's warning labels.

Just in passing because it's so beside the point: supply and demand are intimately interdependent. The ability of supply to drive demand is half of how markets work. This is particularly evident in substitutable commodity industries such as energy, or even better, agriculture. When there's a pork belly glut, people eat a lot more bacon. And at least half the advertising industry is devoted to promoting demand to sop up excess supply. But none of this is really relevant to this discussion -- and that's my point: this spurious supply/demand distinction has no basis in reality, so it can't support or refute any side of any discussion.

And anyway, I'm still waiting to hear from that customer demanding content be no-mod, lest they hurt themselves with the Edit Tool.

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Okay well I give up. Keep lecturing creators on what they should create, see how much change that effects. 

PS No matter how many buggy whips you supply, the demand will not be affected. The lack of demand for buggy whips, however, has drastically affected the supply.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040815/demand-or-supply-more-important-economy.asp

Consumers, then, dictate which products are produced and sold by creating the demand for companies to supply with goods and services.”

 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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18 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Penny is just trying to affix the surgeon general's warning labels.

Warning labels are for BUYERS, not the producers! You are making my point.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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Of course we should target customers, too. But once those customers understand how they've been deprived by no-mod content, they need to put pressure back on the merchants who distribute the no-mod wares, to let them know why their content is no longer favored and how easily they could recover their reputation and business. But those suppliers will never even know how much better their business could be unless customers and prospective customers tell them what they're doing wrong.

Edited by Qie Niangao
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25 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

But once those customers understand how they've been deprived by no-mod content, they need to put pressure back on the merchants who distribute the no-mod wares,

You have a massive chasm of apathy to bridge before I (a no-mod customer) decide to "put pressure" anywhere on your behalf.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  I don't care if it is mod or no-mod.  I am now leaning pro no-mod just because I am tired of hearing a few people make a fuss over a non-issue (to me) and expecting the whole of SL should acquiesce to their whims about  how they feel SL should be ran and how permissions should be transferred.  I don't like being told what I should do and since it does not matter in the slightest to me, I'll go with disobedience.  Just because.

Edited by Rhonda Huntress
copiouss typeos
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5 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

I don't care if it is mod or no-mod.  I am now leaning pro no-mod just because I am tired of hearing a few people make a fuss over a non-issue (to me) and expecting the whole of SL should acquiesce to their whims about  how they feel SL should be ran and how permissions should be transferred.  I don't like being told what I should do and since it does not matter in the slightest to me, I'll go with disobedience.  Just because.

Now step back and take a breath so you can be objective...the fate of the Western World depends on our accurate solution to this dilemma.

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6 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

apathy

I'm curious: Do you have a mesh avatar? If so, do you use auto-hide (aka "auto-alpha") ?

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Okay, so you know, if the clothing article is modifiable, you can install the auto-alpha script in the object itself and make it control the alpha pattern just by adding and removing it. It's almost as easy as adding and removing system clothing used to be, piece-by-piece instead of outfit-at-a-time. I find it a real pleasure, and it works for all my modifiable clothes, whether they were made yesterday or a month before auto-alpha was available for my avatar. And of course it works for none of my no-mod items, so wearing those requires the kludgy old outfit-at-a-time regimen. So of course the mod perm ones are pretty much the only ones I wear now, and all my no-mod clothes became functionally obsolete, almost overnight.

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9 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

And of course it works for none of my no-mod items, so wearing those requires the kludgy old outfit-at-a-time regimen. So of course the mod perm ones are pretty much the only ones I wear now, and all my no-mod clothes became functionally obsolete, almost overnight.

Well, truthfully you can drop that same auto-alpha script into a separate prim and just always wear that prim with the item.  That is how I handle it for my stuff.  Granted, I'd much prefer being able to drop the script directly into the object, but there is a way to deal with the no-mod and accomplish the same thing.

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12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Okay, so you know, if the clothing article is modifiable, you can install the auto-alpha script in the object itself and make it control the alpha pattern just by adding and removing it. It's almost as easy as adding and removing system clothing used to be, piece-by-piece instead of outfit-at-a-time. I find it a real pleasure, and it works for all my modifiable clothes, whether they were made yesterday or a month before auto-alpha was available for my avatar. And of course it works for none of my no-mod items, so wearing those requires the kludgy old outfit-at-a-time regimen. So of course the mod perm ones are pretty much the only ones I wear now, and all my no-mod clothes became functionally obsolete, almost overnight.

I believe I said something about this a few pages ago.  I don't buy things I have to fix.  Autohide has been out far to long to leave it out of new clothes.  If I have to fix the alpha cuts, I don't buy it.

For the old outfits, I have a tiny prim attached to the HUD and moved off screen.  Trivially simple, really.  But thankfully I don't have to even to that any more.

 

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20 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Well, truthfully you can drop that same auto-alpha script into a separate prim and just always wear that prim with the item.  That is how I handle it for my stuff.  Granted, I'd much prefer being able to drop the script directly into the object, but there is a way to deal with the no-mod and accomplish the same thing.

In virtually ever clothing folder, I have a sub folder called !Wear Me.  It has copies of the parts I want to wear.  I started this habit with prim clothes when it took several pieces to make on jacket.  I carried on the habit when  resize scripts needed to be purged from every single prim once an item was set up. I have a few autohide scripted prims in these sub folders.

In a couple of months and another inventory purge or two I doubt many will survive much longer.  Just like standard sizing and shoulder pads ... tossed along with old styles to make room for better stuff.

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Of course we should target customers, too. But once those customers understand how they've been deprived by no-mod content, they need to put pressure back on the merchants who distribute the no-mod wares, to let them know why their content is no longer favored and how easily they could recover their reputation and business. But those suppliers will never even know how much better their business could be unless customers and prospective customers tell them what they're doing wrong.

The denomination of the church I attended had a service organization. Their website talked at length about their work with anti-oppression, anti-globalization, anti-racism, etc. After reading all these "anti-'s" one thought immediately entered my mind - "What are you for?"

The messaging of the OP's side of the debate has been heavily "anti-no-mod." It would probably be more productive if the messaging was "pro-mod" instead. Look at all the negative words I quoted. If you tell someone they're doing something wrong in a confrontational way that usually just serves to make them more certain that they're right about what they've been doing all along. \

The "just don't buy it" advice is also ineffective because it's silent. There are merchants on this forum that I don't buy from specifically because of their behavior on the forum, but I don't tell them I'm not buying, and they act exactly the same.

Perhaps a more effective way of influencing customers and merchants is to start threads about the benefits of modding - perhaps showing off things that we've modded and what sort of benefits that have given us, like the "Show us your avatar" threads. I know Penny tries to do that but it always seems to come out confrontational somehow. Perhaps she's a Miura - I know they're known primarily for bulls, but they have to have some cows somewhere.

Then, if people are inspired to mod things and are looking at merchants who sell no-mod, have them nicely tell those sellers that they'll buy their product if it was  moddable. Some merchants will go along and do a custom perm for them; some won't. However, it will give them an idea of the business they're missing out on and/or demonstrate that the workload of making things no-mod can be just as high as making them moddable.

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1 hour ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

 Autohide has been out far to long to leave it out of new clothes.  If I have to fix the alpha cuts, I don't buy it.

 

The only things these days that I end up with that might need alpha cuts are hunt items and I do make note of the creators when I have to make the alpha cuts and I don't buy from them in the future.  Now, if I have something that I haven't worn yet and I like it, I will keep it, with a created auto-hide, until I wear it - then it will almost always get tossed.  I say "almost always" because I do have 2 sweaters that I really like and they are very versatile, so I did keep those.  

 

1 hour ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

shoulder pads

Huh?  Are you trying to tell me that shoulder pads are no longer in style?  Boy is my wardrobe going to take a hit.  :D

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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Just as no copy items such as plants (if you want more you buy more) became unpopular, and these merchants quickly learnt that to compete you need to make your plants copy, so I think no mod is being squeezed out too. As Pamela said, demand will dictate. 

And threads like this are useful. There may be some no mod creators who have learnt from it.

Edited by Rya Nitely
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8 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

You have a massive chasm of apathy to bridge before I (a no-mod customer) decide to "put pressure" anywhere on your behalf.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  I don't care if it is mod or no-mod.  I am now leaning pro no-mod just because I am tired of hearing a few people make a fuss over a non-issue (to me) and expecting the whole of SL should acquiesce to their whims about  how they feel SL should be ran and how permissions should be transferred.  I don't like being told what I should do and since it does not matter in the slightest to me, I'll go with disobedience.  Just because.

I may have said this previously in this thread but I want to be clear, I am not trying to tell people how to enjoy SL.  A lot of people do not mod, have no interest in modding or the mod/no-mod issue, and that is fair enough.  I'm just sharing information you may or may not be aware of. You don't even have to read these threads but regardless of whether or not this information is useful to you, personally, you ARE affected by whether or not this information is out there.

SL content creators, on the whole, have some extremely bad habits and there is a lot of misinformation on the very nature of how SL works. I believe it was Qie who mentioned the scam artist with their anti-copybot scripts but some are more benign such as content creators simply unaware of how their texturing habits kill your framerates and generate much of the lag you experience every day. Most people never pause to consider how the scale of content affects them.

 With modifiable content those of us who are interested can find ways to improve this content and often in ways which we can share with other people. This in turn spreads information which allows more people to make better informed purchasing decisions and allows a more informed market to put pressure on content creators to sell you better content, without you personally having to mod or care about modding.

 And as long as there are people saying things like "no-mod protects against content theft" or "texture use has no affect on lag or framerates" I'll be here to say "That's not true and this is why."

7 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The messaging of the OP's side of the debate has been heavily "anti-no-mod." It would probably be more productive if the messaging was "pro-mod" instead. Look at all the negative words I quoted. If you tell someone they're doing something wrong in a confrontational way that usually just serves to make them more certain that they're right about what they've been doing all along.

You're probably right, but it is my belief that misinformation needs to be called out directly and that's why I made a post tackling the three most common no-mod justifications I'm always hearing. You only need to look out the window at modern public discourse to see the harm that occurs when you sit back and politely allow lies and misinformation to be given the same respect as facts and evidence.

But yeah, thank you. I will try and take your advice here and try to be more pro-mod going forward.

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8 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The messaging of the OP's side of the debate has been heavily "anti-no-mod." It would probably be more productive if the messaging was "pro-mod" instead

I agree Theresa. Well said ...

I think its a bit presumptuous to say that if someone decides to buy "no-mod" that they don't value their money or their avatar. It really comes down to the needs of the buyer. All businesses could gain from polling customers and asking for feedback, but many rarely ever do and that is unfortunate.

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12 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

[...] because I am tired of hearing a few people make a fuss over a non-issue (to me) and expecting the whole of SL should acquiesce to their whims about  how they feel SL should be ran and how permissions should be transferred.

I'll go further. It's a complete non-issue to almost everybody in SL. The reason why only a very few people complain about no-mod is because everyone else doesn't find anything to complain about. The rest do what you do - buy it if it's suitable and don't buy it if it's not. That's why the only voices raised are the few no-mod campaigners who like to fiddle with things, probably just because they can.

ETA: I'm still talking from the point of view of objects, such as furniture. I don't know anything about clothing and avatars.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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You know, the whole "If you don't like it, don't buy" thing applies to forum threads as well as inworld content. Those who don't like Penny's ideas or how she frames them are free to just ignore her threads. This one is only five pages because of the objections.

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That's true, Bitsy, but, if we all did that, there would no voices to question or oppose those views. Or maybe other threads would be started to state other opinions. Imo, it's better to have the discussion from all sides within a single thread. I imagine, though, that most of us do what I do - I don't get into threads that have no interest to me, so I think we do what you suggested anyway.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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24 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

[Lots of various posts]

Here's my problem with the concept of no modify, and people coming in and so strenuously objecting to Penny.

Many consumers buy no-modify not because they're fine with no modify or it's what they want, but because they don't know any better. Any education as to the benefits of modify is a good thing, in my mind.

Many, if not most consumers in SL don't know that over the years, a lot in SL has changed. Script functions, materials, lights, shadows, alphas and invisiprims, hell even the whole physics engine has changed.

If a creator made something no modify that relied on any of those things, it'd now be useless. Those shoes I previously mentioned, a friend of mine had them. Some of them cost upward of 20 or 30 USD, if memory serves. My friend, she bought them because she didn't know any better, they simply happened to be the "best women's boots" available at the time. When they all broke due to invisiprims, she had two options. Throw them all away or get a ripper viewer and steal 'em.

I'm pretty sure she quit SL. Had she known ahead of time that you can't fix no modify stuff if the grid changes, I suspect she wouldn't have bought them to begin with.

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