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I don't ''get'' Sansar

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1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

Looking for the silver lining, I guess with less women capable of being in Sansar us men might get more than just sweatpants and tattoos at our fashion shows (poor attempt at humour ;) )

..and more likely a woman Avatar is a RL man! ?

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I haven't attempted using VR in Sansar yet because I don't have the money to spend on a headset and I'm leery that I'll be able to use it without wanting to throw up, however, I am going to buy a set this summer and am hopeful that I will be able to adjust over time and be able to enjoy the experience. I get this hope from seeing people everyday in VR in Sansar who in the beginning had motion sickness but over time they have adjusted and can spend up to two hours in VR with little difficulty, and this includes men and women. It's also rather obvious who are men and who are women because we typically use voice and not text for communicating.

I don't trust much of the reports or research on motion sickness and VR yet because it's just too new. There can't be that much reliable data yet. I am excited to see where this new technology takes us in the future. For me Sansar is just a tiny piece of the VR picture. I really believe VR will have a significant impact on how we live in the future.

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11 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Thanks for the articles. All very interesting.

The 'women are more inclined' statement sounds like researcher bias. I did notice that the 2002 study seemed to be the ONLY contrary one, and when I clicked a link that was supposed to go to it's actual paper it was a 404 page.

In following this from the OTHER SIDE... I work in tech, so I hear all the news here in Silicon Valley... I think this is all an 'engineer bias' issue. The engineers had literally never thought to have women involved in the testing and development in those early stages when they decided how to simulate and display motion.

This is why I mentioned above the 'video games that couldn't see black and south asian players' - a developer of one such game... he was a product manager and not an engineer... wrote this:

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2017/01/12/how-we-accidentally-made-a-racist-videogame

Quote

The worst moment of my career was imminent. Just before the launch event, we were fixing bugs and going through Xbox certification when one of our artists dropped a bombshell.

“Dude, how come the game doesn’t work?”

I looked at him blankly.

“What do you mean? I played it this morning and it worked fine.”

He stood in front of the camera and showed me. It didn’t work. Puzzled, I stood in front of the camera and it did work. After a few moments of bemused frustration, the penny dropped. His skin was dark, mine was not. The camera relied on reflected light to detect motion. He didn’t reflect anywhere near as much as me.

We had made a racist computer game.

Panic mode. We patched it up as best we could, but there was only so much we could do with the available tech and almost no time. I arrived at the Virgin Megastore with a sense of trepidation that only grew as journalists arrived with cameras and enquiring minds. Then the public started to arrive. Showtime. I stood in front of the assembled crowd, explained how the game worked, and asked for a volunteer to demo it. An African-American man at the front of the crowd raised his hand.

“I’ll play.”

And it goes on from there, as this guy realizes his company has messed up big time... and is trying to warn the VR industry against making the same blunder but with regards to gender instead of skin tone...

His article is not about intending to be biased... but about how they got into a blind spot and it never occurred to them to test their technology against people who were not like the development team...

A lot of work right now in Silicon Valley is being done to increase diversity on varied teams - and a part of that is motivated by a desire to avoid PR disasters like the one told in that article.

But VR is still largely being made the most closed up insular parts of the industry... where you need to know secret Klingon handshakes to get in on things...

It is a perfectly fixable problem... but it will require them 'rebooting' the tech and developing basically two completely different models of motion detection, and a system to test a player / user to see which model to use with them... (that's a very rough guess... I'm just suspecting that's the fix).

 

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The motion problem is so old that the VR industry has forgotten it exists. Ever see what happens to someone who gets car sick? How about people below deck in a sailboat? No tech involved -- it's the inner ear and the eyes not agreeing on what's happening in the world. When they don't agree then queasiness and sudden removal of the lunch can occur. Some people are very susceptible; others aren't at all. Anyone who isn't in the "not at all affected" column has a reasonable chance of getting sick using VR goggles if they use them long enough. There's no fix for VR other than building a holodeck so that people can move around in the scene. Their eyes and inner ears have to agree on the motion.

The other problem that doesn't have a solution is that people don't like being isolated from their surroundings for long. That probably goes back to the beginning of our existence because it helped us to survive, so it's not easily dealt with. The odds of getting a spear in the back are much, much lower now, but there could be a joker with an air horn. xD

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On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 11:22 PM, Parhelion Palou said:

The motion problem is so old that the VR industry has forgotten it exists. Ever see what happens to someone who gets car sick? How about people below deck in a sailboat? No tech involved -- it's the inner ear and the eyes not agreeing on what's happening in the world. When they don't agree then queasiness and sudden removal of the lunch can occur. Some people are very susceptible; others aren't at all. Anyone who isn't in the "not at all affected" column has a reasonable chance of getting sick using VR goggles if they use them long enough. There's no fix for VR other than building a holodeck so that people can move around in the scene. Their eyes and inner ears have to agree on the motion

I think we need to put to rest the myth that that eye/ear lack of coordination is the ONLY factor that causes queasiness, and also put to rest the notion that this issue (or others that contribute to queasiness) cannot be overcome.

If lack of eye/ear coordination would be the only factor in queasiness then it would have to hold true in all cases, and it does not.
For example, a blind person can walk without queasiness, yet they don't have eye/ear coordination because they can't even see. And when they do experience dizziness, I question what other factors could be causing it.
There are numerous other examples demonstrating that queasiness/dizziness relates to more than just lack of ear/eye coordination. One of my college classes, Psychology Of Perception, posits some interesting theories to explore.

If anything, VR has shown me the amazing plasticity of the brain, shown me that so much of what we believe is 'set in stone' is not! The proof of this regarding the ear/eye issue is that people are able to adapt and the queasiness stops.

I'm so glad I never listened to those who perpetuated this "VR equals vomiting' myth because I never would have discovered the wonder of VR.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 11:22 PM, Parhelion Palou said:

The other problem that doesn't have a solution is that people don't like being isolated from their surroundings for long. That probably goes back to the beginning of our existence because it helped us to survive, so it's not easily dealt with. The odds of getting a spear in the back are much, much lower now, but there could be a joker with an air horn. xD

Or a cat that claws you!  My kitties do not like VR at all....somehow they sense that I'm far, far away from their reality...

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20 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think we need to put to rest the myth that that eye/ear lack of coordination is the ONLY factor that causes queasiness, and also put to rest the notion that this issue (or others that contribute to queasiness) cannot be overcome.

It's the MAIN cause of vomit-cam syndrome, has been since experiments started in the 80's.

It CAN be over come... NASA trains people to overcome motion sickness, using a 747 cargo conversion in freefall dives... They call it "The Vomit Comit", but not everyone can learn to overcome the problem, that's why so many wannabe astronauts wash out of NASA training programs.

20 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

If lack of eye/ear coordination would be the only factor in queasiness then it would have to hold true in all cases, and it does not.
For example, a blind person can walk without queasiness, yet they don't have eye/ear coordination because they can't even see.

As usual, you have EVERYTHING assbackwards... Stop meditating, throw away the incense and the psychadelia art, 

It is CONFLICT that causes motion sickness, not lack of coordination, a blind persons inner ear tells their brain they are moving... their non functioning visual system tells the brain nothing, 'nothing' does not CONFLICT with 'moving'.

Motion sickness is conflict based, your working eyes say "argh! rollercoaster ride of certain death!", your inner ear says "sat on your hippie ass on the meditation rug"... PUKE!

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

The proof of this regarding the ear/eye issue is that people are able to adapt and the queasiness stops.

SOME people can overcome it, some cannot, the reason VR consistantly fails to take off as predicted by its kool-aid guzzling fans is... 

Most people don't feel like risking hundreds of $ for VR geek goggles and a pc powerful enough to run them, and then paying extra for a VR game, just to see if they will puke or not, or to puke for the first 4 weeks of play...

They would rather just avoid VR and buy affordable games they can play right away that don't leave intestinal ejecta on their keyboard, clothes, floor, walls, ceiling, partner, and cat...

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm so glad I never listened to those who perpetuated this "VR equals vomiting' myth because I never would have discovered the wonder of VR.

For a great many people, it's NOT a myth, but a well documented medical fact...

If you are one of the small minority that don't puke under immersive vomit-cam conditions, congratulations, enjoy the 'wonder' of seeing 3d environments in Project Stupid, and just staring at them while chanting at your bemused cat...

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

somehow they sense that I'm far, far away from their reality...

Some of us had noticed that too, go figure...


 

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4 hours ago, Klytyna said:

vomit-cam syndrome, insults, misconceptions, semantical arguing, more insults, blah blah blah


Klytyna, the majority of VR users do NOT feel nausea -- you only have to sample from a larger population of VR users outside of this forum to discover this. I agree, it is a significant problem, and yes it affects a measurable percentage of users -- but it is by no means the majority.

They have already made great strides in solving the vestibular and ocular system problems, and focusing research on proprioception and how it plays into the lack of coordination between vestibular and ocular systems just might solve the rest.

There are libraries all over the place (especially in ga-rooooovy San Francisco) that have VR demos -- try before you buy.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Tech illiterate VR-Koolaid San-Fran-Centric Hippie Psychobabble.

NASA says you are talking crap, the Military R&D sections of most major NATO powers say you are talking crap... Go figure...

All those billions of $ they spent must have been wasted huh?

As for most VR users not puking...

Again you have it ass backwards, it's like claiming people don't NEED driving lessons because most people with driving licences can drive.

The reason most VR users don't puke is that all the pukers stopped using VR, or never started.

THATS WHY IT ALWAYS FAILS TO TAKE OFF. 

Only a small percentage of the population can stand the stuff.

As for VR demos in San Fran Libraries... I hate to be the one to break this news to you, hold tightly to the edge of your meditation mat, but...

Most of the worlds population not only don't live in San Fran, they don't live on the Murican West Coast, or even in Murica at all... Many are in fact...

*GASP*

Foreigners...

 

Edited by Klytyna

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10 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

As for VR demos in San Fran Libraries... I hate to be the one to break this news to you, hold tightly to the edge of your meditation mat, but...

Most of the worlds population not only don't live in San Fran, they don't live on the Murican West Coast, or even in Murica at all... Many are in fact...

*GASP*

Foreigners...

Oh Klytyna, Klytyna...I only used San Francisco so I could say "ga-roooooooovy' to jest with your 'acid, hippie,meditation, etc.' insults. Do you actually think I believe most people live in San Francisco?
Anyway, these VR demos are in libraries in many/most states, but I do think the initiative began in California.

 

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18 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

NASA says you are talking crap, the Military R&D sections of most major NATO powers say you are talking crap... Go figure...

I don't know why you keep referencing your military experiences from last century. Please enter the new millennium!
Seriously, start reading more current articles done by researchers in the field, for VR applications outside the military and NASA. The future looks bright, whether for VR or AR or some kind of combination (that is if the ice caps don't melt   xD).

Edited by Luna Bliss
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https://www.vrfocus.com/2017/06/oculus-launching-programme-to-bring-vr-to-90-california-libraries/

Libraries involved in this initiative are in other states as well, and the actual library addresses are online. Would be interesting to see if this is happening outside the US too.

Often in stores selling VR headsets one can find demos as well.

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Seriously, start reading more current articles done by researchers in the field, for VR applications outside the military and NASA

Why certainly... I'm sure the 'research' published by the Marketing-Sith Department of the Overpriced VR Geek Goggle Company Inc., are ENTIRELY impartial and fair when they claim that spending more money cures motion sickness and redirect you to the product order page...

No... Wait... These are the people who you once mentioned in a vomit-cam-kool-aid post last year as "not mentioning motion sickness due to inner ear conflict " as a cause of vr puking at all...

Amazing, you still don't get it do you, people who want to make money selling vomitcam tech WILL NEVER admit their products cause vomiting... It's bad for the sales figures.

Also, your constant dismissal of people a damn sight smarter than your goggle makers, with a much larger budget, who have been researching this crap for more years than you have LIVED as obsolete...

Do you ever wonder why UAV drone operators don't use vomitcam... But surgeons do ?

Surgery, VR can help a surgeon see inside a paitient during keyhole surgery, very use3ful, no motion conflicts standing by the operating table just a clearer view of where the blade is.

But Drones firing Hellfire II missiles...

"Sir General Bombthebastards Sir... *ralph* I have Osram bin Lightbulb's car in view *huey* Permission to **puke* engage with hellfires *technicolor yawn* Oh god the vomit's shorted the fire controls, all missiles away... *hurl* Oh... the tourist coach full of nuns... *ralph* sorry general, bin Lightbulb got away *spray* Sir Sorry about your shoes Sir..."

Meh...
 

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6 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Why certainly... I'm sure the 'research' published by the Marketing-Sith Department of the Overpriced VR Geek Goggle Company Inc., are ENTIRELY impartial and fair

You are always going to say I'm using a biased sample for my proof, and I will always say you are doing the same.
I'm in no mood to engage in a research article debate frenzy.
The solution, to those who are on the fence about VR -- try before you buy.  It's easy now.

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

try before you buy.  It's easy now.

...if you live near one of the tax funded public libraries in California that are allowing a company to use their building for biased marketing displays...
 

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13 minutes ago, Klytyna said:
21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

try before you buy.  It's easy now.

...if you live near one of the tax funded public libraries in California that are allowing a company to use their building for biased marketing displays...
 

Well now here you had my questioning something -- is it really okay for a company to use a public space for advertising?
I don't think it's ONLY advertising though.
VR has an amazing potential for educational purposes, in the same way computers are also used in libraries (whether purchased by the library, via taxes, or donated by specific companies as a partial form of advertising).

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This discussion made me so curious i had to have a look for myself. So i created a small island and another place to (only published the small place). And it was quite fun to build and very intuitive. Clothes was gorgeous too and when they didnt fit i could "simulate" them and drag them up and down so they fitted. Grand! 

I have played some beta games over the years (mostly mmos, for ex ArcheAge and ESO) and imo this is fine. It reminds me a lot of Cloud Party actually. same sort of publishing ones "experiences". I miss Cloud party a lot so I think ill stay in Sansar and see how it goes. I wont invest in it for a while as i got burned in Cloud Party when they close down. They didnt have the muscles for continuing I think and got bought up by someone... i dunno who...

So be cool, motion sickness will be solved with better tech/update frequency in a near future im sure:)Tillbakakaka.thumb.jpg.3ffe21fedf3954eeaca48122b564afe3.jpg

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On 4/3/2018 at 1:18 AM, Majskakan said:

Tillbakakaka.thumb.jpg.3ffe21fedf3954eeaca48122b564afe3.jpg

 

I wonder why LL decided to make all free female hairs so terrible looking in Sansar?
Every time when I look my avatar there I wanna weep a bit. :(

I guess the avatars will look pretty good later on when they get beautiful skins, nice animations and enhanced shape adjusting.
And awesome hairs naturally.

(Avatar shape mesh is quite detailed one and the skeleton has lots of bones. So, there is hope for nice looking avatars.)

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44 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

I wonder why LL decided to make all free female hairs so terrible looking in Sansar?

Maybe so creators get early bump for making better hair?

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5 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

I wonder why LL decided to make all free female hairs so terrible looking in Sansar?

For EXACTLY the same reason their attempts to make mesh avatars for SL ended up looking crap...

...

LL Exec #1: So, should we update the avatars for SecondLife with mesh?

LL Exec #2: SecondLife? Isn't that the computer game thingy we're in charge of?

LL Exec #3: Yes, thats the thing, that porno game that pays our executive stock option dividends...

LL Exec #2: Well if it's that game thing, why don't we hire some game thing content chap, and tell him to make some of those... Erm what do they call them... Not Person Creations? 

LL Exec #3: Yes! That's the ticket, tell the techies to hire a game content making chappy, and make some NPC's, zombies and such, that you can shoot at... Pew Pew! Hahaha!

LL Exec #1: All in favour? Show of hands is fastest. Carried unanimously! Time is 11:15 am, Let's have lunch, whose turn is it to pay for the "business lunch" with their company credit card today? Le Snob Gastronomique anybody? I hear they have designer Japanese steak at $800 a plate, each steak comes with a copy of the Cow's passport and family tree!

...



 

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Serious uncanny valley problem here. Approaching photorealism, but just looks wrong. When you get that close, it has to be perfect, or it really bothers people.

Edited by animats
Add Wikipedia link to explain "uncanny valley".
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5 hours ago, animats said:

Serious uncanny valley problem here. Approaching photorealism, but just looks wrong. When you get that close, it has to be perfect, or it really bothers people.

This isn't an "uncanny valley" problem, Project Stupid avatars are nowhere NEAR photorealism.

This is just really really badly made hair meshes and textures.
 

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On 3/26/2018 at 7:05 AM, Pussycat Catnap said:

It is a perfectly fixable problem... but it will require them 'rebooting' the tech and developing basically two completely different models of motion detection, and a system to test a player / user to see which model to use with them... (that's a very rough guess... I'm just suspecting that's the fix).

I can't see there being more than the two forms of movement we already have (warp or slide), BUT there are a myriad of occlusions that can be applied to the screen during movement, and it's in these occlusions I think the solution might lie. As you say, a number can be offered and the best one chosen. And that needs the design phase to be very inclusive of many different types of player.

So far the best for me is teleport movement with 100% screen darkening (along with a strong fan blowing on me), but when teleport is offered as an option it needs to be of a decent distance, and the "blink" of darkness needs to be long enough too. The length of that blink is an artform in itself. Too short and you will be sick, too long and the immersion of the game is destroyed.

I sit here right now very nauseous, bright sea-green in fact. I spent 30 minutes in Skyrim VR this morning doing the intro quest, and by the time I got to the first town I had to rip the goggles off and lay down for 4 hours in a dark room to recover. It was that bad. 

(Skyrim VR offers two forms of movement - there is sliding combined with a marquee that closes in to narrow the FOV during movement, and there is a warp mode. I tried the warp mode for about 10 seconds and gave up on it, because the game designers decided it would move you 3 feet each activation. I was effectively forced to switch to slide mode due to the stupidly short cast distance, and it was uncomfortable.)

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19 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

I wonder why LL decided to make all free female hairs so terrible looking in Sansar?
Every time when I look my avatar there I wanna weep a bit. :(

I guess the avatars will look pretty good later on when they get beautiful skins, nice animations and enhanced shape adjusting.
And awesome hairs naturally.

(Avatar shape mesh is quite detailed one and the skeleton has lots of bones. So, there is hope for nice looking avatars.)

There are actually a lot of hairs in the shop that are similar to SL hairs. I have to use freebies as im EU and there are payment problems if u are not US citizen atm. I dont mind, its beta and its free :)

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