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I don't ''get'' Sansar

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13 minutes ago, Ventura Magic said:

Again: After 15 years of experience and a lot of years of developement (already) the result _is_ simply poor

Developing something for VR is more complicated, and especially so when what they're developing allows us to build in it (as opposed to say a game that doesn't allow much input from the game user).

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You don't understand what a 'creator beta' release means....this is different from a typical public release...

I know pretty good what it means, but i doubt the missing stuff and annoyances will be done fast enough. I also doubt some things can be fixed at all because a conceptional fault. Just because i have a different opinion and see things from another side, it doesn't mean, i don't understand it. The people with access already published pictures, videos, opinions and more since it was open for creators. They was talking to Friends, shown it to them. Sansar and what's going on there isn't exactly a secret. Beside that Linden Lab tends to mess up things always first, additionally fails in communication epic always and is slower to react to do needed things than a Rhino in a Bathtub. It would be a REAL surprise to me, if Sansar will be user friendly, interesting and rid of the annoyances at "official" public release.

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20 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Developing something for VR is more complicated, and especially so when what they're developing allows us to build in it (as opposed to say a game that doesn't allow much input from the game user).

wishful thinking... reality is a different one: interest in VR stuff drops dramatically worldwide. prices are too high, VR hardware is too lousy (especially for this money), battery capacity too low, cable stuff is annoying at VR, hardware requirements too high. and about the last thing: not everyone wants to run around with a giant something at his/her head and voice all the time. maybe because kid is sleeping, or it would annoy the partner or mum/dad or someone else, some just want to listen to music and not all the blablabla and have to switch to screen/headphones because battery of the VR device is empty, some can't for health reasons, and and and. whatever: sells dropped hard, prices are dropping hard too (and better don't expect much support for it anymore / for a long time) and some companies dropped VR already, others are about to do it.

Maybe a future generation will do better. Will Linden Lab make another fancy thing again then?

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52 minutes ago, Ventura Magic said:

I know pretty good what it means, but i doubt the missing stuff and annoyances will be done fast enough. I also doubt some things can be fixed at all because a conceptional fault. Just because i have a different opinion and see things from another side, it doesn't mean, i don't understand it. The people with access already published pictures, videos, opinions and more since it was open for creators. They was talking to Friends, shown it to them. Sansar and what's going on there isn't exactly a secret. Beside that Linden Lab tends to mess up things always first, additionally fails in communication epic always and is slower to react to do needed things than a Rhino in a Bathtub. It would be a REAL surprise to me, if Sansar will be user friendly, interesting and rid of the annoyances at "official" public release.

If you only see the negative aspects of something you really don't understand it. Everything you speak of points to problems, as if problems should not be a part of the development of something new. As if mistakes should not be part of the process. And then you totally trash LL.
I see many mistakes LL made -- mistakes that caused me a LOT of trouble. But in most cases I don't think myself or anyone else could have done any better. And I see these mistakes as part of all organizations. Hindsight is 20/20 you know.
You compared Blue Mars, but did you notice that it's MUCH easier to publish/make public your work in Sansar than it was in Blue Mars? When you make comparisons, it seems your mindset is to see only the negative, and so I think that's all you find.

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25 minutes ago, Ventura Magic said:

reality is a different one: interest in VR stuff drops dramatically worldwide. prices are too high, VR hardware is too lousy (especially for this money), battery capacity too low, cable stuff is annoying at VR, hardware requirements too high. and about the last thing: not everyone wants to run around with a giant something at his/her head and voice all the time. maybe because kid is sleeping, or it would annoy the partner or mum/dad or someone else, some just want to listen to music and not all the blablabla and have to switch to screen/headphones because battery of the VR device is empty, some can't for health reasons, and and and. whatever: sells dropped hard, prices are dropping hard too (and better don't expect much support for it anymore / for a long time) and some companies dropped VR already, others are about to do it.

Maybe a future generation will do better. Will Linden Lab make another fancy thing again then?

VR and AR (augmented reality) are part of the natural progression of the internet. VR is not some fad, or some gimmick like 3D TV....instead it will be an integral part of the internet going forward.
One of the problems you mention (the headset) -- even now they are in the the process of getting much smaller.
VR & AR continue to grow -- you must be reading different stats on it than I do.
VR has developed in waves. The fact that it keeps coming back is proof to me that it's here to stay, whereas to you I think the fact that it's not quite born yet in this current wave is proof that it never will be a reality.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

You don't understand what a 'creator beta' release means....this is different from a typical public release...

Then, maybe standard public beta in 2 more years, and full release in 3-4 years?

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3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

You don't understand what a 'creator beta' release means....this is different from a typical public release...

Then, maybe standard public beta in 2 more years, and full release in 3-4 years?

I would need to have access and be able to comprehend information I haven't seen to evaluate that.

I'm not sure even LL could know for certain, as so much of this has not been done before. I mean you could point to Unity, but there are differences between the Unity setup vs the Sansar one.

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I would need to have access and be able to comprehend information I haven't seen to evaluate that.

I'm not sure even LL could know for certain, as so much of this has not been done before. I mean you could point to Unity, but there are differences between the Unity setup vs the Sansar one.

Considering they are writing this all from scratch with initial focus on VR. I’m not trying to be a pessimist, but a realist. What they are doing has never been done before, kinda.

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Considering they are writing this all from scratch with initial focus on VR. I’m not trying to be a pessimist, but a realist. What they are doing has never been done before, kinda.

Yes I believe even Ebbe said it's a gamble.

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes I believe even Ebbe said it's a gamble.

Not sure I said this before..but if they do JUST a good enough job, could sell the project to Oculus/FB for large dollars, thus having capital to continue with SL and/or the next project. (Kinda of like how FB bought Oculus for US$2B.)

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21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If you only see the negative aspects of something you really don't understand it. Everything you speak of points to problems, as if problems should not be a part of the development of something new. As if mistakes should not be part of the process. And then you totally trash LL.
I see many mistakes LL made -- mistakes that caused me a LOT of trouble. But in most cases I don't think myself or anyone else could have done any better. And I see these mistakes as part of all organizations. Hindsight is 20/20 you know.
You compared Blue Mars, but did you notice that it's MUCH easier to publish/make public your work in Sansar than it was in Blue Mars? When you make comparisons, it seems your mindset is to see only the negative, and so I think that's all you find.

I know the mistakes LL did caused a lot of trouble at you. I remember pretty good (just one example) when you abandoned the huge, very beautiful and for sure unique landscape sims with all the nice tours and activities around it and i'm glad i seen and experienced them before they disappeared. That was a loss for SL for sure. Also a lot of other creators (commercial or not) and users gave up then or even left SL for the same or similar reasons. As i said, just one example.

And yes, it's easier to publish stuff for creators. But that's just one side. And no matter how much easier it is for the pro-creators, for the users and semi-pro-creators the whole concept is "suboptimal" (the most diplomatic word i can find for...) and even as a creator you should be interested to see this too. When Users don't like Sansar and won't stay/return, creators can't sell and Sansar WILL stay a dead world. And NONE of them will like the massive slow loading times or being forced to use VR/AR/voice stuff and the total lack of any useful GUI, lacks in movement and camera control, etc.

As i said already, there are good reasons for NOT wanting it (always). Some will even refuse voice simply because privacy reasons.

And the "Inventory"? Maybe Sansar isn't meant as a SL replacement, maybe... but: even SL inventory is too much/hard for a lot of users, Sansars inventory is a restriction for sure. If i imagine it with 100 outfit parts or more in each section, that won't be funny to organize as well. And i see similar problems with other Items. At the end this will hit creators as well then, when people stop buying things because the whole thing gets too messy then too, just in another way than in SL. Too much stuff isn't really thought well.

All those issues and more WILL affect creators as well, if people won't like Sansar for all those flaws/issues. No, i'm not too negative, but i seen and felt myself what's wrong with Sansar, also listened to people and what they're expecting and thinking. But i don't talk for them, just for myself and what i'm thinking. If i would see more positive at Sansar i would say more positive about it, be sure.

 

20 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

VR and AR (augmented reality) are part of the natural progression of the internet. VR is not some fad, or some gimmick like 3D TV....instead it will be an integral part of the internet going forward.
One of the problems you mention (the headset) -- even now they are in the the process of getting much smaller.
VR & AR continue to grow -- you must be reading different stats on it than I do.
VR has developed in waves. The fact that it keeps coming back is proof to me that it's here to stay, whereas to you I think the fact that it's not quite born yet in this current wave is proof that it never will be a reality.

I don't see much progression recently, for sure no major progression. Here and there a few pixels more at resolution, or a bit smaller, or meta lenses, sure... But the battery issues, picture quality, hardware requirements and other issues are far from being solved. And AR is more a useful thing for mobiles, far away from Windows and Sansar. Don't look at all the shiny announcements from companies and all their even more shiny promises ("smaller! better! improve user experience blablabla". well, the usual cheap marketing trash), look at what people/customers are wanting and the demand dropped hard. the prices are dropping because the demand is so low that companies prefer charging 50% or less because storage costs are too high to store the stuff forever and they can't sell for a higher price anymore. For the same reason other companies are delaying, because they want to make it better. Two people i know with HTC VR stuff aren't using it anymore (or just very very rare). It's simply laying around at a shelf at them. The first VR hype is over and people are disappointed by high prices, weak technology for the money, lack of support and by all those shiny announcements and promises.

 

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39 minutes ago, Ventura Magic said:

All those issues

You have given me much to ponder. Unfortunately my mind is fading, and perhaps some actual food could help this.

Maybe tomorrow...

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21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You have given me much to ponder. Unfortunately my mind is fading, and perhaps some actual food could help this.

Maybe tomorrow...

That's fine. My mind is fading too and i need a break as well. ;)

Enjoy your meal and the break. :)

 

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22 hours ago, Ventura Magic said:

I know the mistakes LL did caused a lot of trouble at you. I remember pretty good (just one example) when you abandoned the huge, very beautiful and for sure unique landscape sims with all the nice tours and activities around it and i'm glad i seen and experienced them before they disappeared. That was a loss for SL for sure. Also a lot of other creators (commercial or not) and users gave up then or even left SL for the same or similar reasons. As i said, just one example.

And yes, it's easier to publish stuff for creators. But that's just one side. And no matter how much easier it is for the pro-creators, for the users and semi-pro-creators the whole concept is "suboptimal" (the most diplomatic word i can find for...) and even as a creator you should be interested to see this too. When Users don't like Sansar and won't stay/return, creators can't sell and Sansar WILL stay a dead world. And NONE of them will like the massive slow loading times or being forced to use VR/AR/voice stuff and the total lack of any useful GUI, lacks in movement and camera control, etc.

As i said already, there are good reasons for NOT wanting it (always). Some will even refuse voice simply because privacy reasons.

And the "Inventory"? Maybe Sansar isn't meant as a SL replacement, maybe... but: even SL inventory is too much/hard for a lot of users, Sansars inventory is a restriction for sure. If i imagine it with 100 outfit parts or more in each section, that won't be funny to organize as well. And i see similar problems with other Items. At the end this will hit creators as well then, when people stop buying things because the whole thing gets too messy then too, just in another way than in SL. Too much stuff isn't really thought well.

All those issues and more WILL affect creators as well, if people won't like Sansar for all those flaws/issues. No, i'm not too negative, but i seen and felt myself what's wrong with Sansar, also listened to people and what they're expecting and thinking. But i don't talk for them, just for myself and what i'm thinking. If i would see more positive at Sansar i would say more positive about it, be sure.

Thanks, I'm glad you loved the park. I miss it, and funny how it seems to exist still out there, somewhere.
I don't feel LL was at fault though, or the reason why I closed the park. It's a complicated mess to evaluate just why I ended up closing it.

Regarding features not developed in Sansar yet, I'm sure everybody wants what you're describing, but I don't expect it to be here yet, and so I can't say anything is wrong with Sansar, as the development is a process and not in a complete state.

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4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Thanks, I'm glad you loved the park. I miss it, and funny how it seems to exist still out there, somewhere.

One of the things I especially love about Sansar is that had you built that park in Sansar and then you delete the park experience, you still have it completely in its original state ready to republish it at anytime you choose. You never have to loose any build!

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9 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

One of the things I especially love about Sansar is that had you built that park in Sansar and then you delete the park experience, you still have it completely in its original state ready to republish it at anytime you choose. You never have to loose any build!

That is actually quite a positive.

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21 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:
On 2/19/2018 at 10:11 AM, Luna Bliss said:

Thanks, I'm glad you loved the park. I miss it, and funny how it seems to exist still out there, somewhere.

One of the things I especially love about Sansar is that had you built that park in Sansar and then you delete the park experience, you still have it completely in its original state ready to republish it at anytime you choose. You never have to loose any build!

THAT is totally amazing. I can't begin to describe how annoying I experience the boxing up of complex sims!

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I also dont get what things all those SL alternatives are. I have feeling that none of them cant compete with SL. Maybe Im wrong, dont know. For me, in SL, the most 2 interesting things are land with all its settings (also ORB-s) and prims with all rules to fit them into land. Some alternatives dont have prims. Dont have prims? So, what I at all do there then. :) And of course also marketing (I have no time to build all stuff myself) is important. And also SL C language is very important. I hate interpretive scripting languages as other alternate virtual-reality have. Actually SL C language is not script, its compiled and linked code with its own functions and libraries, only this is processed automatically. And evan land cost and prims ending is exciting. Maybe, when land becomes free and prims never ends, then maybe I at all tired after 3 day mumble. Put some *****ing house up and go to sleep to real-life.  :)     

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On 2/20/2018 at 9:57 AM, Luna Bliss said:

THAT is totally amazing. I can't begin to describe how annoying I experience the boxing up of complex sims!

OpenSim can do that. They have OAR file export and import. Commercial grids usually restrict export to objects with "Export" permission.

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On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:15 PM, animats said:
On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 11:57 AM, Luna Bliss said:

THAT is totally amazing. I can't begin to describe how annoying I experience the boxing up of complex sims!

OpenSim can do that. They have OAR file export and import. Commercial grids usually restrict export to objects with "Export" permission.

That sounds great, but since I quit my day job I need to earn money with my creativity/time...and there aren't too many customers over there to buy my OAR's don't think :( 

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On 1/9/2018 at 2:42 PM, Rhonda Huntress said:

Let me know when that happens.  I would love to see that.  Everything seemed so isolated and limited when I poked my head in before.

 

This is not a selling point for me.  I'm an old hag and prefer keyboard, mouse and monitor. 

A lot of 'younger hags' do to.

VR has been developed almost entirely by a young male, Asian and White, set of people.

Men and women 'on average' detect motion differently. A -LOT- of women are getting motion sickness in VR, some men to. It's not an absolute... it's like.. most men detect motion like this, most women like that, and then there's some in each that detect the other way.

VR has been built around one assumptive model. It is similar to the issue that hit all those 'camera detection' games (games that use a set-top camera to see the player move, and use that to move the action in the game) - those were developed without testing how the camera's would detect darker skin tones... many of them cannot 'see' Black and South-Asian players...

Augmented Reality has some legs... but I think VR is going to end somewhat messily and a lot of it's tech will be scrapped and injected into AR projects. Some of that is already happening in the Silicon Valley... so the engineers and companies behind this will be fine... their tech will go on to develop AR... but the showcase products we see right now won't last.

 

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I think, put simply, Sansar is LEA on steroids. a Pretty museum to visit now and then while creators make stuff. Beyond that, go look at flickr and the pictures people take. Same sim how many awesome photos you get out of it. and that to me is the biggest down side of sansar. EVERY photo will be identical.  No room for individuality or creativity from the visitors. All we can do is go look at the paintings on the wall

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5 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Men and women 'on average' detect motion differently. A -LOT- of women are getting motion sickness in VR, some men to.

Motion sickness occurs because your eyes are not agreeing with your ears.

Biologically, the person's gender doesn't make the slightest skerick of difference in  this, there are no structural differences in the inner ear between the sexes, and the psychological mismatch that occurs isn't changed by gender-hormones. Male or Female - you will most likely feel motion sick if you move your head too much.

It's probable that there is another factor at play. For example, all genders can learn to put up with, and eventually conquer the feeling of nausea - but that needs you to stay in VR for long times to do it. Maybe there is a higher tolerance to pain and discomfort in one of the groups? One giving up, one pushing through? Or maybe it's just the fact there are more male gamers, and this carries through to more males with headsets. 

But I definitely don't think it's related to gender. Female or Male, at the start it's highly likely you will feel nausea.

Me though, I'm in VR a lot, but I still get motion sick, I don't think I will ever push through it. I normally need to exit VR after 30 to 45 minutes, even with a fan blowing on me.

 

Ah yes, the fan, that brings to mind. There is another physical reason, besides motion-sickness, to limit time  - you sweat, and the pad of the visor gets very wet and icky. Play too long and the soaking wet pad can damage the headset.

Edited by Callum Meriman

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2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I could go on... for literally hundreds of articles.

Thanks for the articles. All very interesting.

The popular press ones make empty, unattributed statements so I generally skipped those, some reference the first. In that study they put the subjects head in a rotating drum with stripes, and found women exhibited more motion sickness, but also less tolerance to moving their heads.

I then went and searched many other papers, further showing I was quite wrong. So, that study, and many others do back up your suggestion that women are more prone to sickness.

 

The common theme is they don't know why women are weaker to the stimulus. One study I just saw suggest that handedness comes into it. Left handed women experience the most motion sickness, right handed the next and ambidextrous women the least.  - http://opus.ipfw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=stu_symp2013

Another https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnagi.2017.00029/full suggests:

Quote

However, women are more inclined to admit subjective symptoms (such as dizziness, headache, and nausea) and remember past motion sickness experience (Cheung and Hofer, 2002), thus the social and/or psychological factors cannot be ruled out. 

Which is also mentioned in the first paper you quoted: 

Quote

We found higher MSS scores in women vs. men, particularly when looking at participants who elected to volunteer.

Which is really just saying women are more willing to share how they feel. It's all rather interesting, and what is a real problem to the technology.

So, I withdraw my statement that both sexes are equal. I have to fall back on just what I feel, and that is I get quite nauseous in VR. It's not pleasant and (along with sweat) really limits your time. However, I will accept the fact that women are experiencing motion sickness in greater numbers then men.

 

Looking for the silver lining, I guess with less women capable of being in Sansar us men might get more than just sweatpants and tattoos at our fashion shows (poor attempt at humour ;) )

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