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I don't ''get'' Sansar

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22 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Anyway, I really hope I don't give the impression I'm against Sansar as an idea. I'm certainly not, I just think there are so many flaws in its implementation it has very little chance to succeed. But time will show and all we can really do is wait and see.

Which flaws are you referring to? I don't see any flaws at this point except for some of those psychopath-appearing avatars with their emotionless expressions...reminds me of that ax-wielding murderer in the original Fargo movie..lol.

But...I realize so much has not been implemented in Sansar yet, and I don't know what will be coming with facial expressions, so I really should not judge. However, I hope I don't meet some of those avatars in VR mode  with its increased reality, as the shock would be worse than some of the horror objects in VR games...

Edited by Luna Bliss

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18 hours ago, animats said:

Rendering is all viewer-side. The sim tells you "There's a prim here, with this texture, and lights there, with these parameters." The viewer does the rest. Good project for Firestorm people to juice up rendering to modern standards.

Ahh I did not know shadows were totally viewer-side...does the SL viewer have the problems with shadows you demonstrated?

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17 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Looking at all the pictures from Sansar and all the experiences I've seen there (including my own), they all seem to rely heavily on the "candlelight effect". Toned down light, a bit of sepia tint and a hint of haze - that's always easy on the eye and it helps obscure many flaws that would be blatantly obvious in broad daylight. It's an old trick, common for early scifi movies, film noir is heavily based on the black-and-white version and painters have used it at least since the 16th Century to create instant "moodiness". Luna is certainly not the only one to love that effect. Let's admit it, we all do. ^_^ It does get old fast though.

I can't say I always want yellow in the landscape, but I do love a misty-mystical look, mysterious, though my preference would be blue. The bright light of noon with the bright blue sky is so harsh, and it really does not show things more accurately (you said you thought this light would be a good test) because it makes much of the foreground washed out.

Let me see if I can find some photos of Sansar without the sepia look or "candlelight effect" as you say....if that only means yellow?

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15 hours ago, animats said:

The feeling I'm getting about Sansar technically is that it works like SL with more server capacity, bigger prim allowances, and higher viewer specs. But beyond that, it's not a big advance.

But it will be, and I think that's why they're building Sansar (for the most part).

 

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7 hours ago, animats said:

It may be possible to market Sansar into a success, although it's not compelling enough to do it by itself.

(I have the horrible feeling that the future of Sansar is to acquired by Disney, with Experiences for not just Star Wars and Ready Player One, but every princess in the Disney pantheon plus the Marvel Overexpanded Universe. With lots of in-world stuff to purchase.)

Well, the fact that they have all these 'big' names involved seems to say they've been doing some pretty good marketing there...

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2 hours ago, ChinRey said:
7 hours ago, animats said:

(I have the horrible feeling that the future of Sansar is to acquired by Disney...

Why would that be horrible?

I, for one, welcome our Audiotronic Princess Overlords. Because unf.

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20 hours ago, animats said:

Sansar does do lighting better than SL. SL is slightly off in some ways. That avatar above is not floating above the ground.  That's a problem in SL's shadow rendering. Here's a worse case. That brick wall goes all the way down to the ground slab, and even some distance into it. There's no gap, despite what the lighting shows.

<snipped>

Again, it's not inherent in SL that you can't have Sansar-quality rendering. Rendering is all viewer-side. The sim tells you "There's a prim here, with this texture, and lights there, with these parameters." The viewer does the rest. Good project for Firestorm people to juice up rendering to modern standards.

You can fix the shadow errors, at least to some extent, with Firestorm's PhotoTools. There's a video tutorial out there somewhere that explains how. It's only good for a photograph, not for moving around, but it's something.

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4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Which flaws are you referring to?

I don't actually think the graphics quality is the biggest issue but since that's what we're discussing right now, take a look at this:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/superposition

That's the latest VR benchmark from the Phoronix test suite, published in 2017 and with Occulus and Hive support. It's probably a better comparasion to Sansar than those ultra-realistic UE4 videos since it's very much in the same dreamy "candlelight effect" (or perhaps "twilight effect" is a better term?) style as Sansar.

If you want a little bit of perspective, here is the 2007 benchmark:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/sanctuary

2008:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/tropics

2009:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/heaven

and 2013:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/valley

Where in this progression does Sansar fit in?

Edited by ChinRey
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4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Which flaws are you referring to? I don't see any flaws at this point except for some of those psychopath-appearing avatars with their emotionless expressions...reminds me of that ax-wielding murderer in the original Fargo movie..lol.

But...I realize so much has not been implemented in Sansar yet,

So..lack of features isn’t a flaw? I used to read the actual Sansar forum and was disappointed how few are there participating in the discussion of..”flaws”.

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19 hours ago, animats said:

The feeling I'm getting about Sansar technically is that it works like SL with more server capacity, bigger prim allowances, and higher viewer specs. But beyond that, it's not a big advance.

You left out fewer avatars allowed simultaneously per instance in Sansar than SL. Your quote seems to conclude “SANSAR BETTER, IS GOOD!”

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19 hours ago, animats said:

Here's a futuristic city nightclub scene in Sansar, from someone who liked the original Blade Runner look:

Can I get the minutes of my life back that I spent squinting at this boring video?

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On 1/16/2018 at 10:41 AM, ChinRey said:

I don't actually think the graphics quality is the biggest issue but since that's what we're discussing right now, take a look at this:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/superposition

That's the latest VR benchmark from the Phoronix test suite, published in 2017 and with Occulus and Hive support. It's probably a better comparasion to Sansar than those ultra-realistic UE4 videos since it's very much in the same dreamy "candlelight effect" (or perhaps "twilight effect" is a better term?) style as Sansar.

If you want a little bit of perspective, here is the 2007 benchmark:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/sanctuary

2008:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/tropics

2009:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/heaven

and 2013:

https://benchmark.unigine.com/valley

Where in this progression does Sansar fit in?

Sansar seems to be about at the level of "Heaven" (2009).

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1 hour ago, animats said:

The main edge Sansar has is professional artists.

It also has/had subsidized investment/interest. I don't recall the last time LL had monthly build contests in SL with 4 or 5 figure USD payouts, heh.

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On 1/16/2018 at 6:49 AM, Luna Bliss said:

These are lovely photos of Sansar:

Well, sort of. #1 isn't bad, except why does the lighthouse of Pharos of Alexandria, one of the wonders of the ancient world, have a California precast concrete freeway bridge leading to it? #2 has sharp shadows on a dull day. #3 is "see, we can distort models along a spline curve!". If you want it to look real, more subtlety is needed.

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34 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

It also has/had subsidized investment/interest. I don't recall the last time LL had monthly build contests in SL with 4 or 5 figure USD payouts, heh.

Yes but let's be fair. It wouldn't be unusual or inapproriate for a company to hold such contests to kickstart a new product.

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On 1/16/2018 at 4:49 PM, Luna Bliss said:

These are lovely photos of Sansar:

Photo 1 Sansar -  Skye Naturae Virtualis 1024.jpg

 

This picture gives me the feeling that there is something wrong with the lighting. Parts of the skin are washed out with too much brightness on them. On comparison the scene in general looks dull, almost as if there was no direct sunlight hitting it. Thus the scene does not look real.

In many experiences in Sansar the lighting appears to be too harsh, too much contrast, highlights washed out, shadows too dark even almost black. On other cases the scene can be plain dull with lots of haze all over.

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2 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

In many experiences in Sansar the lighting appears to be too harsh, too much contrast, highlights washed out, shadows too dark even almost black. On other cases the scene can be plain dull with lots of haze all over.

The first of Luna's pictures actually manages to be both at the same time. The palms have very exaggerated harsh shadows while the scene as a whole is rather washed out.

Then there is the sky of course and that's something all Sansar images I've seen have in common. It's aged late 19th/early 20th C. oil on canvas. I find it hard to believe the Sansar developers have ever been outdoors in RL and seen how it looks there.

Edited by ChinRey
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Well, I actually posted this before posting the photos:

"Let me see if I can find some photos of Sansar without the sepia look or "candlelight effect" as you say....if that only means yellow?"

Some earlier had said all of Sansar was yellow, cloudy, so dark you couldn't build....so was just showing that's not the case.

But the shadows...not sure I'm happy with every aspect of the shadows at Sansar, but I do see the default is placed at some time in the afternoon rather than the harsh light of noon, giving a more surreal look that I do like. Shadows on avatars seem too strange though. I'll have to investigate in Sansar as one always can't tell from photos.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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On 1/16/2018 at 12:41 PM, ChinRey said:

Where in this progression does Sansar fit in?

The photorealism in those videos is very beautiful indeed -- I especially liked the rainstorm in the forest. And yes, I admit Sansar is not at the the technical level of those game engines (at least from the videos presented, but I'd really need to see those game engines in action with VR going on to say for sure or say how much better the other game engines are).
The thing is, VR is so intense and amazing and lends such extreme reality to a virtual presence that this easily could supercede photorealism. I was traveling down the Grand Canyon in VR, and the rocks were kind of clunky, and the plants a bit blobby in places (that type of look isn't one I like, a stylized look), but I FELT more like I was in the Grand Canyon than actually being there in RL!
Some say you'll never need much photorealism, however, I know people are working to get more photorealism in VR. It's just so resource intensive right now, and the goggles don't even support much resolution (though I heard PPI increased with a few recent goggle updates).

Edited by Luna Bliss

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On 1/16/2018 at 1:12 PM, Love Zhaoying said:
On 1/16/2018 at 8:40 AM, Luna Bliss said:

Which flaws are you referring to? I don't see any flaws at this point except for some of those psychopath-appearing avatars with their emotionless expressions...reminds me of that ax-wielding murderer in the original Fargo movie..lol.

But...I realize so much has not been implemented in Sansar yet,

So..lack of features isn’t a flaw? I used to read the actual Sansar forum and was disappointed how few are there participating in the discussion of..”flaws”.

If Sansar had said "Here you go, here's Sansar, we're done!".......then yes, the lack of features would be flaws.
But, they have repeatedly said this is Creator Beta...that means they are in the process of developing it...and so they haven't gotten to all those features yet.
It's like when I create a whole sim for someone, or a big skybox....I stand in the beginning and look out at it in its barely begun state...but would I say it has 'flaws' when not much has been created yet? No, I'd say it has manifestations yet to come..lol.
'Flaws' is so negative...so judgemental...it implies someone has done something wrong...but how can you be wrong when something is just not developed fully yet...when it's in process?

* Features are being discussed in other places, like the meetings and on an additional forum.

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5 hours ago, Coby Foden said:
On 1/16/2018 at 8:49 AM, Luna Bliss said:

These are lovely photos of Sansar:

Photo 1 Sansar -  Skye Naturae Virtualis 1024.jpg

 

This picture gives me the feeling that there is something wrong with the lighting. Parts of the skin are washed out with too much brightness on them. On comparison the scene in general looks dull, almost as if there was no direct sunlight hitting it. Thus the scene does not look real.

I think they did a pretty good job with the dappled light in a forest look where sun is streaming through in spots, highlighting various plants. Not such a good job on the avatar though like you say...parts of skin washed out.

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3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I find it hard to believe the Sansar developers have ever been outdoors in RL and seen how it looks there.

Outdoors at noon, or at late afternoon?

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16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If Sansar had said "Here you go, here's Sansar, we're done!".......then yes, the lack of features would be flaws.
But, they have repeatedly said this is Creator Beta...that means they are in the process of developing it...and so they haven't gotten to all those features yet.
It's like when I create a whole sim for someone, or a big skybox....I stand in the beginning and look out at it in its barely begun state...but would I say it has 'flaws' when not much has been created yet? No, I'd say it has manifestations yet to come..lol.
'Flaws' is so negative...so judgemental...it implies someone has done something wrong...but how can you be wrong when something is just not developed fully yet...when it's in process?

* Features are being discussed in other places, like the meetings and on an additional forum.

But in SL, you could see the potential and ACTUALIZE that because SL has....features!!!

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