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I don't ''get'' Sansar

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Luna, is this the "appealing surreal look" you wanted?

clockhaven-shadows_002.thumb.jpg.f0974a0aad0aee7fa9e5debea9b7ad97.jpg

That's the New Babbage docks in winter, with New Babbage's standard lighting and rendering options at max. New Babbage, unlike most of Second Life, has people who care about and work on the aesthetic. They have a building code and building inspection, to keep the quality up, and an annual Oiling Festival during which problems are fixed.

Sansar's few experiences are mostly the creations of pro designers. That's why they look good. It's not the technology.

Edited by animats
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2 hours ago, animats said:

If you want to make SL look like Sansar, the tools are there.

Does anybody remember Loz Hyde's Grand Hall. It was the feature of the very first promo video for Sansar. Here is a picture from the SL version - taken with ultra graphics and AM Radio's Nostalgia windlight - probably not the best choice but close enough:

5a59610770045_GrandHall_001800.png.8ee17cfbb6688bdf924d624174f35700.png

The scale is way off but that's because wrong scales are traditional in SL, they don't have to be.

It also has some LoD issues but that's because the creator didn't put much effort into the SL upload - it's just a quick-and-dirty port of a building he made for a film set after all.

I was going to add a long rant here but I think I'll let the picture speak for itself for now.

Edited by ChinRey
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20 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Does anybody remember Loz Hyde's Grand Hall. It was the feature of the very first promo video for Sansar. Here is a picture from the SL version - taken with ultra graphics and AM Radio's Nostalgia windlight - probably not the best choice but close enough:

5a59610770045_GrandHall_001800.png.8ee17cfbb6688bdf924d624174f35700.png

The scale is way off but that's because wrong scales are traditional in SL, they don't have to be.

It also has some LoD issues but that's because the creator didn't put much effort into the SL upload - it's just a quick-and-dirty port of a building he made for a film set after all.

I was going to add a long rant here but I think I'll let the picture speak for itself for now.

Are we supposed to be impressed or disappointed?

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7 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Are we supposed to be impressed or disappointed?

I don't know. Looking at it now, that picture didn't really make the point it was supposed to. ;)

Edit: The idea was of course to use a building that is found both in SL and Sansar to illustrate the differences and similarities. But it faied, aprtly because there is a difference in how much care and time the builder spent uploading the mesh, but mostly because I couldn't really find a windlight setting to match well enough in a hurry. One thing the post proves, though, is: don't try to write elaborate forum posts at 3 AM. :P

 

Edited by ChinRey
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lespantochurch_001.thumb.png.21d5d793ca29a256ca06566346fdd786.png

Lespanto Church, a real-world church modeled in SL.

A project of the Roman Catholic Church, this is their official presence in Second Life. It's an example of how good a job you can do in SL, within SL prim and texture budget limits. All the detail is there. Take a close look at the pictures, the stained glass windows, the books open on the altar.

Ultra rendering settings, full-resolution PNG snapshot. The main lack here is shadows. Only some objects in SL can cast or receive shadows. Most users don't have shadows turned on, but they do work if you have the graphics power.

Edited by animats
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so over and over again we are shown that second life can be everything and anything sansar claims it can be after god knows how many fixes and updates., Except of course, second life is a real world and sansar is just a builders sandbox.

If we already have everything in SL why oh why is LL throwing money at something obviously doomed to fail?

oh i forgot, 3d goggles 

*rolls eyes*

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3 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

so over and over again we are shown that second life can be everything and anything sansar claims it can be after god knows how many fixes and updates., Except of course, second life is a real world and sansar is just a builders sandbox.

If we already have everything in SL why oh why is LL throwing money at something obviously doomed to fail?

  1. the VR fad
  2. SL lacks a casual gaming model
  3. SL lacks ad-based monetization

So far, the big "experiences" in Sansar seem to be a Star Wars ad and a Ready Player One ad.

What would make SL attractive to people who only had time to spend half an hour a day there? That's LL's big problem.

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On 1/13/2018 at 2:08 PM, animats said:
  1. the VR fad
  2. SL lacks a casual gaming model
  3. SL lacks ad-based monetization

So far, the big "experiences" in Sansar seem to be a Star Wars ad and a Ready Player One ad.

What would make SL attractive to people who only had time to spend half an hour a day there? That's LL's big problem.

ewwww what if LL put ads on the log in screen or ads while u are teleporting

Edited by BilliJo Aldrin
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On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:33 PM, ChinRey said:

I don't know. Looking at it now, that picture didn't really make the point it was supposed to. ;)

Edit: The idea was of course to use a building that is found both in SL and Sansar to illustrate the differences and similarities. But it faied, aprtly because there is a difference in how much care and time the builder spent uploading the mesh, but mostly because I couldn't really find a windlight setting to match well enough in a hurry. One thing the post proves, though, is: don't try to write elaborate forum posts at 3 AM. :P

 

I guess if you posted pics of both versions (SL and Sansar), we would be better able to judge!  Otherwise, I can't tell if that's supposed to be a "good" picture in SL, and can't tell what it is being compared to. :P:x

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16 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

ewwww what if LL put ads on the log in screen or ads while u are teleporting

They should do this for "non-premium" users! That will make all the evil land-barons happy who despise free users.

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44 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

They should do this for "non-premium" users! That will make all the evil land-barons happy who despise free users.

It would be another benefit to going premium.... no ads

*looking around for a LL suggestion box*

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2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I guess p*rn in Sansar would make it a 15-minute Experience.

the one thing that would guarantee sansars success is forbidden though

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On 1/12/2018 at 5:41 PM, animats said:

Luna, is this the "appealing surreal look" you wanted?

clockhaven-shadows_002.thumb.jpg.f0974a0aad0aee7fa9e5debea9b7ad97.jpg

That's the New Babbage docks in winter, with New Babbage's standard lighting and rendering options at max. New Babbage, unlike most of Second Life, has people who care about and work on the aesthetic. They have a building code and building inspection, to keep the quality up, and an annual Oiling Festival during which problems are fixed.

Sansar's few experiences are mostly the creations of pro designers. That's why they look good. It's not the technology.

New Babbage looks very beautiful....I will have to explore it soon...

It's difficult to explain just what it is I like better about the lighting in Sansar. Is it the shadows...the reflected light...the computation that allows the perception of an ambient light? Is it a difference in the reflections from the background skyboxes? Somehow it has been tweaked to appear more surreal as a default (of course windlight settings in SL allow the surreal too).
And I'm not saying Sansar lighting is better (at this point in time anyway, as it will improve eventually), I'm really only saying that I prefer it. Maybe one day I'll contemplate light more and can give a clearer idea, but for now I can only say that I perceive it, that I feel it -- light creates a mood, atmosphere, or feeling.

But, the biggest problem for me with SL lighting is that the skybox domes & boxes cast a shadow on my skyboxes, making them way too dark, and so nobody can really take advantage of high graphics settings in a skybox :( Some of these skyboxes I created are the size of entire sims and they are ruined if I put a dome sky on them as they are too dark. And I must have the dome, as for me the background of a scene is a vital as a foreground.
In Sansar however, we can have our choice of various sky domes without the dark shadows it casts in SL.

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On 1/12/2018 at 11:17 AM, ChinRey said:
On 1/12/2018 at 11:11 AM, Luna Bliss said:

Is this a test?

Yes. ^_^

No, it's a rhetorical question of course. Ebbe Altberg has promoted Sansar as the "Wordpress of Virtual Reality".

Wordpress is easy to use both for site owners and visitors, you don't have to wait for ages for a web page to load and anybody with any kind of itnernet connection at all can go there. Those are the secrets of its success and none of it applies to Sansar.

 Sansar plans to be the Wordpress of Virtual Reality by providing a template for creators to develop their own RV spaces in the way that Wordpress provides a creator's template for websites. This is the crux of the comparison - the focus/metaphor should be on the essence - while you are dragging in all sorts of other elements that have nothing to do with what Ebbe said.

However, the additional comparisons are worthy topics to explore in speculating what could or could not enable Sansar, or VR in general, to succeed.
 

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17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 Sansar plans to be the Wordpress of Virtual Reality by providing a template for creators to develop their own RV spaces in the way that Wordpress provides a creator's template for websites.

Yes, I suppose the metaphor works to that extent but you can say that about SL and the countless SL clones too.

Anyway, I really hope I don't give the impression I'm against Sansar as an idea. I'm certainly not, I just think there are so many flaws in its implementation it has very little chance to succeed. But time will show and all we can really do is wait and see.

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6 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Yes, I suppose the metaphor works to that extent but you can say that about SL and the countless SL clones too.

A creator could create their own world using OpenSim but it wouldn't be the same as Sansar. A private region in SL could be used, but in Sansar the experience owner has much more control than is possible in SL. If various LL statements come true, the experience owner can use their own registration system, specify the avatars that are used in the experience, and control the visuals. A visitor can't switch to a different Windlight or change the time of day -- people see things the way experience creator wants. Experience owners will also be able to provide plug-ins that the viewer will use. One of the big advantages of Sansar over SL is deniability. If you create something that helps cure the world's problems in SL, people will still say "Oh, that's the place that has all the porn." Sansar lets an experience owner break away from that; there's no connection between experiences. If you use your own registration system then people can't move easily to other experiences. Does anyone claim that all Wordpress sites are tainted because someone has built a sleazy website using Wordpress?

I agree that this is all words in the wind. In a year or two or three Sansar will be released and we'll see what comes of it.

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

New Babbage looks very beautiful....I will have to explore it soon...

It's difficult to explain just what it is I like better about the lighting in Sansar. Is it the shadows...the reflected light...the computation that allows the perception of an ambient light? Is it a difference in the reflections from the background skyboxes? Somehow it has been tweaked to appear more surreal as a default (of course windlight settings in SL allow the surreal too).
And I'm not saying Sansar lighting is better (at this point in time anyway, as it will improve eventually), I'm really only saying that I prefer it. Maybe one day I'll contemplate light more and can give a clearer idea, but for now I can only say that I perceive it, that I feel it -- light creates a mood, atmosphere, or feeling.

Sansar does do lighting better than SL. SL is slightly off in some ways. That avatar above is not floating above the ground.  That's a problem in SL's shadow rendering. Here's a worse case. That brick wall goes all the way down to the ground slab, and even some distance into it. There's no gap, despite what the lighting shows.

wallgap_001.thumb.jpg.16bfa8be45501d7f7ebda29bfa3724e8.jpg

The avatar and the car appear to be hovering. But they're not. Here's the view from ground level.wallgap_002.thumb.jpg.76c1e40c5c1ed4b4c23674a88a25f3d6.jpg

That's a rendering bug.

Again, it's not inherent in SL that you can't have Sansar-quality rendering. Rendering is all viewer-side. The sim tells you "There's a prim here, with this texture, and lights there, with these parameters." The viewer does the rest. Good project for Firestorm people to juice up rendering to modern standards.

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28 minutes ago, animats said:

Good project for Firestorm people to juice up rendering to modern standards.

No it isn't, not unless you want Firestorm to be blocked from SL that is. But you can always open a JIRA and suggest Linden Lab does it.

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8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I guess if you posted pics of both versions (SL and Sansar), we would be better able to judge!

Yes but with hindsight I think comparing the graphics of Sansar to Second Life is a sidetrack anyway. As Animats has shown, with better windlight settings you can get more than halfway to modern state of the art graphics quality but you can't get all the way. SL doesn't really need to either because it has a number of other special qualities you won't find anywhere else.

Sansar does need to match the state of the art though and the question is, can it?

Looking at all the pictures from Sansar and all the experiences I've seen there (including my own), they all seem to rely heavily on the "candlelight effect". Toned down light, a bit of sepia tint and a hint of haze - that's always easy on the eye and it helps obscure many flaws that would be blatantly obvious in broad daylight. It's an old trick, common for early scifi movies, film noir is heavily based on the black-and-white version and painters have used it at least since the 16th Century to create instant "moodiness". Luna is certainly not the only one to love that effect. Let's admit it, we all do. ^_^ It does get old fast though.

Let's see Sansar at noon on a clear day. Then compare it not to SL but to modern to notch 3D software like UE4. That is the real test.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Looking at all the pictures from Sansar and all the experiences I've seen there (including my own), they all seem to rely heavily on the "candlelight effect". Toned down light, a bit of sepia tint and a hint of haze - that's always easy on the eye and it helps obscure many flaws that would be blatantly obvious in broad daylight. It's an old trick, common for early scifi movies, film noir is heavily based on the black-and-white version and painters have used it at least since the 16th Century to create instant "moodiness". Luna is certainly not the only one to love that effect. Let's admit it, we all do. ^_^ It does get old fast though.

Let's see Sansar at noon on a clear day. Then compare it not to SL but to modern to notch 3D software like UE4. That is the real test.

Good point. That look is nice in still photos, OK for looking around, not good for driving or flying, terrible for building. It's not really appropriate to most situations. New Babbage is set that way for Victorian steampunk ambiance. Few other places are. Because it does get old fast.

Can anyone find a video of Sansar of a nice, clear day? Everything I find looks dark and foggy. Here's a futuristic city nightclub scene in Sansar, from someone who liked the original Blade Runner look:

Watch what happens when the furry avatar with a plastic tail gets hit by a car. It works exactly like being hit by a tram in New Babbage - you get pushed, not knocked aside.

If you like that look, there's a better place in SL - Hangars Liquides.

liquides_001.thumb.jpg.b06c4341e39614666b26429861e688ae.jpg

That's at Hangars Liquides (139/176/2184). Mostly abandoned. If you go there, take one of the cabs and get the tour.

The feeling I'm getting about Sansar technically is that it works like SL with more server capacity, bigger prim allowances, and higher viewer specs. But beyond that, it's not a big advance.

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Once you have adequate technology, the business model matters a lot. There has to be enough incentive for people to build in the world, keep the servers going, and market enough to get users. SL is there, barely.

With no marketing and no business model, nobody is there. OpenSim/Hypergrid, which is an open source SL clone, shows this. Peak avatars today, 115 for the whole grid. The technology is fine. The business model is a near failure. I admire the people behind it for keeping it going, but nobody is using it. It may be possible to market Sansar into a success, although it's not compelling enough to do it by itself.

(I have the horrible feeling that the future of Sansar is to acquired by Disney, with Experiences for not just Star Wars and Ready Player One, but every princess in the Disney pantheon plus the Marvel Overexpanded Universe. With lots of in-world stuff to purchase.)

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4 hours ago, animats said:

OpenSim/Hypergrid, which is an open source SL clone, shows this. Peak avatars today, 115 for the whole grid. The technology is fine. The business model is a near failure. I admire the people behind it for keeping it going, but nobody is using it.

OSGrid is a non-commercial foundation of course and it has no paid employees. They only need to get enough donations to run and maintain five servers and their "business model" is more than good enough for that so it's hardly a failure. It's a similar story with most of the alternative grids: they are run by hobbyists and enthusiasts who don't really worry about making money from them. But when it comes to the few grids that actually try to be commercial - yeah.

 

4 hours ago, animats said:

(I have the horrible feeling that the future of Sansar is to acquired by Disney...

Why would that be horrible?

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