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I don't ''get'' Sansar

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On 1/10/2018 at 11:37 AM, ChinRey said:
On 1/10/2018 at 9:20 AM, Luna Bliss said:

Regarding download time, there are of course many advantages conferred by not updating in real time as SL does, and someone with a good computer and connection does not have to wait more than a minute or two at Sansar, although I imagine wait time will increase as the complexity of Experiences increases.

There are two important points there. Yes, somebody with a "good" computer and - even more important - a high spec broadband connection, may achieve better load times but then the question is, who is Sansar for? Is it supposed to be the new virtual reality for everybody or is it only for the few "power users"? Linden Lab has never been clear about that and right now the whole thing seems to fall between two chairs. More specifically: how interesting is it for Big Real Life Business Inc. to invest time and money on a medium 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of their potential customers will never have access to?

I think once enough people update to VR standards this will set a kind of baseline that will not require such extreme updating in the future. I had to purchase a new PC since my existing PC was several years old and could not access VR. Normally I would have kept it for 5 years or more before updating, but I was too excited to experience VR now (actually I got a laptop that is VR-ready).
It seems requirements to experience VR right now will will be a part of all mid-range PC's in a couple of years. Even now you can purchase a PC costing around 1000 usd that is VR-ready, or even cheaper. And so, I don't think Sansar would need to worry about having a sufficient customer base, at least not on that account.
I'm more worried about internet companies increasing costs too dramatically due to net neutrality issues, as this would incur an added monthly expense for some that might be too costly to bear. Though just a US problem currently, would other countries follow suit?

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On 1/10/2018 at 11:37 AM, ChinRey said:

I know you can't expect the same load times from a virtual reality as from a web page but that doesn't change the fact that people's minds do start wander after just a few seconds. Ten seconds of idle waiting and there's bound to be something else that has their attention.

This may not be a problem for a single Sansar experience because then it's the same as when you launch a computer game. You start it, go get yourself a cup of coffee or something while you wait, then you return to spend an hour or two of quality time in a single environment. But for Atlas hopping or other "casual browsing" a minute load time for each experience is way too long. Ten seconds would be pushing the limits.

Download times...well you still have to consider all these people paying big bucks to play all these games that take time to download -- they are accustomed to going to a hub like Oculus or Steam, and waiting for games/experiences to download, and I see Sansar as a hub like this in many ways.
Even for the casual interne tbrowser you mentioned though, if the Experiences were compelling enough I think most would cope with download times.


Inroads to Sansar might more likely come from outside those browsing and chancing across the Atlas catalog. Imagine a furniture store putting a link on their website so a potential customer could enter into the VR section (linked to Sansar) and experience how that sofa or bed looks in a room. Or maybe museum enthusiasts visit a museum website and enter the Sansar representation via the museum website. Or say a musician links from their website to their virtual concert in a Sansar Experience. Or a hospital teaching facility puts a link on their website so students can easily access a teaching Experience they created in Sansar.

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On 1/11/2018 at 7:25 AM, Whirly Fizzle said:

Even worse, there's 4096x4096 textures still kicking about from the old days.

lol I think I still have one of those in my inventory...before I knew what I was doing....I keep it just to laugh at it.

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On 1/10/2018 at 5:28 PM, animats said:

As I've mentioned before, Sansar is way below the Unreal 4 game engine in visual quality. Sansar is roughly 2005 game technology.

While I don't fully understand all the graphics specs you've mentioned, I notice an appealing surreal look with the shadows and lighting, and even the sound is somewhat surreal....what causes that?

I kicked over a bucket at an experience too and it fell in a very surreal way.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think once enough people update to VR standards this will set a kind of baseline that will not require such extreme updating in the future.

...
It seems requirements to experience VR right now will will be a part of all mid-range PC's in a couple of years.

No, I can't see that happening. Sorry.

World wide personal computer sales have been dropping stradily for years now (5.7% in 2016) and there is very little to suggest that is going to change. The PC isn't a consumer item for the future. A desktop computer isn't even a mass market product today and it hasn't been for years. If there is going to be a mass market for VR at all, it will be fore environments and software solutions that run smoothly on a netboard or even on a smartphone.

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2 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The PC isn't a consumer item for the future.

You may be right. I haven't looked at the stats. All I know is that everyone I know has both a smart phone and a desktop, and they update their PC every 5 or so years.

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9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

All I know is that everyone I know has both a smart phone and a desktop

Sadly, I know more and more people with a "laptop"/"notebook" instead of a desktop.  Poor saps!

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27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

While I don't fully understand all the graphics specs you've mentioned, I notice an appealing surreal look with the shadows and lighting, and even the sound is somewhat surreal....what causes that?

The short story is that LL has been sleeping in class. They failed to notice that computer simulation technology has advanced in leaps and bounds and the solutions they thought were cutting edge in 2014 were already a bit outdated at that time and even more outdated today. The list of new breakthroughs they seem to have completely missed, is too long to post here really but we've already mentioned SpeedTrees and other procedural object placement and generation methods. (The irony there is that LL was actually one of the pioneers in this but then they seem to have forgotten all about it.)

Then, of course, Vulkan came along at the worst possible moment for Linden Lab, too late for them to build Sansar's render engine around it but early enough for any new wannabe competitors. It's too early to be sure if Vulkan will live up to its promises but if it does and Sansar can't be switched to it, all hope is definitely lost and any render engine built around OpenGl or DirextX will be hopelessly outdated two years from now.

Edited by ChinRey

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2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Sadly, I know more and more people with a "laptop"/"notebook" instead of a desktop.  Poor saps!

Unfortunately true; however, I know a lot who are switching back to desktop after seeing just how poorly their laptops actually perform. Personally, I've never owned a laptop nor will I ever. 

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4 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Unfortunately true; however, I know a lot who are switching back to desktop after seeing just how poorly their laptops actually perform.

There is a lot to that but the bottom line is Sansar will never have anything even remotely resembling a mass market if it can't be run effectively on a mid range laptop and even that will probably be too high hardware requirements.

This goes for Second Life too of course but SL already has a hard of core of die-hard fans (even thoguh they always complain about anything). It doesn't need to attract big new user groups to survive.

Edited by ChinRey

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I have no trouble running Sansar on a four year old machine that meets the lowest requirements for desktop. I don't use a VR headset and doubt that I ever will. That doesn't stop me from loving the time I spend in Sansar with some of the most enjoyable people I've met online.

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4 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

There is a lot to that but the bottom line is Sansar will never have anything even remotely resembling a mass market if it can't be run effectively on a mid range laptop and even that will probably be too high hardware requirements.

This goes for Second Life too of course but SL already has a hard of core of die-hard fans (even thoguh they always complain about anything). It doesn't need to attract big new user groups to survive.

Ironic, isn't it, that SL runs fine on some PC's that Sansar won't?

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9 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The short story is that LL has been sleeping in class. They failed to notice that computer simulation technology has advanced in leaps and bounds and the solutions they thought were cutting edge in 2014 were already a bit outdated at that time and even more outdated today. The list of new breakthroughs they seem to have completely missed, is too long to post here really but we've already mentioned SpeedTrees and other procedural object placement and generation methods. (The irony there is that LL was actually one of the pioneers in this but then they seem to have forgotten all about it.)

Then, of course, Vulkan came along at the worst possible moment for Linden Lab, too late for them to build Sansar's render engine around it but early enough for any new competitors. It's too early to be sure if Vulkan will live up to its promises but if it does and Sansar can't be switched to it, all hope is definitely lost and any render engine built around OpenGl or DirextX will be hopelessly outdated two years from now.

There could be other considerations that determine the success or failure of Sansar...something besides the 'best' or 'most optimized' graphics. For example, Wordpress is a great success but I don't think they necessarily have the absolute best websites.

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ironic, isn't it, that SL runs fine on some PC's that Sansar won't?

Strangely, I am having the opposite problem with my 3-year-old desktop -- it runs fine in Sansar but the fan is working like crazy in SL and I've had to resort to low graphic settings.

I'm accessing VR with a new laptop.

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

For example, Wordpress is a great success but I don't think they necessarily have the absolute best websites.

What are the hardware requirements for accessing a Worpress web site?

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10 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

There is a lot to that but the bottom line is Sansar will never have anything even remotely resembling a mass market if it can't be run effectively on a mid range laptop and even that will probably be too high hardware requirements.

What do you consider a mid-range laptop?

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2 minutes ago, ChinRey said:
5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

For example, Wordpress is a great success but I don't think they necessarily have the absolute best websites.

What are the hardware requirements for accessing a Worpress web site?

Is this a test?

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Well, all this rests on whether VR will be ubiquitous in the future....as commonplace as the way we experience the internet now.

I think it could...well, if the ice caps don't melt, and the mushroom clouds don't appear, and the Western world does not collapse...

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Is this a test?

Yes. ^_^

No, it's a rhetorical question of course. Ebbe Altberg has promoted Sansar as the "Wordpress of Virtual Reality".

Wordpress is easy to use both for site owners and visitors, you don't have to wait for ages for a web page to load and anybody with any kind of itnernet connection at all can go there. Those are the secrets of its success and none of it applies to Sansar.

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8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What do you consider a mid-range laptop?

Good question. A 2 Ghz-or so dual core processor probably and certainly no gpu.

But as I said, even that may be - probably will be - too high requirements for a mass market medium i the future.

Edited by ChinRey

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1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

Ebbe Altberg has promoted Sansar as the "Wordpress of Virtual Reality".

Wordpress is easy to use both for site owners and visitors, you don't have to wait for ages for a web page to load and anybody with any kind of itnernet connection at all can go there. Those are the secrets of its success and none of it applies to Sansar.

I think you are doing to have to get a VR head set and actually experience some of these hubs (Oculus, Steam) before you fully understand Sansar.

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Just now, Luna Bliss said:

I think you are doing to have to get a VR head set and actually experience some of these hubs (Oculus, Steam) before you fully understand Sansar.

Yes. And your point is?

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1 minute ago, ChinRey said:
2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think you are doing to have to get a VR head set and actually experience some of these hubs (Oculus, Steam) before you fully understand Sansar.

Yes. And your point is?

I'm only suggesting something that could help, as you really seem to want to understand the point of Sansar, evidenced by all your efforts to understand it in this thread and others.

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30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm only suggesting something that could help, as you really seem to want to understand the point of Sansar, evidenced by all your efforts to understand it in this thread and others.

Thank you. ^_^

That brings us to a slightly different topic actually. Face it:

  • Sansar will never become the "Wordpress of Virtual Reality" because it has none of the qualities that made Wordpress a success
  • Sansar will never be the VR environment for the masses because even if VR catches on, the mass market will be all about cheap, basic rigs like Google cardboard, not expensive high tech thingies like Occulus Rift.
  • Sansar will never be a showroom for designers and architects and big companies because what they need and want is something their potential customer can log on to and look at not only from their homes but even while they are sitting waiting at the dentist's or at a bus stop or elsewhere out in the nowhere.

All that is just unrealistic hype. What Linden Lab - conciously or subconciously - tried to make, is a showroom for experiences created by and for people with a far above average interest in the technology of virtual reality. A good analogy here is in music. Today most people go to Spotify or YouTube or whatever when they want some music but there are still some enthusiasts who spend lots of money on hifi equipment to get what they perceive as the very best possible sound quality. Quite often, they don't seem to care much what music they listen to as long as the sound quality is great. ;)

It's the VR equivalent of those hifi enthusiasts who are the actual target market for Sansar, not anybody else. It's a pity the name High Fidelity was already taken because it would ave fitted Sansar very well. The questions then are, is that "elite" market big enough and does Sansar appeal to those people? I think the answer to the first question is yes but for the second, no. Because those people will want the very best - or at least what they believe is the very best - regardless of the price and the effort required to get there. Sansar doesn't give them that. There are alredy several better options for them today and I would be very surprised if there wont be even more soon.

One reason why I think Sansar can't compete in the high end market is that LL simply didn't have the expertise they needed to develop a product for it. Another more important reason is that they keep looking at that mass market and they want it so much and they try to reach it and the result is that they fall between to chairs. Or to sue another metaphor. They try to make something for the champagne and caviar people and then they try to make it available to everybody by watering down the champagne.

Edited by ChinRey

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6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

While I don't fully understand all the graphics specs you've mentioned, I notice an appealing surreal look with the shadows and lighting, and even the sound is somewhat surreal....what causes that?

Artistic choices and rendering power.  Here's a picture of the SL Waterhead Welcome Area with common rendering settings.

waterhead-std_001.thumb.jpg.a52c362c05474566bc05cbb08356954b.jpg

Same scene, but with highest rendering settings in SL, plus a change to the scene lighting to early twilight.

waterhead-std_003.thumb.jpg.97d8a4a6b10f59d447521c6fbfb2ec43.jpg

Frame rate on my machine is about 20fps at these settings.

SL's night is rather bright, but doesn't have to be. Here's New Babbage at night, lit only by the few street lights and the tram's headlamp.

newbabbagetram.jpg.cdbc60d30ff17bc1368f97274809eba9.jpg

Here's Dark Alley, the roleplay area, rendered as, well, a dark alley.

darkalleystore.jpg.9e89f1edfe6b5849b8e2882ff0a78edb.jpg

If you want to make SL look like Sansar, the tools are there.

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