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Adams Scarmon

I don't ''get'' Sansar

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Downloaded Sansar today..

 

I heard a lot of stuff about it but I dont really get it.

Is it a new SL where you can create things?

It kind of reminds me of a glorified IMVU without the cool stores to buy things.

 

What exactly is LL trying to achieve with Sansar?

It seems to me MILLIONS of USD were invested in a project that just doesn't seem justified enough.

I can't stop imagining how more wonderful SL would have been if that money was spent on .. SL.

Are we just the cash cows to finance Sansar?

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It's a platform that other people can use to create virtual worlds, to which you, a mere second life peasant, will be allowed to enter.

Go look around and ooooo and ahhhhh at the pretty experiences, then come back and live your second life.

I prefer watching a nature or travel video myself, the textures and detail of those builds are amazing.

And yes, LL has bled SL white to fund Sansar. Hopefully when Sansar dies they can use some of the things they learned creating Sansar to make second life even better.

 

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1 hour ago, Adams Scarmon said:

Is it a new SL where you can create things?

No, it's a very different concept and you can't really compare it to SL at all.

 

1 hour ago, Adams Scarmon said:

It kind of reminds me of a glorified IMVU without the cool stores to buy things.

That's a better comparasion, yes.

 

1 hour ago, Adams Scarmon said:

What exactly is LL trying to achieve with Sansar?

I'm not sure if even Linden Lab knows for sure. :P

What I think happened, was that LL started working on a complete revamp of Second Life and when they realized they couldn't do that, it was too late to just scrap the whole project. So they redefined it as a brand new product instead.

 

1 hour ago, Adams Scarmon said:

I can't stop imagining how more wonderful SL would have been if that money was spent on .. SL.

Money isn't everything. LL has actually done a far better job improving SL in the last four years than they ever did before.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, Adams Scarmon said:

Downloaded Sansar today..

 

I heard a lot of stuff about it but I dont really get it.

Is it a new SL where you can create things?

It kind of reminds me of a glorified IMVU without the cool stores to buy things.

 

What exactly is LL trying to achieve with Sansar?

It seems to me MILLIONS of USD were invested in a project that just doesn't seem justified enough.

I can't stop imagining how more wonderful SL would have been if that money was spent on .. SL.

Are we just the cash cows to finance Sansar?

I think the reason most people don't "get" Sansar is that they haven't spent enough time exploring all the new worlds already here and in development.
Whether we like it or not (and I do like certain unique aspects of SL) there are new worlds developing that are going to blow SL out of the water. Those newer places are going to be where many want to go -- in search of the new 'shiny'. Just as those in There and Active Worlds went to Second Life when it was the new 'shiny', so they will flock to the newer worlds beyond SL.

SL simply can't be improved as much as we'd like, as it was built a certain way years ago and this causes limitations. Sometimes it's easier to start from scratch, especially when changing things too much could break our content. They tried to get VR going in SL but it wouldn't work well, and all the new shiny worlds have VR -- sometimes it's not even advertised clearly and just seems to be assumed that VR is an option in some of these worlds. And one day I think it will be as easy (or easier) to build in VR as it is in SL. Check out Medium from Oculus to see this.

But Sansar, specifically...it's in the earliest stages. It's not fair to judge it yet, especially in the sense of it being a a new 'home' like we feel SL is. But even now you can buy from the Sansar Marketplace and assemble your own world there -- have your own space for free!
But I get a sense it will more be used for companies wanting a VR presence eventually.
I think LL pretty much had to build Sansar. I mean were they supposed to wait around while all the new people interested in virtual worlds chose these fabulous new shiny worlds developing as they watched the sim count decline week by week, or cater to us die-hards who are actually dying in RL at an alarming rate, or at the very least losing interest in virtual life altogether.

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Well I think sansar is cool for VR experiences.

 

Like... a big event somewhere in the world and you cant be there physically so you put on your VR goggles and then you can still participate in the event.. Something like that.

 

I dont really think its meant as a game or anything. It has too many limitations that made SL special.

I think what would have been a better idea is create a Secondlife 2.0 where they focus on VR and improved architecture of the databases, rather than having a new product that nobody really knows what is is and what we should use it for.

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3 minutes ago, Adams Scarmon said:

I think what would have been a better idea is create a Secondlife 2.0 where they focus on VR and improved architecture of the databases, rather than having a new product that nobody really knows what is is and what we should use it for.

My guess is that they saw the competition out there and felt a better bet (financially) was to develop a niche market. VR is being used a lot even now, by all sorts of companies, but you really have to pay to get a presence. With Sansar it might be cheaper to get a presence, and easier. Kind of like how years ago it cost a LOT to get a website made and you had to hire a specialist, whereas now anybody can create a website with Wordpress. Even me, and I am rather tech-challenged.

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31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

there are new worlds developing that are going to blow SL out of the water.

Let me know when that happens.  I would love to see that.  Everything seemed so isolated and limited when I poked my head in before.

 

33 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

all the new shiny worlds have VR

This is not a selling point for me.  I'm an old hag and prefer keyboard, mouse and monitor.  If it ends up like most console game ports where you "can" run it on a PC but the controls are a confusing workaround (kind of like what I have seen in my brief explorations so far) then I may just let this pass.

Don't get me wrong, I want Sansar to succeed.  I want to do everything I can do in SL, just faster, prettier and better IP protection.  However I also want to do it without having to put on and take off a headset while I watch TV, do laundry, play with the grand-kids and everything else I do in RL while I'm logged into SL.  If VR is optional in the same sense that a mouse is optional hardware for Windows, I don't think it is for me. :(

 

 

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Sansar is confusing, because even its creators are not certain what it should "be for"-for lack of better terminology on my part. LL has no idea what they have done, what they have created, and most certainly how to better direct users in regards to what "it's for"-again, lack of better terminology on my part. 

For all the wonderful things LL has done, there is one thing they have lacked for a very long time, and that is an understanding of both their product(s) and their audience(target, or otherwise). Until they do get a better hold on those things, we'll continue to see "wtf LL" moments, confused users(in regards to *all* of LL's products), and a general distrust that LL has any inkling what they're doing. Don't get me wrong, they have tons of potential, capability and even resources...they're just not so great at putting it all to good use.

People have been clammering for years about all these new products, virtual environments, worlds, games, etc... that are all going to blow Sl out of the water....and we haven't seen it yet, not even once. The very same claims have been around for well over a decade at this point...and nothing has blown Sl out of the water or even really been in any competition with SL. There is nothing on the horizon that could even potentially have that effect, either. There also won't be, for a very long time, unless someone with nearly limitless resources and intimate knowledge of what makes Sl what it is, comes along.  But, that has a lot to do with the USERS of this virtual environment. Yes, without LL, we'd not have SL, but without users, LL would have nothing at all. So, the vast majority of the credit ought to go to the users, as we're the ones that keep this place going, relevant, without competition, etc. LL has the power to shut the lights off, sure, and they COULD have the power to keep the place going amazingly.....again, if they'd employ the resources available to them properly. But, there is no fear of something taking over where SL is lacking, not even remotely. I work with an organization that has been attempting to do just that, for a couple of years now, some might be surprised at how difficult it actually is. That product is the *closest thing to competition I have seen in a long time and it's at least a couple years away from even an alpha phase. Even then, it's not really competition, but rather a collective of various components from virtual environments, worlds, games, etc.. the best parts, from the last 20 or so years from some of the more successful ones. It takes a hell of a lot longer to develop these things than people think, especially for companies that lack the kind of resources others, like LL, have at their disposal. There *is* no competition on the horizon, at all. I'm pretty sure people that think otherwise, are quite confused, lol. 

Sansar isn't all it was cracked up to be, by any standards. There was a lot of hype, much ado....about nothing. The average sl user is absolutely NOT part of the target audience for Sansar(they never were, to be honest). Sansar is not SL 2.0-despite being touted as such by far too many. It's not even remotely close. In fact, even those who utilize it heavily, aren't all that sure precisely what it "is". They may enjoy it, they may enjoy Sansar's version of "creating"(which isn't like Sl, really), but, they can't truly tell you what it "is", either. Some folks can tell you what *they think it is, but, it's all up to personal interpretation-even more so than Sl is, lol. 

I'm not saying Sansar is necessarily bad, just that it was touted to be something it's not, and can't even be....may never be. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Sansar is confusing, because even its creators are not certain what it should "be for"-for lack of better terminology on my part. LL has no idea what they have done, what they have created, and most certainly how to better direct users in regards to what "it's for"-again, lack of better terminology on my part. 

For all the wonderful things LL has done, there is one thing they have lacked for a very long time, and that is an understanding of both their product(s) and their audience(target, or otherwise). Until they do get a better hold on those things, we'll continue to see "wtf LL" moments, confused users(in regards to *all* of LL's products), and a general distrust that LL has any inkling what they're doing. Don't get me wrong, they have tons of potential, capability and even resources...they're just not so great at putting it all to good use.

People have been clammering for years about all these new products, virtual environments, worlds, games, etc... that are all going to blow Sl out of the water....and we haven't seen it yet, not even once. The very same claims have been around for well over a decade at this point...and nothing has blown Sl out of the water or even really been in any competition with SL. There is nothing on the horizon that could even potentially have that effect, either. There also won't be, for a very long time, unless someone with nearly limitless resources and intimate knowledge of what makes Sl what it is, comes along.  But, that has a lot to do with the USERS of this virtual environment. Yes, without LL, we'd not have SL, but without users, LL would have nothing at all. So, the vast majority of the credit ought to go to the users, as we're the ones that keep this place going, relevant, without competition, etc. LL has the power to shut the lights off, sure, and they COULD have the power to keep the place going amazingly.....again, if they'd employ the resources available to them properly. But, there is no fear of something taking over where SL is lacking, not even remotely. I work with an organization that has been attempting to do just that, for a couple of years now, some might be surprised at how difficult it actually is. That product is the *closest thing to competition I have seen in a long time and it's at least a couple years away from even an alpha phase. Even then, it's not really competition, but rather a collective of various components from virtual environments, worlds, games, etc.. the best parts, from the last 20 or so years from some of the more successful ones. It takes a hell of a lot longer to develop these things than people think, especially for companies that lack the kind of resources others, like LL, have at their disposal. There *is* no competition on the horizon, at all. I'm pretty sure people that think otherwise, are quite confused, lol. 

Sansar isn't all it was cracked up to be, by any standards. There was a lot of hype, much ado....about nothing. The average sl user is absolutely NOT part of the target audience for Sansar(they never were, to be honest). Sansar is not SL 2.0-despite being touted as such by far too many. It's not even remotely close. In fact, even those who utilize it heavily, aren't all that sure precisely what it "is". They may enjoy it, they may enjoy Sansar's version of "creating"(which isn't like Sl, really), but, they can't truly tell you what it "is", either. Some folks can tell you what *they think it is, but, it's all up to personal interpretation-even more so than Sl is, lol. 

I'm not saying Sansar is necessarily bad, just that it was touted to be something it's not, and can't even be....may never be. 

 

Really good post.

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53 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

there are new worlds developing that are going to blow SL out of the water.

Let me know when that happens.  I would love to see that.  Everything seemed so isolated and limited when I poked my head in before.

oh you mean you've experienced VR....or do you mean you just researched...?

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54 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

However I also want to do it without having to put on and take off a headset while I watch TV, do laundry, play with the grand-kids and everything else I do in RL while I'm logged into SL. 

haha...yes it can be confining...and I see they are already making the headsets lighter...more like glasses.

Reminds me, my cats are totally freaked out when I do VR. They're used to a normal TV or internet screen, and I imagine it seems like a window to them. They will watch TV at times or watch other internet activities on my screen. But when I'm in VR with my headset on they act agitated and wander around my feet constantly...I can only assume they sense my emotion and can tell I'm interacting with SOMEthing they can't make sense of.

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55 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

othing has blown Sl out of the water or even really been in any competition with SL. There is nothing on the horizon that could even potentially have that effect, either. There also won't be, for a very long time, unless someone with nearly limitless resources and intimate knowledge of what makes Sl what it is, comes along.

Facebook and Microsoft have virtual worlds, but nothing like SL...yet..

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I wish I could explain it, but words fail me. All I can say is that you really feel like you are IN these experiences. Sadly, SL seems kind of flat now...unless I get into a creative high. VR just shoves you right into that creative high...it's magical.

 

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VR isn't in competition with sl. There are still too many limitations, and too many ways in which it can be used that differ from an environment like Sl.

Don't get me wrong, VR has a LOT of potential, and can do amazing things, as can those that work with it, or those that can work with the tech and put it to good use anyway (and I don't just mean the ability to plug and play-those would be end users). My experience with VR began years ago, as a kid, a guinea pig test subject, to work with various different programs and tech available(at the time, and potentially in the future) to aid people with visual limitations, and see how adaptive it can actually be. That participation has greatly diminished over the years, despite advancements in tech, research, even medicine, mostly due to declining vision, but also due to the very limitations that inhibit what VR can be used for, or rather, HOW it can be implemented into daily life. Though that probably ventures way off topic, lol. 

VR is amazing tech, and it has come a VERY long way...but it is nowhere near on the horizon to be used in anything that would be considered to be in competition with SL, or even environments similar to SL. VR worlds, environments, etc.. are a product all of their own, even if they may have some similarities to what can be done in/with an environment like Sl.

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1 minute ago, Tari Landar said:

VR isn't in competition with sl. There are still too many limitations, and too many ways in which it can be used that differ from an environment like Sl.

Oh no I'm not saying now...I'm talking about years down the road....no need for anybody to worry now....

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I don't want to sound snarky about VR...I definitely think it has its place, even if I think some folks working with it are thinking way too far in advance, lol.

When I was little they tried using various forms of it to help aid me when they *thought* the condition I had was somehow treatable(very poor decision on their part, and poor assumption that it was even remotely treatable). It's quite difficult, for me at least and probably a lot of the other guinea pigs like me, to see some of the things people have had to say about using VR and AR to aid(some have even gone as far as saying to cure...shudders) visual impairments, among other health conditions. For years our hopes were dashed, day in, day out...so while I love VR and AR, it's a very much love/hate relationship, lol. My mom was told, before I could even talk, how awesome it would one day be, for me....30+ years later...I'm still waiting for awesome.  So, please forgive me if I come across rude, snarky, or far too judgmental of VR and its relationship to virtual worlds/environments/games, lol. It's not intended to come across that way. I just know how the tech is currently being used, how it's BEEN in use, and, how very far they've still to come. The pretty shiny that we have now(which, I'll admit, is AMAZING in some rights, absolutely stunning how far it's truly come) isn't all it's cracked up to be sometimes :/ Now the focus has been taken off the areas where AR/VR could most be beneficial(not entirely, there is still research/study being done, and still *some* advancements, just not anywhere near where it should be) and instead placed on how people can be entertained by/with it. Us guinea pigs are still sitting here waiting for that awesome, lol. We can't use VR/AR in the same way many others can, because what we have now, in most instances, isn't what we had before-or rather, isn't what was being worked towards(probably not grammatically correct). The end goal has shifted, a LOT.

I do hope, for those that enjoy AR/VR, that they can find a place to utilize it in whatever ways they deem amazing. I just also hope the powers that be, don't lose sight of where and why it started...then one day we can ALL have our awesome, and not just folks that wanna play with it like a toy :D

Wanted to add something...maybe it'll explain my perspective on AR/VR..

These are all the things I have been promised my entire life that AR/VR would one day help me do..and all things that I still can't do, with or without AR/VR. I know these things exist, because I can see them in photos, I can hear some of them, I can even read/listen to others describe them. But...I can't see them. 

Look at a tree and see its leaves, instead of a blurred mess(if I'm lucky to see even that)

Watch the waves roll in on the shores of the lake by my house, and be able to see the water spray as it splashes on the rocks

Stare at my kids faces and really be able to see their eyes, lips, noses, and see all the emotions I know we exhibit with our faces

Watch the wildlife outside and be able to tell the difference between a raccoon and a possum without someone telling me what it is

Be able to walk up and down stairs without needing to hold on to something and feeling around with my feet to make sure I am stepping in the right places...and I want to live somewhere I CAN have stairs. Don't ask me why I like stairs...I don't know. 

Be able to go exploring in nature with my family, which we do anyway, but I surely cannot enjoy the ways they do, because I can't see most of it.

See which way the wind is blowing, without having to feel my way around, just by watching the trees, grass, whatever, blowing

Be able to see the snow, or raindrops, as it's/they're falling down on me while I look up..for now, I settle for feeling it

Play with my alphabet soup without my kids thinking I can't spell (what?I like alphabet soup!!)

Ok, that's enough..my full list, is probably a mile long. The things I can do, I am grateful for, very, very grateful...but I would be lying if I said I didn't wish I could do more, mostly things some probably take for granted. 

 

Edited by Tari Landar
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5 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I don't want to sound snarky about VR.

I totally see why you have mixed feelings about it.

I was impressed to find a company named 'VR For Good', and also avenues for musical artists to create visual representations.

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17 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Wanted to add something...maybe it'll explain my perspective on AR/VR..

These are all the things I have been promised my entire life that AR/VR would one day help me do..and all things that I still can't do, with or without AR/VR. I know these things exist, because I can see them in photos, I can hear some of them, I can even read/listen to others describe them. But...I can't see them. 

Look at a tree and see its leaves, instead of a blurred mess(if I'm lucky to see even that)

Watch the waves roll in on the shores of the lake by my house, and be able to see the water spray as it splashes on the rocks

Stare at my kids faces and really be able to see their eyes, lips, noses, and see all the emotions I know we exhibit with our faces

Watch the wildlife outside and be able to tell the difference between a raccoon and a possum without someone telling me what it is

Be able to walk up and down stairs without needing to hold on to something and feeling around with my feet to make sure I am stepping in the right places...and I want to live somewhere I CAN have stairs. Don't ask me why I like stairs...I don't know. 

Be able to go exploring in nature with my family, which we do anyway, but I surely cannot enjoy the ways they do, because I can't see most of it.

See which way the wind is blowing, without having to feel my way around, just by watching the trees, grass, whatever, blowing

Be able to see the snow, or raindrops, as it's/they're falling down on me while I look up..for now, I settle for feeling it

I  can't even imagine :(

I think I might rather die if I couldn't do some of those things.

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11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I totally see why you have mixed feelings about it.

I was impressed to find a company named 'VR For Good', and also avenues for musical artists to create visual representations.

There are a LOT of really great uses for VR today. It truly does amaze me how far it's come over the years. I'm certain that, at some point, it will be a huge factor in things like SL, even if that's not for a long time, because of the advances they've made. I've seen some f the ways musicians have been able to share their music with those who cannot hear, through VR. It makes me super happy, for everyone, that this is not just a possibility, but a reality today :D

 

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They recently announced some big new breakthrough in "metalenses" which sounds like it could have a significant effect on VR equipment in the future, primarily by cutting down on the cumbersome nature of VR/AR headsets.

Quote

“Metalenses have advantages over traditional lenses,” says Federico Capasso, the Robert L. Wallace Professor of Applied Physics and Vinton Hayes Senior Research Fellow in Electrical Engineering at SEAS and senior author of the research. “Metalenses are thin, easy to fabricate and cost effective. This breakthrough extends those advantages across the whole visible range of light. This is the next big step.”

Source

Not only that but apparently they also have the potential to cut down on some of the computational requirements of VR devices.

Quote

"Chromatic Aberration -- color focal point mismatch resulting from the propagation speed of different frequencies of light -- is one of many visual artifacts causing lack of visual fidelity and realism in augmented and virtual reality," explained Sam Rosen, a vice president at ABI Research.

To correct those artifacts, high-end VR or AR hardware will often use advanced computational techniques to adjust focal points on a color-by-color basis.

"That process is compute-intensive and must be tuned for every model of device," Rosen told TechNewsWorld.

"An improved passive lens which solves this problem could make for better devices by resolving the problem in the underlying physical hardware, making systems simpler and easier to program," he added.

Source

I think VR is still very much in it's infancy, and personally I'm betting more on the new AR devices, but either way I think technological advances such as this are going to make a lot of difference to the viability of VR/AR as a commercial product.

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4 hours ago, Adams Scarmon said:

Downloaded Sansar today..

 

I heard a lot of stuff about it but I dont really get it.

Is it a new SL where you can create things?

It kind of reminds me of a glorified IMVU without the cool stores to buy things.

 

What exactly is LL trying to achieve with Sansar?

It seems to me MILLIONS of USD were invested in a project that just doesn't seem justified enough.

I can't stop imagining how more wonderful SL would have been if that money was spent on .. SL.

Are we just the cash cows to finance Sansar?

you need to buy a vr headset and the body suit that has the attachments for (censored) in sansar

Edited by Quinn Lysette
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4 minutes ago, Quinn Lysette said:

you need to buy a vr headset and the body suit that has the attachments for (censored) in sansar

If I'm following that statement correctly, you will never see it in Sansar. VRChat, "maybe".

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

oh you mean you've experienced VR....or do you mean you just researched...?

???

I used to joke that I never experimented with hallucinogens, I did research.  So as Jimmy Hendricks would say, I am experienced.

I have been pushing at work to get more involved with VR/AR for our drafting teams; specifically plant and processing CAD designs  While I can champion the project, I don't have the budget or control start it myself.  I am in IT under a production office.  However, exploration and exploitation has more discretionary spending.  We are now using AR in our 4D seismic viewing rooms at the main campus.  I have yet to actually see one of these rooms. :(

So far my only real hands on VR experience has been with Gear (I think Samung's?) and FPS games.  But I still want to see AutoDesk's VR AutoCAD in our production environment sooner, rather than later.

ANYWAY .....
The bit you quoted was about Sansar.  Sansar seems isolated and limited to me especially when compared to SL.  So if there are some developments in the works that will change that (blow SL out of the water to be exact) I would like to see how they work when they are done.  If you are just talking abut VR, well hell; Call of Duty blows SL out of the water.  But I can't SL in CoD so why compare them?

Likewise, if I can't SL in Sansar, what difference does it make?  I might play in both if it seems like fun just like I play in CoD as well as SL.  But if Sansar cannot preform the same fundamentals as SL I don't see how it can blow SL out of the water?

Thus my confusion.
 

Again I really really truly cross my heart and double swear that I want Sansar to succeed.  If it can do that AND blow SL out of the water I absolutely want to see that.

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43 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Sansar seems isolated and limited to me especially when compared to SL.  So if there are some developments in the works that will change that (blow SL out of the water to be exact) I would like to see how they work when they are done.

Ahhh...I think my initial sentence before I went into this next paragraph caused the confusion...the following is why I think various new worlds (not necessarily Sansar) will eventually blow SL out of the water:

"Whether we like it or not (and I do like certain unique aspects of SL) there are new worlds developing that are going to blow SL out of the water. Those newer places are going to be where many want to go -- in search of the new 'shiny'. Just as those in There and Active Worlds went to Second Life when it was the new 'shiny', so they will flock to the newer worlds beyond SL".
What I'm referring to is all these new VR Chatrooms, more of them developing spaces to decorate and interact in as the months go buy, and even a VR world in development (with a contiguous continent), that I think will eventually cause some to experience SL as substandard.  Especially with the resources of Facebook and Microsoft and their increasing development of VR.
This is a lot of competition, and is why I speculate LL chose a niche market instead -- a Wordpress for VR.

If more people played in VR (both VR games & VR chatrooms) I think they'd see the amazing possibilities that could be added to a SL type experience.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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