Should commercial ventures and estates in SL be allowed to discriminate?

[Aethelwine]

6 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Its Germany

What nonsense.

All the memorials are there to remember what happened and to stimulate debate. Debate that is, which is something very different to disrespecting the dead with ridiculous conspiracy theories.

[Nalytha]

1 minute ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

 I said in at least one country. 

If you like  I can research and provide a list of countries where it's illegal to discuss the holocaust

You said no one can ever ever talk about it. 

[Nalytha]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The holocaust is the one historical event no one is ever supposed to discuss, never ever ever.

 

1 hour ago, Nalytha said:

According to you? Most people have no problem discussing it. 

 

25 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Well, in at least one country I know of, discussing the Holocaust will get you arrested and thrown in jail.

 

15 minutes ago, Nalytha said:

How did “no one ever” turn into one country?

 

7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

 I said in at least one country. 

If you like  I can research and provide a list of countries where it's illegal to discuss the holocaust

 

Sure. I’d love to see the least that makes ‘no one ever’ sound even remotely true.

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Who is talking about religion? He believed gay marriage was wrong and refused to have any part of it by baking a cake.

 

 

As Innula pointed out he did, that was the basis of the argument he made in court.

If it wasn't and his argument certainly doesn't stand up to any scrutiny for the reasons already given, then his reasons are just his own hurtful prejudice, and that gives him no justification and no case at all

Edited January 4, 2018 by Aethelwine

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Who is talking about religion? He believed gay marriage was wrong and refused to have any part of it by baking a cake.

 

 

Didn’t want to make a cake for gay wedding..because it was against his religion. If he didn’t use that excuse, he would have lost all the court cases rather quickly.

[Madelaine McMasters]

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Religions are just a way of perceiving reality.

Atheism has it's own way of perceiving reality, and so I consider it a religion too.

It's pretty insulting to think your religion is 'the way' while other people's perceptions of reality are delusional.

I don't see religion as a way of perceiving reality, but more as a way of making sense of the apparent nonsense. Maybe I tolerate nonsense better than others. I don't see how atheism can be a religion as it is the absence of belief and that absence is (so far as I've experienced) different for each of us. The other atheists I know disagree with me on many "spiritual" matters, finding me entirely too pragmatic.

If there is a way for perceiving reality, it's science. I can think I perceive reality, but then someone brings me evidence I'm wrong. I try to adjust my perception (or at least question it) and move on, only to be proven wrong again. So it goes. I (we) might be converging on some ultimate truth, but I'm not counting on it. We might not be smart enough or we might never have enough information to figure it out. I don't worry about it.

Feeling is not knowing. Although can feel connected in some mysterious way, that may well be the result of subconscious processes that I'm becoming increasingly familiar with over time, often to great amusement. It's also probably due to having typical human life experiences sufficiently parallel to those of others that a lot of things can be left unsaid, but understood. Mystery does not suggest the supernatural to me, it's simply an expression of my ignorance, and a good reason to get up in the morning.

I get no comfort or motivation from thinking there's an afterlife, a benevolent personal overseer, or a purpose for my existence. I'm simply happy to be here, and hope to leave less of a mess than I found, thanks to Mom's insistence that I clean up after myself. As an engineer, I'm interested in the practical application of my knowledge to make things, make better things, and make things better. Hopefully there's morality and ethics in what I do, as I see in many of you who do not share my atheism. My morality does not come from religion, it comes from my folks (and other things, of course). I suspect it's the same for many of you.

[Love Zhaoying]

30 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

40 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Its Germany

What nonsense.

All the memorials are there to remember what happened and to stimulate debate. Debate that is, which is something very different to disrespecting the dead with ridiculous conspiracy theories.

It’s illegal to discuss it if you’re going to deny it!!! Lol 

[Madelaine McMasters]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

An atheist used to attend my LGBT church. Apparently, he liked the preacher’s message. He even went up for communion- whatever the preacher said to him in those moments was strictly between them.

The pastor of the church at which our local community theater performed plays is an excellent dinner conversationalist. I don't participate in his religion's rituals, but I've enjoyed watching him deliver sermons from our sets, sometimes in costume (to the consternation of stodgy parishioners), and toss money in the collection plate. Dad converted from Lutheranism to Catholicism to get Mom, and Mom now attends the local Unitarian Church because they have great pot luck dinners. I move easily between all those environments while not adopting any of their religious beliefs.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Nalytha]

I have an Atheist friend who is married to a Buddhist. Their child goes to a Christian school. 

They have some interesting conversations <3 When the kid comes home and asks questions, they try to be as objective as possible and let her make her own conclusions. In the end, she tends to pick and choose the good parts from all. 

[Innula Zenovka]

36 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

If you like  I can research and provide a list of countries where it's illegal to discuss the holocaust

Please do.   I'm aware of several countries where it's illegal to deny the holocaust ever took place but I've never heard of anywhere that the holocaust can't be discussed.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Oh my, when did I ever say that? Oh wait  I forgot, The holocaust is the one historical event no one is ever supposed to discuss, never ever ever.

Your attitude continues to weaken your case, BilliJo. You've made some valid points, but you're working against yourself here.

From Innula's post of the German statute:

"Whosoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of International Criminal Law, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine"

That's a proscription against approval, denial or downplay of the Holocaust that upsets the public peace. That leaves a tremendous amount of room for discussion. If you can't see that and the hyperbole in your statements, you'd be better off recusing yourself from the discussion.

I like good debate, particularly if it changes my mind. You've made some interesting points (ex: the magnitude of difference in the injustice of murdering gays elsewhere vs not baking cakes for them here), but you're losing ground with me.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Aethelwine]

Maddy,

as Dr. Kaku points out in this little snippet Maths preceded science on differential topology and higher dimensions the basis for string theory. Maths and Science work together and separately towards a greater understanding. The words Dr Kaku uses to express those conceptions are however those of spirituality and of religion, of poetry. There is a balance between the three strands of thinking that we need in order to understand and put in to words in order to communicate what our deepest understandings of reality are.

"The mind of God is cosmic music, the music of strings resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace."

http://bigthink.com/dr-kakus-universe/math-is-the-mind-of-god

[Madelaine McMasters]

19 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Maddy,

as Dr. Kaku points out in this little snippet Maths preceded science on differential topology and higher dimensions the basis for string theory. Maths and Science work together and separately towards a greater understanding. The words Dr Kaku uses to express those conceptions are however those of spirituality and of religion, of poetry. There is a balance between the three strands of thinking that we need in order to understand and put in to words in order to communicate what our deepest understandings of reality are.

"The mind of God is cosmic music, the music of strings resonating through 11 dimensional hyperspace."

http://bigthink.com/dr-kakus-universe/math-is-the-mind-of-god

I have far less issue with the sort of god imagined by Spinoza or Kaku, but it seems an unnecessary leap for me to name it God, unless that's to attract a wider audience who might ascribe something more than they do to the idea of a creator. I don't mind bringing spirituality and poetry into the discussion, they're useful and pleasant tools to help mutual understanding, rooted like music in our collective history. I hope people haven't found me cold and calculating over my years here. I quite enjoy the idea of "god as cosmic music", but that's a hell of a long way from "God says homosexuality is evil and we should punish it." That's the kind of god and religion that seems to me made up to justify self serving behavior.

I have no explanation for all there is, the world is a wonderful and mysterious place for me. But I've never felt a desire to think it was created for any particular purpose or has any particular meaning. I don't know what purpose you pursue or what meaning that pursuit has for you, but I hope you're grateful for the opportunity to experience life, happy as a result, and able to spread a little of that to others.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Aethelwine]

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I have far less issue with the sort of god imagined by Spinoza or Kaku, but it seems an unnecessary leap for me to name it God, unless that's to attract a wider audience who might ascribe something more than they do to the idea of a creator. I don't mind bringing spirituality and poetry into the discussion, they're useful and pleasant tools to help mutual understanding, based as they, like music, in our collective history. I hope people haven't found me cold and calculating over my years here. I quite enjoy the idea of "god as cosmic music", but that's a hell of a long way from "God says homosexuality is evil and we should punish it." That's the kind of god and religion that seems to me made up to justify self serving behavior.

I have no explanation for all there is, the world is a wonderful and mysterious place for me. But I've never felt a desire to think it was created for any particular purpose or has any particular meaning. I don't know what purpose you pursue or what meaning that pursuit has for you, but I hope you're grateful for the opportunity to experience life, happy as a result, and able to spread a little of that to others.

Indeed, much is said in God's name that is frightful and bares little reflection to the core texts.

But a pure logical positivist approach to knowledge ends up without values, nothing to guide us in how to live our lives and how to derive meanings or even understand our emotional responses to things. There is nothing to guide us from looking at what is, to what we ought to do. It fails because it fails us and doesn't give us a language to explain or understand our reality.

Religion and Spirituality is our existential condition.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Please do.   I'm aware of several countries where it's illegal to deny the holocaust ever took place but I've never heard of anywhere that the holocaust can't be discussed.

There are a thousand tales out of the holocaust. To question even one is considered the same as denying the whole thing.

Ask a question about some of the more outlandish claims, you are a denier. You are expected to accept the whole story without exception.

There have been Holocaust memoirs written that have been proven to be outright frauds from start to finish, proven to be frauds by  serious scholars.

But say, "oh that's absurd" about anything Holocaust related  will brings the full weight of condemnation down on ones head, because as  I said, questioning any part of the holocaust is forbidden.

*waiting for the condemnation which will prove my original contention is right*

 

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by BilliJo Aldrin
corrected grammar

[Nalytha]

I think Billi has set a record for possibly offending the most people in one thread: liberals, gays, minorities, jews... did I miss anyone? This thread is long. 

[Pamela Galli]

42 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I quite enjoy the idea of "god as cosmic music", but that's a hell of a long way from "God says homosexuality is evil and we should punish it." That's the kind of god and religion that seems to me made up to justify self serving behavior.

 The Bible was not just a book but a library of different types of writing. In ancient societies and until not that long ago Social Security was comprised of one’s children. If you did not have children it threatened the entire community. Children meant survival, and someone to care for aged relatives. Without children, that burden fell on the community, or meant a one way trip on an ice floe. Anything that threatened to reduce the number of children in the community was therefore forbidden. So certain behaviors were outlawed that today pose no threat to anyone. This is not spiritual advice so much as recommendations for survival. Those are two different types of literature, and written for an ancient culture, not our own. 

Re the mind of God. I agree that the mind of God is math, music, etc. Essentially it is: information. God is described in Genesis as speaking the universe into existence, a kind of cosmic DNA. The Gospel of John begins: 

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

(The original Greek word for Word is Logos, which means something like a principle of reason.)

Edited January 4, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Madelaine McMasters]

5 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Indeed, much is said in God's name that is frightful and bares little reflection to the core texts.

But a pure logical positivist approach to knowledge ends up without values, nothing to guide us in how to live our lives and how to derive meanings or even understand our emotional responses to things. There is nothing to guide us from looking at what is, to what we ought to do. It fails because it fails us and doesn't give us a language to explain or understand our reality.

Religion and Spirituality is our existential condition.

At the point we climbed down out of the trees, we had no religion, we probably had no spirituality. How'd we get this far?

How about mirror neurons, which might explain altruism in other animals?

So, the next time I'm kind to you, say "Thank Mirror Neurons, Maddy didn't set me on fire!" "Thank God" would be a step too far for me.

And just because I'm me...

...sets you on fire.

;-).

[Aethelwine]

20 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are a thousand tales out of the holocaust. To question even one is considered the same as denying the whole thing.

Ask a question about some of the more outlandish claims, you are a denier. You are expected to accept the whole story without exception.

There have been Holocaust memoirs written that have been proven to be outright frauds from start to finish, proven to be frauds by  serious scholars.

But if you say, "oh that's absurd" about anything Holocaust related  will brings the full weight of condemnation down on ones head, because as  I said, questioning any part of the holocaust is forbidden.

*waiting for the condemnation which will prove my original contention is right*

 

 

If that was true there would be no scholarly research on the subject.

But there is, and lots of it take a look for example at the wikipedia entry on Auschwitz death toll. The determination of deaths there alone has been of scholarly debate all along because Russia exaggerated all their figures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

A million people can be accounted for through records, about 1 in 6 of the Jews killed in the holocaust.

You are so far wrong you really need to chose a different source for information on the topic as you are embarrassingly ill informed.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Aethelwine

[Innula Zenovka]

37 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are a thousand tales out of the holocaust. To question even one is considered the same as denying the whole thing.

Ask a question about some of the more outlandish claims, you are a denier. You are expected to accept the whole story without exception.

There have been Holocaust memoirs written that have been proven to be outright frauds from start to finish, proven to be frauds by  serious scholars

And have any of these led to a successful prosecution for holocaust denial in Germany or anywhere else?  If so,  could you provide the details so I can look them up, please?

Edited January 4, 2018 by Innula Zenovka

[Innula Zenovka]

13 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

If that was true there would be no scholarly research on the subject.

But there is, and lots of it take a look for example at the wikipedia entry on Auschwitz death toll. The determination of deaths there alone has been of scholarly debate all along because Russia exaggerated all their figures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

A million people can be accounted for through records, about 1 in 6 of the Jews killed in the holocaust.

You are so far wrong you really need to chose a different source for information on the topic as you are embarrassingly ill informed.

There's also the problem that people tend to confuse and conflate, sometimes maliciously, figures relating to Jews murdered at Auschwitz in the gas chambers,  Jews who died  in all concentration camps, whether in gas chambers, from disease, malnutrition, and overwork, and all Jews murdered by the Nazis, including those (the majority, as I understand it) murdered by the Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units) and the regular German Army in territories in Central and Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union,  under German occupation.   

[Aethelwine]

31 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

And have any of these lead to a successful prosecution for holocaust denial in Germany or anywhere else?  If so,  could you provide the details so I can look them up, please?

The Hitler Diaries, the most famous one... it was the author that was imprisoned for fraud not the person that exposed it.

The opposite of the point BilliJo was trying to make.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Aethelwine

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Nalytha said:

I think Billi has set a record for possibly offending the most people in one thread: liberals, gays, minorities, jews... did I miss anyone? This thread is long. 

People who believe in arguing from facts?

[Innula Zenovka]

4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

People who believe in arguing from facts?

As opposed to alternative facts.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

I would love to debate the Holocaust in here, but the stakes are far too high for me.

Consider this my last word on that topic.