Should commercial ventures and estates in SL be allowed to discriminate?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Suppose someone opened a restaurant, and posted a sign that said... "no blacks allowed".

Someone else opens a restaurant next door that says "everyone welcome"

If everything else was the same, (quality of service, price, etc) which restaurant will thrive and which one will fail?

Edited December 31, 2017 by BilliJo Aldrin
changed close to fail

[lostsoul2017]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Suppose someone opened a restaurant, and posted a sign that said... "no blacks allowed".

Someone else opens a restaurant next door that says "everyone welcome"

If everything else was the same, (quality of service, price, etc) which restaurant will thrive and which one will close?

fairly sure that if you went to the 'wrong' restaurant your family/community/coworkers/etc would have someone to say. we live in a social society.  no one wants to be outcast for 'doing what they feel is right'.  which is why people usually work with the government to chance these things.  think back to 1940.  how many blacks would have had the money to setup a private airline?  so if an airline put up the words "whites only".  does that mean only white people would be able to take airplanes to travel? someone who is black COULD setup an airline.  what is the chances of that person being able to secure the financing/approvals in, say Montana. it is much easier to say that the market will correct itself than to have it in real life.  there are still places that do not welcome people of color, even if the government has said they must allow them in.  just because you allow someone in, doesn't mean you are nice or welcoming in any way.

 

but anyway, i'll stop commenting now so it's not a BillieJo and Lost thread LOL. others may want to comment on things.

take care BillieJo, and happy new year.

[Alwin Alcott]

24 minutes ago, lostsoul2017 said:

 

*hands Alwin a stab proof vest*  "we may not agree on a lot but ...if you need a place to hide for a couple of days, i can setup a safe house someone in a less traveled area of the SL world for you". 

i heared the crowds with forks ... abandoned my home and bought a new nice plot, ( under cover of course by a alt)

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, lostsoul2017 said:

fairly sure that if you went to the 'wrong' restaurant your family/community/coworkers/etc would have someone to say. we live in a social society.  no one wants to be outcast for 'doing what they feel is right'.  which is why people usually work with the government to chance these things.  think back to 1940.  how many blacks would have had the money to setup a private airline?  so if an airline put up the words "whites only".  does that mean only white people would be able to take airplanes to travel? someone who is black COULD setup an airline.  what is the chances of that person being able to secure the financing/approvals in, say Montana. it is much easier to say that the market will correct itself than to have it in real life.  there are still places that do not welcome people of color, even if the government has said they must allow them in.  just because you allow someone in, doesn't mean you are nice or welcoming in any way.

 

but anyway, i'll stop commenting now so it's not a BillieJo and Lost thread LOL. others may want to comment on things.

take care BillieJo, and happy new year.

ahh yes, the government will legislate every social interaction to ensure "fairness". I feel so much better now.

[Luna Bliss]

12 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Suppose someone opened a restaurant, and posted a sign that said... "no blacks allowed".

Someone else opens a restaurant next door that says "everyone welcome"

If everything else was the same, (quality of service, price, etc) which restaurant will thrive and which one will fail?

Thanks to "government interference", prejudice against people of color is less accepted now and so a prejudiced restaurant in most parts of the country would not do as well financially.
Studying History, I see that generally people do not generally give up a power without pressure/force/rules.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Thanks to "government interference", prejudice against people of color is less accepted now and so a prejudiced restaurant in most parts of the country would not do as well financially.
Studying History, I see that generally people do not generally give up a power without pressure/force/rules.

What power? The power to decide who your customers are going to be?

 

[Luna Bliss]

16 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I'm talking about private business. Government services should be equally available to everything.

Government services are being privatized at an alarming rate, so where can the line be drawn so that vital services are not denied to minorities or those less accepted by the majority?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Government services are being privatized at an alarming rate, so where can the line be drawn so that vital services are not denied to minorities or those less accepted by the majority?

I'm not talking about vital services here, I'm talking about a retail store.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Ok obviously race is a sensitive topic, lets change it to smoking.

Should  I be able to open a restaurant and hang out a sign that says smoking allowed anywhere on the premesis?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Or this one.

Suppose  I run a Las Vegas wedding chapel, should I be able to put up a sign that says "marriage is between a man and a woman only, so we don't do gay marriages"

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Thanks to "government interference", prejudice against people of color is less accepted now and so a prejudiced restaurant in most parts of the country would not do as well financially.
Studying History, I see that generally people do not generally give up a power without pressure/force/rules.

What power? The power to decide who your customers are going to be?

Any time we contribute to society we have a certain amount of power within our particular role. Take for example, a hospital (many if not most are privatized by now). Now if there are many hospitals within a town the hospital doesn't have as much power over us if we need their services, as we can usually go to one of the other available hospitals. But what if you live where there's only one hospital within miles -- that hospital has a lot of power. What if they decided not to allow you to visit your dying partner/child/whoever because you're a Sufi, or black, or gay? (has already happened to many gay spouses who have been banned from visiting a sick partner because they aren't considered 'family').

Or, another example, what if you live in Podunk, USA and there's only one grocery store there, and you have no car to drive X miles to another town for food. And the owner of the grocery store doesn't like blacks, poor people, Muslims, or whatever you happen to be?
Or maybe you need clothes and the only clothes store in town won't serve you.
The list could go on and on.

[Luna Bliss]

13 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Government services are being privatized at an alarming rate, so where can the line be drawn so that vital services are not denied to minorities or those less accepted by the majority?

I'm not talking about vital services here, I'm talking about a retail store.

Repeat:

Any time we contribute to society we have a certain amount of power within our particular role. Take for example, a hospital (many if not most are privatized by now). Now if there are many hospitals within a town the hospital doesn't have as much power over us if we need their services, as we can usually go to one of the other available hospitals. But what if you live where there's only one hospital within miles -- that hospital has a lot of power. What if they decided not to allow you to visit your dying partner/child/whoever because you're a Sufi, or black, or gay? (has already happened to many gay spouses who have been banned from visiting a sick partner because they aren't considered 'family').

Or, another example, what if you live in Podunk, USA and there's only one grocery store there, and you have no car to drive X miles to another town for food. And the owner of the grocery store doesn't like blacks, poor people, Muslims, or whatever you happen to be?
Or maybe you need clothes and the only clothes store in town won't serve you.
The list could go on and on.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Luna Bliss

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Any time we contribute to society we have a certain amount of power within our particular role. Take for example, a hospital (many if not most are privatized by now). Now if there are many hospitals within a town the hospital doesn't have as much power over us if we need their services, as we can usually go to one of the other available hospitals. But what if you live where there's only one hospital within miles -- that hospital has a lot of power. What if they decided not to allow you to visit your dying partner/child/whoever because you're a Sufi, or black, or gay? (has already happened to many gay spouses who have been banned from visiting a sick partner because they aren't considered 'family').

Or, another example, what if you live in Podunk, USA and there's only one grocery store there, and you have no car to drive X miles to another town for food. And the owner of the grocery store doesn't like blacks, poor people, Muslims, or whatever you happen to be?
Or maybe you need clothes and the only clothes store in town won't serve you.
The list could go on and on.

Posting extreme examples doesn't help your argument

[Nalytha]

Just now, BilliJo Aldrin said:

There are whole neighborhoods in Charlotte NC that are white only or black only. Its not segregation, its freedom of association.

 

Sorry, I disagree. "White Flight" is a real term here to describe the movement of whiter, more well off folks who moved just out of the city across the lake, leaving the poor minorities to rot in a city that constantly works against them. School choice sounds awesome on paper, until you realize that the poor minority students don't have the luxury of choosing to escape the crappy public school system. When you stack the deck against these folks from the time they are in preschool, it's no wonder it's hard for them to escape. Deprive them of adequate education, healthcare, and fair treatment in the justice system and we wonder why they do not flourish. Before someone jumps in with the cliche "Rise up by your bootstraps" trope, that's not my point. We say we live in a time of equality, but inequality is everywhere I look. It's not fair, and I don't have the answers. All I know how to do is acknowledge the issue is very real.  
 

[Paul Hexem]

A business should be able to turn anyone away for any reason at all, RL and SL.

They then have to deal with the consequences, the lost traffic, lost profits, bad reputation, and so on.

Despite common misconception, businesses are private property, not public. This applies double in SL.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Nalytha said:

Sorry, I disagree. "White Flight" is a real term here to describe the movement of whiter, more well off folks who moved just out of the city across the lake, leaving the poor minorities to rot in a city that constantly works against them. School choice sounds awesome on paper, until you realize that the poor minority students don't have the luxury of choosing to escape the crappy public school system. When you stack the deck against these folks from the time they are in preschool, it's no wonder it's hard for them to escape. Deprive them of adequate education, healthcare, and fair treatment in the justice system and we wonder why they do not flourish. Before someone jumps in with the cliche "Rise up by your bootstraps" trope, that's not my point. We say we live in a time of equality, but inequality is everywhere I look. It's not fair, and I don't have the answers. All I know how to do is acknowledge the issue is very real.  
 

So you will force whites to stay where they are?

And for the record, the majority of black people in this country are middle class or higher.

This country is a land of boundless opportunity for anyone wiling to try and better themselves.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

A business should be able to turn anyone away for any reason at all, RL and SL.

They then have to deal with the consequences, the lost traffic, lost profits, bad reputation, and so on.

Despite common misconception, businesses are private property, not public. This applies double in SL.

Exactly Gadget. I've worked in retail, and there's only one color in retail, its GREEN

[Nalytha]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

So you will force whites to stay where they are?

And for the record, the majority of black people in this country are middle class or higher.

This country is a land of boundless opportunity for anyone wiling to try and better themselves.

 

I told you my experience with MY city. No... I said I didn't have the answers and all I can do is acknowledge the situation is real. I never said anything about forcing anyone to do anything. If we are talking about my proposals for possible solutions -- I believe it starts with fixing my corrupt city/state/and federal government who doesn't have said poor minority issues as a priority. Fix the public schools they are forced to go to. Give them adequate education, healthcare, and equal justice. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Nalytha

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Posting extreme examples doesn't help your argument

It's only extreme if you live in a city with many choices.

I can't remember the percentage, but a significant number of people live outside big cities and have limited services/retail choices.

And history is replete with examples of prejudice against all types of marginalized people that simply would not change until we forced government to do something about it.

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

And for the record, the majority of black people in this country are middle class or higher.

Fact check needed.

[Paul Hexem]

There's another thing not being considered here, too.

There's a case to be made for anti-discrimination, but there's also consequences as a result of it.

I can tell you, as someone that's worked for a security contractor for years, one of the biggest things we have to deal with is people that refuse to leave after being asked to, no matter what the reason. If I had a dime for every time I heard "I'm [insert minority/disability/class here], you can't throw me out or it's discrimination!", I could have retired twice over.

It's not just a disturbance to the business, an additional cost of hiring people like me, the big arguments also make other customers uncomfortable, it even becomes a drain on society when the local police have to become involved. Often. At taxpayer expense.

If we bring the same attitude into SL, it's going to increase customer support issues having to be dealt with, which is likely to make LL raise prices.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Gadget Portal

[Nalytha]

18 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

And for the record, the majority of black people in this country are middle class or higher.

This country is a land of boundless opportunity for anyone wiling to try and better themselves.

 

Ah, the old "It's their own fault" argument. The Constitution should be taken literally when it comes to guns, but not literally when it says "All men are created equal." Now, of course we understand it truly didn't mean ALL at its inception, but a majority of Americans like to think we take it literal now. Except we don't.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, lostsoul2017 said:

 but business owners should be aware that they can actually be sued in California courts for discrimination and could cost them tens of thousands of real life dollars to fight it.

The suit would be thrown out - the discrimination is against an avatar, not against the real person.

 

1 hour ago, lostsoul2017 said:

some people justify it by saying it's just a character, others may realize there is an actual human being that you are discriminating against behind the screen.

The disrimination is still against the character being played, not against the real person.  If someone in SL discriminates against Furries, how could that possibly relate back to discriminating against the RL person behind the screen.

 

There really is a difference between SL and RL, regardless of how many of us choose to sometimes blur the line.

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Gadget Portal said:

There's a case to be made for anti-discrimination, but there's also consequences as a result of it.

I can tell you, as someone that's worked for a security contractor for years, one of the biggest things we have to deal with is people that refuse to leave after being asked to, no matter what the reason. If I had a dime for every time I heard "I'm [insert minority/disability/class here], you can't throw me out or it's discrimination!", I could have retired twice over.

It's not just a disturbance to the business, an additional cost of hiring people like me, the big arguments also make other customers uncomfortable, it even becomes a drain on society when the local police have to become involved. Often. At taxpayer expense.

Yes, there's always going to be a few who abuse their newly discovered power. But I'd venture to say there are far, far more in a protected class who are genuinely discriminated against even now. And so it's ridiculous to bring up the example you have really. What's next...the welfare queen story?

[Ceka Cianci]

This sounds like a job for,The Pirate Popcorn maker..Because it's looking like it's bout to get really real up in har! \o/