Should commercial ventures and estates in SL be allowed to discriminate?

[Hunter Stern]

I have done some searching (after running into yet another random sim as advertising itself to only allow one gender). The reason I bring this up is because after reviewing the CS and Tos and Linden Policy links, NOTHING is truly covered other than adhering to state and federal statues where they may apply to that region , also the fact that Linden Lab Inc. is still bound by state and federal law under jurisdiction of the State of California.

Now those technicalities out of the way, let me give you a picture  of what I feel I have encountered (and not just recently) but over a span of a decade in Second Life.

There are various sims as we all know that are advertised as Female AV only, and Male AV only, or Human only or Furry only , etc. the 'Only' part being important here. If I were to open a sim or business in SL with the intent of making returnable revenue through cash out and I advertised my establishment as whites only , do you seriously think I would or should be allowed IF and I say, IF my business is recognized as a public venture with within full scope of search and advertising , not limited to but also the Second Life Marketplace page?

I went to a sim tonight that was advertised as female only and it states clearly it is for women only as a mall, and upon further inspection yes , they have advertised services for apparel to name just one of those content services offered, (I suppose they have never heard of a guy window shopping for a gift idea or even for himself ).

So as it stands now , discrimination at public (technically all businesses on search are deemed public) is allowed.

Is this something Second Life should uphold or is there some correction that should be made? I do realize that ones private residence is not subject to the same rules as commercial ventures (especially if they also are not advertised in search)?

Do we as residents truly have the right to exclusivity , when we already agreed to a Tos and CS which are in conflict with such exclusivity on the basis of 'Intolerance' ?

Personally for me, if I go to someones private home and they ask that I be a specific gender to enter, that is their prerogative as per privacy and personal space in SL, and I can choose to simply not go. But if it is an adverised location and business, I do feel that those business's should be subject to a higher standard like many things that real law and statues effect.

Maybe I'm wrong in my feelings on this (I'm not one as of late for Social Justice agenda's personally) but I don't (or haven't seen) the topic brought to a better light or focus , since we do discuss various policies and norms in SL and how it effects our day to day in SL as active residents.

[Alwin Alcott]

i'm perfectly OK with restricted access and don't see it as discrimination. It's creating a space where you can be who you want, and how you want, without the curious nosy eyes of others that see it as rarity, or worse, griefers and harrassers.

In rl it's also perfectly normal and not against laws to have a restricted access to several venues.

Problem is, i think, more we think we can do what we want , when we want, and where we want... and tháts against law

 

[Hunter Stern]

yes I agree on this general standing as long as it is space that is private. But I'm talking commercial , you know that crap element that got us the lovely tax filing requirement for cashouts not too long ago if I recall. and actually it IS against the law to have restricted access which impeded equal access under the law for most venues, you cannot generalize those statutes. If a woman wants to go into a 'male only' strip club,  said woman can.  there  are several cases with organizations in which they had to rescind discriminatory policies or forgo their non-profit status to name a few penalties as well as businesses that lost licensing until they were up to standard on law.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Hunter Stern

[Ceka Cianci]

The thing is ,they are not disallowing certain people..just certain avatars..

In sl you can adjust to enter places like that..The real world you can't..

I think that is where the difference comes in.. We're all pretty much just wearing a costume and some places require certain attire..

 

 

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, Hunter Stern said:

There are various sims as we all know that are advertised as Female AV only

 

2 hours ago, Hunter Stern said:

I suppose they have never heard of a guy window shopping for a gift idea

*roles eyes*

...

"So like, I was in town right? Looking to pick up some hot chicks, and I saw this Lezza Bar full of hot women, so I try to go in and chat some of them up, but this FUGLY diesel gorilla on the door stopped me and said the place was chicks only.

So like, I told the man hating bish that maybe I wanted to by a drink for some hot Lezzas, and she said that the kind of women they had there DIDN'T WANT drinks from guys!

It's SOOOOOO unfair, we should stop this kind of blatant discrimination..."

...

End this discrimination?

Let's not, and say that we did...
 

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Hunter Stern said:

 If a woman wants to go into a 'male only' strip club,  said woman can.

nope... she can not just go in.

I think before this discussion can proceed we have to define "public" ... and not confuse it with "open access" .

A public venue can have a restricted access and so prevent certain people enter.

[Hunter Stern]

ok good we have that clear, now what about products, say like clothing and household good etc? (and yes still adult venues still all all genders rl entry , i have hung out at lezz bars with nary a problem and no im not there to hit up on them ofcourse , if one is harassing patrons regardless one gets booted). So should I as a guy or in a guy avatar be restricted from a commercial clothing store for women but soley on the basis that ONLY women can enter the store or sim , when it is advertised and within certain guidelines which cover things regarding content ratings , but not accessiblity, which could be addressed if it is the sole intent of the party to simply do business, and what if they have no marketplace presence, then what? Same for furniture, gadgets , etc.

oh and Klytyna, the sim I refer to is apparently not some lezz sim resort, it's a mall as  advertised. I would agree , but I can't agree because I don't even agree with the 'gay mens' sims that practice these same policies with they are advertised as a mall or store area , infact most of them do allow women to enter those areas atleast for shopping purposes and then, some don't.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Hunter Stern

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 hours ago, Hunter Stern said:

I have done some searching (after running into yet another random sim as advertising itself to only allow one gender). The reason I bring this up is because after reviewing the CS and Tos and Linden Policy links, NOTHING is truly covered other than adhering to state and federal statues where they may apply to that region , also the fact that Linden Lab Inc. is still bound by state and federal law under jurisdiction of the State of California.

Now those technicalities out of the way, let me give you a picture  of what I feel I have encountered (and not just recently) but over a span of a decade in Second Life.

There are various sims as we all know that are advertised as Female AV only, and Male AV only, or Human only or Furry only , etc. the 'Only' part being important here. If I were to open a sim or business in SL with the intent of making returnable revenue through cash out and I advertised my establishment as whites only , do you seriously think I would or should be allowed IF and I say, IF my business is recognized as a public venture with within full scope of search and advertising , not limited to but also the Second Life Marketplace page?

I went to a sim tonight that was advertised as female only and it states clearly it is for women only as a mall, and upon further inspection yes , they have advertised services for apparel to name just one of those content services offered, (I suppose they have never heard of a guy window shopping for a gift idea or even for himself ).

So as it stands now , discrimination at public (technically all businesses on search are deemed public) is allowed.

Is this something Second Life should uphold or is there some correction that should be made? I do realize that ones private residence is not subject to the same rules as commercial ventures (especially if they also are not advertised in search)?

Do we as residents truly have the right to exclusivity , when we already agreed to a Tos and CS which are in conflict with such exclusivity on the basis of 'Intolerance' ?

Personally for me, if I go to someones private home and they ask that I be a specific gender to enter, that is their prerogative as per privacy and personal space in SL, and I can choose to simply not go. But if it is an adverised location and business, I do feel that those business's should be subject to a higher standard like many things that real law and statues effect.

Maybe I'm wrong in my feelings on this (I'm not one as of late for Social Justice agenda's personally) but I don't (or haven't seen) the topic brought to a better light or focus , since we do discuss various policies and norms in SL and how it effects our day to day in SL as active residents.

yes one should be able to totally discriminate based on any criterion they choose in deciding who they will allow on their property as customers.

I'm gonna get royally roasted for saying this but I think business owners should have that same right in real life too.

[Hunter Stern]

11 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

A public venue can have a restricted access and so prevent certain people enter.

So then if it is public and and technically paying taxes (per filing as required). should it be allowed to still operate under that premise then? and what about gambling? how did the Gaming Commission get their hands on policy to enforce for online platforms such as SL, yet the American Civil Liberties Assoc. holds no water, because we suddenly make a quick and obscure re-definition asto what is public and what and who is allowed that definition? See , this is where LL really confuses me at times too. but ofcourse we'll never have a direct answer from them on the matter (other than some haphazard policy change or band-aid fix much like the laughable age verification process).

[Ceka Cianci]

LL stopped gambling in SL on their own..Nobody made them stop it..

 

ETA: Let me try that again.. From what I recall,LL stopped gambling in SL on their own..

Because it was a long time ago and My memory is not the greatest,so I could be mistaken..hehehe

Edited December 31, 2017 by Ceka Cianci

[Alwin Alcott]

20 minutes ago, Hunter Stern said:

 we'll never have a direct answer from them on the matter (other than some haphazard policy change or band-aid fix much like the laughable age verification process).

and i think that is very wise.

Many restricted areas would disappear when they would be forced to open for all.

For example... i would never put one foot again in S****rkz, Wh****ck G*C and more again if women were allowed.... And still it are, more or less, public places

 

[EDIT} i have NOTHING against women!!!!!.. don't take that line wrong please....lol

Edited December 31, 2017 by Alwin Alcott

[Nalytha]

I agree... it's like dress code enforcement, not so much discrimination. Because you can be anyone you want in Second Life. Should furries band together and make a lawsuit against everyone who hangs a 'no furries' sign on their door? 

[Klytyna]

45 minutes ago, Hunter Stern said:

yet the American Civil Liberties Assoc. holds no water

...

"...So, like, I told the fugly man hating bish on the door that the Moronican Association for Politically Correct Asshattery has ruled that macho dudes with swinging cods have a c*nstitutional right to walk into lessa places and feel up hot chicas, and that if she didn't let me in I'd write to my senator.

Then she said to me "Hi I'm Red Harvest, the Splatter here at Club Les" and I asked what a splatter was and she said "...it's like a Bouncer except I throw you a LOT harder...", and then it all went dark and when I woke up, I was in ER, with 2 broken legs, a broken arm, 5 cracked ribs, no teeth and a brick wall pattern embossed in reverse across the whole front of my face and body...

So, like, what about my c*nstitutional right to invade their space huh, something needs to be done about this, also, we need a law to stop 6 foot 4 inch, 275 pound  man hating lessa bishes who pump iron at the gym working on lessa club doors, they should be forced to hire short cute looking chicks who like man sausage!"

...

Those people should stick to stuff that ACTUALLY matters, like preventing black people being beaten senseless for trying to use a voting booth, south of the Mason Dixon line, or stopping Atheist Dropin Centers being petrol bombed by fundy jihadis in backwater redneck cheesus crispie towns, etc., rather than mucking about saying guys have a RIGHT to walk into women only places.

Understand, if some guy turns up at the bar with a regular, and she says "he's cool he's my brother" fair enough, the door staff can CHOOSE to let him in, but claiming that some gang of drunken machotards have a RIGHT to walk into a les bar, thats just SO wrong.
 

[Bree Giffen]

If I understand correctly, an SL business subject to RL tax laws can discriminate by avatar because discrimination by RL gender (race, religion, etc) is unenforceable. The SL game client and network do not contain any code to let residents verify RL gender.

An SL business could try voice verification to guarantee that they only have customers of a specific gender but how many residents would go through that inconvenience themselves just to avoid the possibility of harassment? Not many. A business could just broadcast a message telling customers to block and mute any  person harassing them or report harassers to management.. 

Is it possible for a business to have strict third party verification and make enough money to be taxed? I am not aware of any but it would be fun to see what happens to them. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The thing is ,they are not disallowing certain people..just certain avatars..

In sl you can adjust to enter places like that..The real world you can't..

I think that is where the difference comes in.. We're all pretty much just wearing a costume and some places require certain attire..

This ^^  It pretty much all comes down to this.

 

[Tari Landar]

I think the main problem is that you're applying rl logic and law as far as discrimination against protected classes/groups is concerned, to an online environment where it cannot be applied in the same manner.

LL gives landowners(and by trickle down theory, people those landowners rent to as well) the ability to permit, or not permit, anyone they so choose, using any(or no) reason they choose.  That pretty much ends the discussion on whether or not they can, right there.

If I didn't want people wearing all white on my sim, I could boot and ban them if I wanted, of course that would require my presence to do so, but I could. I can choose to have a sim that I generally leave open for public use(so to speak, such as a mall, for instance, or a club) but still ban certain avatars(men, women, furries, robots, aliens, children, short people, tall people...etc..) from entering, or boot them if they do enter. LL has told me that I can, they have given me this discretion, and no amount of arguing about or against that will change this.

Considering the vast amount of sims and parcels one can visit in sl, I hardly think it's worth worrying over not being allowed in a small, perhaps miniscule even,  portion of them. There's just too many options for it to really be a problem. There are loads of places I can't go in sl because of my av(or if I'm wearing one different from my usual, then that av, lol), and lots of them I never would anyway, but I'm perfectly ok with landowners/renters being able to say :hey, my sim, I don't want you here". No skin off my nose, and I don't even need them to give me a reason. Their land, their rules..LL said so

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

37 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

LL gives landowners(and by trickle down theory, people those landowners rent to as well) the ability to permit, or not permit, anyone they so choose, using any(or no) reason they choose.  That pretty much ends the discussion on whether or not they can, right there

After I finished decorating my first little house, I decided to try to make every piece of furniture in my house myself. When I finished, I thought Hmm If I set this stuff for sale my house would be a store. Ever since, my store has been the place I lived.

And that's why I do not consider my store "public". It is my private space to which I welcome most, but not all --- as in my RL home. No one has any right to enter but me. I don't owe anyone admittance. 

[Nalytha]

1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

After I finished decorating my first little house, I decided to try to make every piece of furniture in my house myself. When I finished, I thought Hmm If I set this stuff for sale my house would be a store. Ever since, my store has been the place I lived.

And thank you for opening your doors to us! I actually just moved somewhere and noticed my neighbor had one of your homes (as did I). We bonded over our shared fondness for your work. 

[lostsoul2017]

2 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

yes one should be able to totally discriminate based on any criterion they choose in deciding who they will allow on their property as customers.

I'm gonna get royally roasted for saying this but I think business owners should have that same right in real life too.

the reply below is not directed AT you billijo, but at people that like to discriminate:

 

absolutely they should be allowed to discriminate. i mean who wants blacks, Chineses, Woman or any other group they don't like on their property.  i'm with you.  all those women marching in the streets were silly for wanting the right to be treated equally were silly. same with those black people in the US wanting to sit anywhere on the bus or use the same restrooms.  seriously anyone should be allowed to discriminate based on anything they want to.  because we all know that human beings are fair and considerate creatures that will care about others.  *end sarcasm*   <- put here as some people MAY miss it.

 

businesses in SL that discriminate may be able to do it for a long time as people treat it like a 'game' or a 'sim'. but business owners should be aware that they can actually be sued in California courts for discrimination and could cost them tens of thousands of real life dollars to fight it. not sure why they would want to take the risk.  might be easier to just write, "we welcome everyone but most of our customers are "XXXX"".

 

if you are not sure if a business policy is wrong, try substitute the words "black only" or "white only"  and see if it still sounds right.  an easy way to figure things out.

 

as you may tell, i may have strong feelings about people discriminating.  your feelings may differ. you may be fine with people discriminating on others.  until you face it yourself.  I respect everyone's choice to care about only themselves but personal i prefer my world and my SL to be a bit more inclusive. 

 

[lostsoul2017]

2 hours ago, Nalytha said:

I agree... it's like dress code enforcement, not so much discrimination. Because you can be anyone you want in Second Life. Should furries band together and make a lawsuit against everyone who hangs a 'no furries' sign on their door? 

i think there should be a differentiation of what is legal and what is moral.

 

legally there are certain things you cannot discriminate on.  women, skin color, etc.  furries are not a protected group.

Morally  - what is legal may not be moral. for example , legally you may be able to discriminate against furries but would that be morally right. well , that would depend on your own morals.  some people justify it by saying it's just a character, others may realize there is an actual human being that you are discriminating against behind the screen.

 

good thing is that in SL, even if a group is discriminated against, there are always places they can go to where they are totally welcomed.  everyone can find a place where they are treated with respect and welcomed :).

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

3 minutes ago, lostsoul2017 said:

the reply below is not directed AT you billijo, but at people that like to discriminate:

 

absolutely they should be allowed to discriminate. i mean who wants blacks, Chineses, Woman or any other group they don't like on their property.  i'm with you.  all those women marching in the streets were silly for wanting the right to be treated equally were silly. same with those black people in the US wanting to sit anywhere on the bus or use the same restrooms.  seriously anyone should be allowed to discriminate based on anything they want to.  because we all know that human beings are fair and considerate creatures that will care about others.  *end sarcasm*   <- put here as some people MAY miss it.

 

businesses in SL that discriminate may be able to do it for a long time as people treat it like a 'game' or a 'sim'. but business owners should be aware that they can actually be sued in California courts for discrimination and could cost them tens of thousands of real life dollars to fight it. not sure why they would want to take the risk.  might be easier to just write, "we welcome everyone but most of our customers are "XXXX"".

 

if you are not sure if a business policy is wrong, try substitute the words "black only" or "white only"  and see if it still sounds right.  an easy way to figure things out.

 

as you may tell, i may have strong feelings about people discriminating.  your feelings may differ. you may be fine with people discriminating on others.  until you face it yourself.  I respect everyone's choice to care about only themselves but personal i prefer my world and my SL to be a bit more inclusive. 

 

So there's no misunderstanding, my statement included the situation of posting the words "Whites Only" or "Blacks Only" on a private business establishment, either in SL or RL.

The marketplace should decide if a business that restricts its customer base should thrive or fail.

 

 

[lostsoul2017]

2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

and i think that is very wise.

Many restricted areas would disappear when they would be forced to open for all.

For example... i would never put one foot again in S****rkz, Wh****ck G*C and more again if women were allowed.... And still it are, more or less, public places

 

[EDIT} i have NOTHING against women!!!!!.. don't take that line wrong please....lol

 

*hands Alwin a stab proof vest*  "we may not agree on a lot but ...if you need a place to hide for a couple of days, i can setup a safe house someone in a less traveled area of the SL world for you". 

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Hunter Stern said:

So as it stands now , discrimination at public (technically all businesses on search are deemed public) is allowed.

 

Federal non-discrimination clauses are for public accommodations and specifically exclude private clubs from their scope.

Nothing in Second Life is a public accommodation for the general public. They are only for the use of registered members of Second Life.

[lostsoul2017]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

So there's no misunderstanding, my statement included the situation of posting the words "Whites Only" or "Blacks Only" on a private business establishment, either in SL or RL.

The marketplace should decide if a business that restricts its customer base should thrive or fail.

 

 

in a perfect world yes a market place would decide.  unfortunately from history, we know that it is not true. marketplaces/finances are usually controlled by one group or another. that group usually has a privileged position in society.  that also normally leverages it's privileged position to control the access to opening new locations.  in real life, the people that could put up the 'whites only' or 'blacks only' signs in a town, may also control many other functions in that town.  permit control, inspections, etc. 

if the market places could control equal access, then governments around the world would not have had to get involved in giving people equal access to basic human rights and dignities. 

make no mistake, i realize fully well that people don't change their nature just because they are in SL and not in real life. People that would discriminate against others in real life will definitely discriminate against others in Second Life.  Our behavior doesn't change just because we are in a virtual world.

I really do wish that you are right and that a market could dictate which businesses survive. Unfortunately, humans don't really have a history of doing the right thing. Marketplaces reflect upon our society as a whole.

 

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, lostsoul2017 said:

in a perfect world yes a market place would decide.  unfortunately from history, we know that it is not true. marketplaces/finances are usually controlled by one group or another. that group usually has a privileged position in society.  that also normally leverages it's privileged position to control the access to opening new locations.  in real life, the people that could put up the 'whites only' or 'blacks only' signs in a town, may also control many other functions in that town.  permit control, inspections, etc. 

if the market places could control equal access, then governments around the world would not have had to get involved in giving people equal access to basic human rights and dignities. 

make no mistake, i realize fully well that people don't change their nature just because they are in SL and not in real life. People that would discriminate against others in real life will definitely discriminate against others in Second Life.  Our behavior doesn't change just because we are in a virtual world.

I really do wish that you are right and that a market could dictate which businesses survive. Unfortunately, humans don't really have a history of doing the right thing. Marketplaces reflect upon our society as a whole.

 

 

I'm talking about private business. Government services should be equally available to everything.

I think forced segregation was wrong, but,  I think forced integration is equally wrong.