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Prokofy Neva

Should There Be Disincentives for Free Accounts?

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2 hours ago, Maelstrom Janus said:

   Youre another moron   <snip>

These are the things that cause threads to get locked.  Name calling is something that children do.  Adults should be able to express their point of view without name calling.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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2 hours ago, Maelstrom Janus said:

I dont hate non premium payers I just dont like contributing to keep sl going through a hefty tier for a bunch of scroungers and freeloaders who then claim that paying for a few items here and there mean they contribute more...........

Perhaps you should learn how a forum works and understand that i wasn't talking to you... How much to you pay into SL each month? How much do you cash out? 

1 hour ago, Maelstrom Janus said:

Presumably a lot who feel like I do but cant be bothered arguing on this ever dwindling and ever pointless forum

 

And yet here you are...

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2 hours ago, Maelstrom Janus said:

I dont hate non premium payers I just dont like contributing to keep sl going through a hefty tier for a bunch of scroungers and freeloaders who then claim that paying for a few items here and there mean they contribute more..........

I started in 2014, I am NOT premium and to say that non premium players do NOT contribute is utterly stupid. I went back to my linden transactions just to see exactly how much REAL money I have put into Second Life and in the time I have been here I have bought lindens to the tune of 10,000.00 REAL money. Exactly how much money have you put into Second Life NOT counting your precious premium membership? Give me something that makes it worthwhile to become premium and I would go premium. As of today, there is absolutely nothing that makes me want to go premium. 

annie

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2 hours ago, iamyourneighbour said:

Premium doesn't generate a whole lot, if you calculate the stipend, linden lab would make about just under $5 if you sell everything back. There is indeed more cash for them in estate and virtual goods tax and L$ sales levy

Land is by far the main thing that pays Lindens' salaries and keeps the hosting lights on, but to beat a dead horse: the stipend is really LL selling new L$s to Premium accounts on a recurring basis. Yes, Premium members could theoretically sell their whole stipend to other residents on the LindeX and cash-out (paying the Lab some commission and transaction fees), but in fact most stipend L$s bounce around the SL economy a while before they get sucked into some rent payment that ends up with a landlord cashing out to pay tier, while some much smaller amount gets cashed out by a relative few content creators.

That's all a long-winded way of saying the Premium stipend benefits both the recipient and the Lab.

Also, for completeness, it is possible for a non-Premium account to contribute nothing at all to the Lab's bottom line, whereas a Premium subscriber necessarily contributes at least that Premium fee. It does not follow that non-Premium accounts contribute less on average -- nor certainly in total -- than Premium subscribers. From the standpoint of marketing and pure revenue generation, opening SL to free accounts back in '06 was surely the right business decision. The reason to second-guess that decision is the effect it may have had on governance and IP integrity, but it's far too late to even consider reversing that decision now.

Edited by Qie Niangao
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On 1/11/2018 at 5:09 PM, Parhelion Palou said:

What keeps Linden Lab going is land, especially payments for estate regions. You don't need to be premium to own an estate region, so I wonder how many of the people paying a big chunk of LL's income are premium?

Exactly! This "freeloader" paid $120.00 today for my homestead, a portion of which goes to LL, then this "scrounger" purchased $60.00 worth of Lindens. Gosh, I'm such a drain on the Linden resources, sheesh, why am I even allowed in?

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On 1/11/2018 at 5:41 PM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Oh it's so nice not being in the middle of a flame war for once.

*grins*

/me passes BilliJo the popcorn.

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On 1/11/2018 at 3:41 PM, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Oh it's so nice not being in the middle of a flame war for once.

*grins*

Relax. After the last thread (that thread), you deserve a break. BTW, big fan here. As for the elitists who think there should be a disincentives for non-premium members, remember that all monies paid for rent and MP and in-world shops helps the SL economy. I don't have a premium account now, but hope to have one soon.

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I went premium when i was about 3 weeks old. I really wanted my own place. After looking at all the bewildering options for acquiring land, all of which involved continuously buying more Lindens every week i chose to pay a yearly fee and go premium. I got my little LL house and 300 L a week pocket money, and didn't have to worry about anything. Premium was the simplest, most straightforward choice for me.

 

 

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There shouldn't be any more disincentives to free accounts than what we have now (they can't own mainland land is the only thing, basically, since premium region priority access is almost useless). I wasn't premium for my first 4 years (almost 5 years)  on SL until I started becoming premium near the beginning of previous year, and I gotta say had there been more disincentives to free accounts, I might have not been able or willing to contribute to SL as much as I did.

The way it is now is fine.

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1 minute ago, lucagrabacr said:

... premium region priority access is almost useless

Really? Why?

This is a genuine question; I don't often go to events where it matters, at least not intentionally, so I don't know that it's ever been useful to me, personally, but is it not working as planned? Originally I'd kinda supported the worry that it may be too effective, essentially excluding all but Premium members from busy events for days and days, just because of the way that queue would work when full. So I'm interested in what the actual experience has been.

{When I first glanced at this post I thought it was about Premium-only sandboxes, which are in fact pretty nice compared to the ones open to the hoi polloi. Not sure they're worth a big subscription fee, but they're handy nonetheless.)

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1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Really? Why?

This is a genuine question; I don't often go to events where it matters, at least not intentionally, so I don't know that it's ever been useful to me, personally, but is it not working as planned? Originally I'd kinda supported the worry that it may be too effective, essentially excluding all but Premium members from busy events for days and days, just because of the way that queue would work when full. So I'm interested in what the actual experience has been.

{When I first glanced at this post I thought it was about Premium-only sandboxes, which are in fact pretty nice compared to the ones open to the hoi polloi. Not sure they're worth a big subscription fee, but they're handy nonetheless.)

I didn't mean completely useless, but like, most of the time, to me personally at least. Not complaining about it, was just saying :D

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Really? Why?

This is a genuine question; I don't often go to events where it matters, at least not intentionally, so I don't know that it's ever been useful to me, personally, but is it not working as planned? Originally I'd kinda supported the worry that it may be too effective, essentially excluding all but Premium members from busy events for days and days, just because of the way that queue would work when full. So I'm interested in what the actual experience has been.

{When I first glanced at this post I thought it was about Premium-only sandboxes, which are in fact pretty nice compared to the ones open to the hoi polloi. Not sure they're worth a big subscription fee, but they're handy nonetheless.)

I consider it almost useless too. Even though I don't care for shopping much, I actually like going to events to look around (hey, sometimes decor is pretty...and I'm weird). I have yet to run into any event that is so full for days on end that people cannot get in. The vast majority of more popular events(those that do fill up sims) may be quite full on the very first day, but kinda dwindle down to being more reasonably "open" the remainder of the event...to the point that this "premium access perk" is unnecessary. Some events may have higher traffic times, but it's really not difficult at all to work around them. None, I have seen, offer something on that one, maybe two if they're lucky, "full all the time" days that is not offered all of the other days. So, other than bragging rights or feeling happy because one got in immediately, or right when he/she wanted to get in..there isn't much incentive to getting in immediately. I mean, I understand that some folks like that aspect..and more power to them(and I'm really not knocking them). It's just not really an aspect that will ever affect, probably the vast majority, of people(premium or not).  So, in essence, it IS almost useless. I am guessing it was implemented because LL, somewhere in the back of their minds, thought it would have a greater impact-it may well do that, for very, very few people...but most I don't believe actually give two craps. They just wait until they can get in-and for a LOT of people, that game is actually fun, albeit maybe frustrating at times, still fun "can I get in yet...damn...can I get in yet...damn, can I get in yet..woohooo".  There really aren't enough events with such high continuous traffic that the entire event becomes un-enterable(yeah not a word, I kinda lost my train of thought) for days on end...it just does not happen, lol. MAYBE, if an event is lucky(or, those participating, lol) they will have some hours/moments when entrance is impeded by high traffic, but otherwise, meh...wait a bit, you'll get in.

So, yeah, long winded way of saying...it IS almost useless..not entirely..but almost. :) 

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The Premium ability to get into full sims helps me in two cases:
 1) Monthly Midnight Madness - when the clock hits midnight, I want in and out of my selected locations as quick as possible so I can go to bed as midnight SLT is 1:00 am for me.  Traffic is no lighter the next morning and then I run the risk of not getting the item I want.
 2) The "1 Hour 1 Linden" specials - there is only one hour to get the item for L$1 and some items are quite popular.

For other various shopping events, I seldom even try to go until near the end.

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Well, this thread has taken many side tours but I have found it useful for my thinking because I think there could be a different way to frame the issue then, given that for me anyway, the issue is griefing and whether lack of a premium account accelerates and disseminates this problem or not.

@Drake1 Nightfire You're still not grasping what a hypothetical discussion is, and that a question mark in a subject title means it's a discussion, not advocacy of a set of points. You're also not seeing that right at the outset I said I have always supposed free accounts *because they are my customers*. Hello! But they're also my griefers. So I look at it from both sides.

@iamyourneighbor I never heard of that "over $1000" because it's been rare that I've had that sort of transaction and maybe because when I have, I was already long established and they just took the 5 days to process as they always did, i.e. I always had payment on file and premiums so I didn't know any alarm went off for that level of transaction for non-premium.

1. The issue is real life information on file. It doesn't have to be in the form of an actual recurring Premium Account, it can be in the form of Payment Information on File. That's a deterrent of sorts. However, from experience, I know that creating even just one community with that feature, which people seemed to clamor for (they also want to check boxes restricting ages and all the rest which I don't offer), instantly people then don't like it. Why? Because their friends can't come over. Because their alts can't come over! They come to hate it.

2. The Lindens have tried for 13 years to come up with a way to make premiums more attractive. They never have. That's because they have a hard problem to solve, recurring fees. People hate them. HATE them. That's why @Taramafor is right -- people do not want the $5 *every month*. And there's another issue: FORM of payment. You can buy a computer in Russia; you can pay rubles to get on the Russian Internet. You can log on to SL. But now how will you pay? With what? They have credit cards now. But some of the companies and services now boycott Russia due to the US Treasury Department sanctions related to the war in Ukraine. So if you're in a country like that, you don't have a credit card that Linden accepts. Your country doesn't let you connect to PayPal or whatever. 

This isn't the norm. Lots of places do have credit cards and that's why people from the poorer countries of the world in SL are crying poor usually for no good reason. But if you are in Uzbekistan, where you have to pay $5 US have a service to post on Facebook as just one activity, broken down in a bundle of services sold by cell phone operators, you are not going to post on FB, you'll post on VKontakte, the Russian version of a FB type thing for free.

3. There are a lot of people who don't have premiums but have payment on file and buy Lindens to spend. There are far fewer people who have money to spend but no payment on file. That's because you would have to be a highly paid sex worker, an inworld content seller or reseller with no MP presence who never cashes out (for that you'd need PIOF) or a rentals agent working for the owner who pays the tier. That category of people among the 30,000 logged on at any one time is small. So let's not pretend self-righteously that there are "all these people" who make gorgeous artworks or weapons that they sell inworld and make hundreds of real dollars to spend on their mesh bodies and fancy rentals. That is a rare type of person. I know because I have had thousands of customers over the years and they tell me how they pay, often in the process of telling me their excuses why they can't pay LOL. Some people say "I have to finish my shift at the bar, then I'll pay my rent". Other people say "my RL paycheck didn't clear yet so I couldn't buy Lindens". Curiously, some people will say "I tried to buy Lindens and it's making me wait". I never understand that, but it may happen to newbies.

4. Qie has put me on to a train of thought about what may be a better direction on inquiry which is to get the Lindens once again to fix groups. Thank God we have banning from groups now while keeping them open. Thank God they long ago got rid of the horror of "officer recall" -- remember that? Remember how Blue Linden told me, when griefers subjected me to "officer recall," that I should campaign to stay an elected officer in a group *on group land that I paid all the tier for*? The hippie thing died hard in those years (still does).

The single greatest form of griefing most people experience daily is the person who comes on the open chat in an open group and either begs for money or tries to sell their cheap dresses in a box or their gatchas and makes everyone mad. In my case, it's the more sophisticated griefing of day-olds coming and pretending they represent my business and spamming other groups with fake "ads" that are racist rants in fact.

A membership fee, even of a $1 is one way around that, because most day-olds are not going to bother to get the dollar to do that. They could, just by going to a money tree or whatever, but they tend not to. $100 membership and you guarantee a lot of them are gone but I've found, in fact not completely. I marvel at the people who pay $850 for a VIP group to come on and then beg for "rent money" or send you TPs to their yard sale. *It must work as a gimmick*.

I don't see any way around that. The group has to be moderated and someone has to man the ban button. How else? Set up scripts to trigger bans when certain key words appear in chat? That might be hard even if the Lindens tied scripting to groups which they don't. So....

Edited by Prokofy Neva

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Try to stem the flow of people whose purpose in coming to SecondLIfe is to tear down others. Even though they are stopped, it has enabled the rise of this ugly structure within the community: "protection" provided by "police lords" who claim to Linden Lab they represent and protect the communities that they seem in actuality to oppress and enslave. What kind of grid are you running when people can get chased from a mainland community for opposing Trumpism specifically or fascism generally?

This is what you have enabled by permitting anyone to walk in and act as if they own the place without even so much as investing a penny. It's enabled an ecosystem of literal wrongful social oppression, sordid lies, gaslighting. I'd be more than willing to bet that these police lords 'protect' with their hard-right fists even as they extend their sinister hand to likely hire or possibly antagonize and provoke the 'griefers' they're 'defending' us against, like subcontracting to DAESH or something (we all know that's what's going on there, BTW).

All this just to remind everyone why "Police Lords" should have power over society and stand between invested SL users who own property and adjudication from Linden Lab where conflicts arise. Oh, you want me to get in the griefer queue and appeal to the stone? How worthless is that? How worthless is Linden Lab community governance? It seems like hot air and wishful thinking from where I stand.

Go ahead, ask me why I would say so. I'm begging for anyone to ask who it is that disingenuously screwed me so hard and how they had to lie and bend objective reality and bear false witness against me to get their way, but now it seems they've got it and they've had it for some time, and yet they are completely exposed by it. And they're operating still with some sense of free license and perhaps even Linden Labs' nods and winks. You know, it's corrupted everything, and given Trumpism and illiberalism a fifth-column foothold and strength, established well within SecondLife, and right under Linden Labs' noses, passed off by some of the 'trustworthy' ones who assure you they're 'credible' while insisting I'm 'not,' despite many evident things to which I'd happily point.

I think ultimately what SecondLife needs most of all right now is actual credible adjudication within Community Governance, and maybe also something like a victim services department. Stopping the pain that is a burner account on SL might be a good call to make because not only are people abusing the accounts, but they're abusing the power they've consolidated around 'protection,' and it's the biggest turd in the punchbowl I could imagine. Why has Linden Lab allowed it?

Edited by Chromal Brodsky
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3 hours ago, Chromal Brodsky said:

Trumpism

Tangential: I have "RESIST" and/or schematic "resistors" flying as map ornaments over several of my Mainland parcels. So far, one person objected. I simply banned them from every scrap of Mainland where I pay tier, and have ever since ignored their occasional feeble remonstrations.

I could also mute them, of course, but hey: free entertainment!

 

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I wasn't aware that griefing was growing exponentially grid wide to the point where our best option was forcing restrictions and mandates that probably do more harm then good.

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15 hours ago, Chromal Brodsky said:

Try to stem the flow of people whose purpose in coming to SecondLIfe is to tear down others. Even though they are stopped, it has enabled the rise of this ugly structure within the community: "protection" provided by "police lords" who claim to Linden Lab they represent and protect the communities that they seem in actuality to oppress and enslave. What kind of grid are you running when people can get chased from a mainland community for opposing Trumpism specifically or fascism generally?

This is what you have enabled by permitting anyone to walk in and act as if they own the place without even so much as investing a penny. It's enabled an ecosystem of literal wrongful social oppression, sordid lies, gaslighting. I'd be more than willing to bet that these police lords 'protect' with their hard-right fists even as they extend their sinister hand to likely hire or possibly antagonize and provoke the 'griefers' they're 'defending' us against, like subcontracting to DAESH or something (we all know that's what's going on there, BTW).

All this just to remind everyone why "Police Lords" should have power over society and stand between invested SL users who own property and adjudication from Linden Lab where conflicts arise. Oh, you want me to get in the griefer queue and appeal to the stone? How worthless is that? How worthless is Linden Lab community governance? It seems like hot air and wishful thinking from where I stand.

Go ahead, ask me why I would say so. I'm begging for anyone to ask who it is that disingenuously screwed me so hard and how they had to lie and bend objective reality and bear false witness against me to get their way, but now it seems they've got it and they've had it for some time, and yet they are completely exposed by it. And they're operating still with some sense of free license and perhaps even Linden Labs' nods and winks. You know, it's corrupted everything, and given Trumpism and illiberalism a fifth-column foothold and strength, established well within SecondLife, and right under Linden Labs' noses, passed off by some of the 'trustworthy' ones who assure you they're 'credible' while insisting I'm 'not,' despite many evident things to which I'd happily point.

I think ultimately what SecondLife needs most of all right now is actual credible adjudication within Community Governance, and maybe also something like a victim services department. Stopping the pain that is a burner account on SL might be a good call to make because not only are people abusing the accounts, but they're abusing the power they've consolidated around 'protection,' and it's the biggest turd in the punchbowl I could imagine. Why has Linden Lab allowed it?

I agree, and I think the TOS should ban vigilante groups. I have never known one that functioned without violating the TOS *and* real-life civil rights as well.

But LL is not going to do Victim Services. They want scripted/automatic solutions and policies that don't burn staff time, not Bide-A-Wee homes. So I think the solution is to keep calling them on their allowing of anonymous avatars to log on from proxies to mask any identifying data. LL should embrace the idea of pseudonymous avatars -- RL people with SL names that mask their RL identity -- but who under the hood on the page visible only to LL have some strings that attach to RL where prosecution can take place.

Edited by Prokofy Neva

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Just follow-up thoughts: I believe that the real problem is 'free accounts' per se, just that there's no value attached to the accounts. What if the account were free but required a security deposit in cash or cryptocurrency, or even just a one-time registration fee? Would cryptocurrency preserve the anonymity I assume that they wanted to integrate into this system? The deposit could still force such users to have some form of "skin in the game" and encourage the avoidance of the worst bad behaviors, especially established people in-world using a barrage of accounts hot off the presses or banked like ammunition to achieve social effect on-grid. All that would become less easily scalable on account of the expense.

Of course, it's too late now in a sense. Social empires here have been built on falseness, as though participating in SecondLife somehow excused people from the demands of higher social consciousness. I don't think that's what SecondLife was supposed to be about; we weren't building a more perfect virtual Lord of the Flies world here, nor a better exploitative capitalistic dystopia, yet those people have been permitted to run roughshod over others' experiences here in a systemically greenlit fashion that has disempowered SecondLife's most enthusiastic good faith users. Such will-to-power movers and shakers here on SecondLife have pressed the advantage socially in a most inequitable and judicially non-credible fashion. Ask me how I know.

Alternately, why doesn't SecondLife have a wuffie/reputation system? Why can't people publicly express social esteem for others in a manner that is standardized, consistent, and at-a-glance like an attribute on a being in the AD&D monster manual? :3 Where's our crowdsourced SecondLife reputation system? If someone lies about me, I should be able to defend myself against their lies. If someone crowdsources harassment of me, I should be able to defend myself against their dark machinations. I can't even AR them, nothing happens.

There's no one problem here, and free accounts aren't that big of a deal when considered in isolation, but they are a part of the feedstock of these greater problems, hindsight being what it is. These accounts were used by some sordid operators to consolidate such evil power socially on SecondLife, I am now convinced. They built a protection racket. They "keep us safe" and they've been given more power than justices of the law in FirstLife, and yet no supervision and no ethical standards applied.

Edited by Chromal Brodsky
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No value?

I have a stack of accounts that I use. I like to theme each of them.

Case in point... yesterday I wanted to look human, but still be African. I could just take off my neko tail, ears, etc...

But instead I pulled out an old alt, and went and bought her: A 2000L Skin, a 2000L AO, an 1800L mesh head, and a stack of fashion accessories. I then did a whole series of screenshots and uploaded 10 images to form the basis of her profile and picks and 'stuff'... That was actually 5800L of things that were duplicates of items I already have on Pussycat. I must be a merchant's dream come true sometimes...

Pussycat is a neko. That won't ever change. I'd rather be banned from a plot than take off my neko parts... but other avatars are not Nekos.

All of this exists in a framework where I have an active alt that is also human, but Asian...

Most people just change their look... I get that. But to me each account has it's own "story" (I've even taken to writing these up in my picks for some of them)... and with that comes a look...

I have also cycled these up toe premium and down to basic over time - depending on how I am using land...

Right now I have 2 premiums. The other account is mostly unused... it just pays a bill and donates land. Most of my SL is done on the alts, and I make no secret that they are me - but don't usually mention it either.

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

No value? (...)

 

 

 

Those are all really great points I hadn't considered. You're illustrating the point that there are lots of playstyles that may be tied up in truly disposable free accounts. I'm not sure what the answer there is, I guess it would have to be weighed against the larger social impacts for some balance. I just suppose that in light of how things have developed over the years, it may be time to reconsider what that balance is, but absolutely nobody should be stopping you or anyone from doing their thing in good faith. A big point here is that a remedy should not create more problems than it solves, nor should it create urgent problems where none before existed.

Edited by Chromal Brodsky

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On 1/21/2018 at 7:17 AM, Chromal Brodsky said:

What kind of grid are you running when people can get chased from a mainland community for opposing Trumpism specifically or fascism generally?

I have a Black Lives Matter sign up on several parcels. I have also put up Black Panther flags (I have RL links with some of them). And I have several anti-trump / anti-racism signs up.

Things like this:

My Weapon

Rarely an issue. Though recently I did get someone having a freakout over #BlackLivesMatter at me... I just blocked them, posted their info on flickr, and banned them from all my land...

 

I've been on Mainland since 2009 - two plots on M, the rest on A land.
(I have many small parcels here and there for different things. Like the water land I have on Blake Sea for sailing).
I ran a 'political discussion' group a few months back and we did get a Tea Party member a few times - she was actually civil though, not bashing. The only 'griefing basher' my politics group had was a fellow liberal who got mad when I didn't take kindly to their offer of SL-Sex... and who railed against us 'destroying the liberal cause by talking about identity politics like racism and sexism'...

There's a flickr group dedicated to images like the one I've included above

 

Edited by Jagix Linden
Disclosure of private IMs
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21 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I have a Black Lives Matter sign up on several parcels. ...

Well, everyone knows the people who say "All Lives matter" in this context tend to actually be saying (in crypto- dog-whistle speech) that "(Only) All (White) Lives Matter." They just have to get out ahead of the idea that any nonwhite minority group can actually hold human rights equal to their "master race" and the powers granted by their presumably cultic genocidal mad male God. Even better if in doing all this they can simultaneously denigrate this concept with words woven to appear almost as though they're supporting absolute human equality even as they nevertheless actually undermine it. Oh, does someone think they're a funny and clever supremacist? You've been called out.

Anyway, it's all beneath SecondLife and our superior (*rim-shots*) funky progressive cosmopolitan community of people who are sick and tired of these anachronistic pathologies from the past rising from their graves like zombie meme hordes.

Edited by Chromal Brodsky
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2 minutes ago, Chromal Brodsky said:

Well, everyone knows the people who say "All Lives matter" in this context are actually saying in crypto- cracker dog-whistle speech that "(Only) All (White) Lives Matter." They just have to get out of ahead of the idea that any nonwhite minority group can actually hold human rights equal to their "master race" and the powers granted by their presumably cultic genocidal mad male God. Even better if in doing all this they can simultaneously denigrate this concept with words woven to appear to as though support absolute human equality even as they simultaneously nevertheless actually undermine it. Oh, does someone thinks they're a funny and clever supremacist? You've been called out.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/40847626@N06/39863526945/in/dateposted/

 

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1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/(...)

 

Just be careful that you don't violate the TOS by quoting someone's inworld speech to you without their consent. Such quotes are easily taken out of context, regardless of this particular circumstance. I think that's why the rule exists. I can tell you that when it's broken it can create such 'great' wrongful harm. In virtual and material communities alike, the meaning of speech isn't always literal and its purpose isn't always direct and obvious. Also, sometimes people just say things they don't actually mean in what they reasonably expect to be a safe context such as a virtual and/or role-playing environment online. These principles have such primacy that I kind of feel sordid looking at this screencap; I really dislike what they said to you, but I'm not sure it's "actionable" in this fashion and if I didn't take your word on it, I might be wondering more generally what else is going on here in cases resembling these. It's just... a bit fraught, though it's illustrative how tricky this can get, fast.

Edited by Chromal Brodsky

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