Should There Be Disincentives for Free Accounts?

[Klytyna]

4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Your numbers are wrong on the land.. A 512 is $5 USD a month or $60 a year.. I screwed up on the L$ cost..

No, your mistake is assuming premi-nazi fees conisst of components charged at full market prices, which would of course defeat the whole purpose of premi-nazi fees.

So, instead of thinking $62.50 for linden plus $60 for land plus whatever for Livechat plue etc.,etc.,etc.,, you should think...

$60 a year for 'free money' at poor exchange rates, plus $12 a year for 'free land' at rates that are HEAVILY subsidised to make it seem more attractive.

Your dollar a month for yourt free 512 works out prorata at what 128 usd a month for a full madland sim (assuming you made enough premi-nazi alts) compared to a standard tier for the same sim of 195 usd a month.

At your $5 a month price, a full Madlands region would cost $640 a month...
 

[Phil Deakins]

10 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Why would you not include the cost of the land they give you? It's $5 USD a month for a 512.. So, $60 USD a year.. 

Because no money is passed in either direction, so it's not a cost to LL. All the other parts are money passing one way or the other, and should be included when working out how much something costs, but 512 tier (not land) doesn't involve money at all. It doesn't necessarily involve land either but, when it does involve land, the computing costs to LL of running that 512 is miniscule compared to the $60 per year that you attributed to it.

You could assume that all Premium accounts do take advantage of the free 512 tier, and include the computing costs of a 512 parcel, because that is a real cost to LL, but you'd need to work out how much that is, and I don't think we can do that. To attempt that, you'd need to start with 128 parcels per sim x 8 full sims per server = 1024 parcels per server (twice that for homesteads). And then divide the cost of running that server by 1024. And so on. We don't know details, so we can't work it out, but I think it's clear enough that the cost per 512 is minimal.

A Premium account does receive a free $60's worth of tier per year, whether it's used or not, but it only costs LL a miniscule amount, and only when it's used. The value to the user is $60, but the cost to the lab is miniscule by comparison. That's why $60 shouldn't be included in the sums as a cost to LL. It isn't.

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Iloie Perse]

I have been here for many years and to form an opinion on free accounts will only reduce this environment to another has been. Those who enjoy this with the free account status deserve the freedom we all have. Perhaps the real question is just how competent is those that control this place. Tonight when logging in I received a warning from my virus software as to a dingle berry hanger on . Perhaps those that run this environment  need to pay more attentions to the operations as this is perhaps the best vehicle for 3D expression ever created and those pesky free griefer accounts never last more than a day or so. I did find it disturbing to find a malwarebytes announcement tonight. One would think after all these years they would have become brain dead to this  place haha but then stupidity has no limitations, does it? iF THIS Place would enjoy a much longer life it must allow those who want to join the pleasure of the free account to learn and perhaps realize the pleasure of this place to create many of your fantasy's or theirs

A simple response to free accounts is to to limit those who just might have the intellect to enjoy this platform and thus kill this place I have looked at the supposed upgrade many times and I am not impressed it is so poorly formed  it shall and will die inb infantancy  LL needs a real leader with insight on the future

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Because no money is passed in either direction, so it's not a cost to LL. All the other parts are money passing one way or the other, and should be included when working out how much something costs, but 512 tier (not land) doesn't involve money at all. It doesn't necessarily involve land either but, when it does involve land, the computing costs to LL of running that 512 is miniscule compared to the $60 per year that you attributed to it.

You could assume that all Premium accounts do take advantage of the free 512 tier, and include the computing costs of a 512 parcel, because that is a real cost to LL, but you'd need to work out how much that is, and I don't think we can do that. To attempt that, you'd need to start with 128 parcels per sim x 8 full sims per server = 1024 parcels per server (twice that for homesteads). And then divide the cost of running that server by 1024. And so on. We don't know details, so we can't work it out, but I think it's clear enough that the cost per 512 is minimal.

A Premium account does receive a free $60's worth of tier per year, whether it's used or not, but it only costs LL a miniscule amount, and only when it's used. The value to the user is $60, but the cost to the lab is miniscule by comparison. That's why $60 shouldn't be included in the sums as a cost to LL. It isn't.

 

Going by your logic, no "money" is coming from LL at all. L$ are not real money. It says so right in the TOS. 

I put it in there at full market value so I could compare costs. If you all want to make up your own numbers to justify whatever, I dont give a rats patootie. Nit pick, nit pick, nit pick. 

[Phil Deakins]

L$ are not real money, that's true. That shouldn't be in there either. I hadn't thought of it.

Your figures concluded that LL loses US$2.52 per year per annual Premium account, and that is real money. But LL doesn't lose money on those accounts.

[Taramafor]

On 09/12/2017 at 10:17 PM, Rhonda Huntress said:

My own personal opinion is if you can afford a 500 dollar computer and 50 dollars a month for internet access then a one time 5 dollar set up fee per account should be well within ones means.

You would be wrong on so many levels. Internet is needed to keep in touch with people that matter that are abroad. It's not for comfort, it's part of my life.

Add food.

Add bills

Add the fact I'm on JSA.

Add bus fair being raised.

 

I get by but only just. It all adds up. If I had to pay for SL I'd have no choice but to move off it. I suspect this would make me quite said. Others in my situation potentially depressed.

 

Quote

How about no, because punishing the well behaving masses just to get rid of a few bad apples has never done anything but royally piss people off and destroy games and virtual worlds

Also this.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Taramafor

[Nalytha]

This is my thought on the idea of annual not benefiting LL as much: I don’t have the numbers, but I’m sure they do... I would bet people who have the money to pay for annual in one lump sum are more likely to buy large amounts of lindens. IIRC, premium auto renews? It’s better to have someone accidentally pay for an auto renewal they forgot about that is $72 than for someone to pay for one month and cancel and never pay again. 

I have paid the annual fee for about four or five years, sometimes on multiple accounts to take advantage of the bonus sign up and group land bonus.

Free Second Life memberships are part of the life blood that allows us all to enjoy this wonderful world. Even if they never spent a penny, their presence alone is their contribution. I can’t imagine just how much more empty SL would be if free accounts were penalized more. 

I know I’m what some would call a cash cow in games. That doesn’t bother me. We all work with our budget. The problem I have is when people who spend money look down on those who don’t — not understanding that non paying users actually do contribute in many ways — they help populate an otherwise lonely world. They provide the opportunity for you to encounter an engaging conversation. They provide friendship, entertainment, love. They might do word of mouth irl which benefits us all.

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

On 12/9/2017 at 4:17 PM, Rhonda Huntress said:

My own personal opinion

 

11 hours ago, Taramafor said:

You would be wrong 

 

 

[Taramafor]

On 31/12/2017 at 3:01 PM, Rhonda Huntress said:

 

 

 

Yea, just because someone says they have an opinion about something doesn't change the facts of the situation.

 

Opinion: I personally like/don't like this thing. I have the context of this viewpoint even if someone has another context which is both true.

 

Fact: If someone can pay for this they should be able to pay for that which may or may not be the case.

 

One is a preference and open to change. the other is set in stone. If someone still goes "They should be able too" when they can not then they're ignoring the facts. Even if someone else goes "I have the opinion of" that does not change the fact that I have low income and can't afford subscription fees. As for lindens I got my stuff free for being "that nice of a guy". Plus items last forever. They don't have to be paid for every month. So the "being able to pay for items" argument falls short for that reason alone. I've been on Furcadia a while before being on Second Life and a lot of people in both areas make rarer purchases. Not spending their money on something every week or even month.

 

Strangely enough Furcadia is absent of "troll bots". Despite both Furcadia and SL being free. Maybe it's just better monitored due to the smaller size?

 

Also there is a disincentive for free accounts if you're a furry. It can make it harder to get into SL when you need to pay for a good "skin". The free ones aren't that great. But that doesn't prevent bots. "Disincentives" aren't the answer. The answer is to make it harder for bots by going through verification processes. There's already one for making a new account on SL which should be making it harder for them but for some reason that isn't enough. So perhaps groups themselves need a verification for new members. Some have 1L for joining which is to detour bots. And something even free players should be able to get since there's ways to get lindens for free (fishing for example). Other examples are having to do a survey on Discord when joining a server group or otherwise go "Here I am" before being let lose on the rest of the place. Maybe there could be a "Joining up group" partnered with the "main group" for verification purposes?

Edited January 3, 2018 by Taramafor

[Rhonda Huntress]

I want to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Rhonda Huntress

[Tari Landar]

7 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

I want to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

I still have every single Raffi cassette tape I have ever owned-I wore them down more than once as a kid, to the point I needed to have them replaced, a few times over. My nieces came for a visit over winter break, for about a day, Teddy Ruxpin was belting out Octopus' garden on repeat. It's the five year old's favorite, apparently.

I, of course, sent them back home to my mom(she's raising them) with every single Raffi song on their tablets. They've been playing them almost non-stop since. My step dad is growing tired of hearing it. For my mom, it's just history repeating itself, I used to do the very same thing when I was little. 

I know, off topic..Raffi songs make me smile though

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

2 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I know, off topic..Raffi songs make me smile though

I have only heard the Beatles' version.  And off topic because I changed my mind about the post and it is a friendly type of song.

[Tari Landar]

I have the Beatles one on vinyl, somewhere in my collection. It's definitely a friendly kind of song. I think I spent too many hours listening to Raffi, his name is the first that pops into my head when I hear it(and don't tell me mother that, she'll kill me...the Beatles are her all time favorite)

[Qie Niangao]

18 hours ago, Taramafor said:

Also there is a disincentive for free accounts if you're a furry. It can make it harder to get into SL when you need to pay for a good "skin". The free ones aren't that great.

I've mostly lost track of this thread, but this bit caught my eye. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems to be saying that furries in particular have a disincentive to be on a free account. This seems misguided on two counts. First, free furry skins can't be much worse than free human skins (or, more relevant, mesh avatars for both categories). More importantly, for a fixed investment, a free account can afford to buy more stuff by not paying the Premium fee. (The difference is much less than that full fee, offset as it is by the stipend L$s.)

[Taramafor]

35 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I've mostly lost track of this thread, but this bit caught my eye. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems to be saying that furries in particular have a disincentive to be on a free account. This seems misguided on two counts. First, free furry skins can't be much worse than free human skins (or, more relevant, mesh avatars for both categories). More importantly, for a fixed investment, a free account can afford to buy more stuff by not paying the Premium fee. (The difference is much less than that full fee, offset as it is by the stipend L$s.)

Even the free furry skins aren't very convincing. I had to get a good one before getting into SL at first myself. Tried getting some "free skinners" into SL once but it never stuck. Personally I think joining a contest or even fishing for it pays off. DSD is reasonable priced enough to be worth the work for it. Along with the real money spent to get the lindens for it of course.

 

We're mainly trying to figure out ways to prevent spam bots infesting groups. Anything that requires "another tick" should do the job theoretically. 1L to join a group for example. Which could as easily be "PM a group mod to get a green light that you're human".

Edited January 4, 2018 by Taramafor

[Qie Niangao]

6 minutes ago, Taramafor said:

We're mainly trying to figure out ways to prevent spam bots infesting groups. Anything that requires "another tick" should do the job theoretically. 1L to join a group for example. Which could as easily be "PM a group mod to get a green light that you're human".

I'm not sure that's really the main problem posed in this thread, but group membership is definitely one challenge. It's made especially cumbersome by the lack of script API to any group membership functions. It's a very longstanding and widespread laziness in how Lindens thought about controlling the griefing potential of scripts, so many viewer-accessible operations are excluded from scripts because the scripts could abuse them -- ignoring that enabling the same abuse by viewer simply encourages griefer bots.

The saddest part of this script-shy laziness is that it crept into Sansar, too -- although to be fair, scripting functionality in Sansar is pre-crippled by the lack of anything much interactive at all.

[Tex Monday]

On 12/30/2017 at 10:53 PM, Taramafor said:

. Internet is needed to keep in touch with people that matter that are abroad. 

 

Uh...no it's not

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Tex Monday

[Tex Monday]

8 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I have the Beatles one on vinyl, somewhere in my collection. It's definitely a friendly kind of song. I think I spent too many hours listening to Raffi, his name is the first that pops into my head when I hear it(and don't tell me mother that, she'll kill me...the Beatles are her all time favorite)

someone introduced me to Raffi about 5 years ago. I immediately put "Bananaphone" on as my ringtone.

[Maelstrom Janus]

On 21/12/2017 at 3:21 AM, Tari Landar said:

Non-premium residents outnumber premium residents by...quite a lot. If one were only to look at numbers, and nothing else, it would stand to reason that non-premium members spend more, as a whole, than premium members do.

You don't have to be premium to buy lindens-ie, spend money.  Countless non-premium members are creators too, they not only spend money, but they also create content. Without that content, a lot of sl would be pretty damn empty(ok, for the pessimists, I don't mean just parcels being used, I mean, content-wise). 

 

Make 'em all pay if they want to support sl properly they'll get an account buy land and settle in...and if Lindens respond as they should reduced tiers all round...I have an account and I spend a lot of lindens so stories about non account holders spending lindens hold little weight.. I also believe a lot of the griefing that goes on is down to non account holders too....

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Maelstrom Janus

[Maelstrom Janus]

Its about time long term account holders were given decent rewards and not baubles...reduced tiers or increased land allowances either with do...either will act as a nice incentive to new long term account being established something which shows an attitude of customers being appreciated rather than an attitude which says...we're linden labs youre lucky to be in second life....

[Nalytha]

45 minutes ago, Maelstrom Janus said:

Its about time long term account holders were given decent rewards and not baubles...reduced tiers or increased land allowances either with do...either will act as a nice incentive to new long term account being established something which shows an attitude of customers being appreciated rather than an attitude which says...we're linden labs youre lucky to be in second life....

Before anyone jumps one me, I'm not going to say SL is a game. That said, there are some interesting moves going on in gaming that do show a shift in how they are marketing and making money. One is to release a game that is free to play, but give you perks for membership. (Like SL already does). However, in many of these other games, the perks are much more substantial. In Elder Scrolls Online, there is something called a crafting bag. Any time you pick up a crafting material (which there are thousands of), it goes to a special limitless bag. This alone saves the player from having their main bag get full and have to play the inventory shuffle every few minutes. I'm pointing out Elder Scrolls in particular, because 1. They seem to be doing pretty well and 2. They have a really heavy emphasis on making money even though the game has no subscription (between the membership perks and item store) 

- Access to ALL DLC
- Crafting Bag
- Double Bank space
- Extra home furniture space
- Extra transmute crystal space 
- Dyes 
- 10% bonus leveling xp, crafting xp, gold, armor research

My point is that it's easy to see with so many perks why people would be more easily drawn to sign up for the membership. As much as many of you hate Second Life being in any way related to gaming, I honestly think they should take a look at what some of these big MMOs are doing to generate revenue. 

(For the record, I do not think ESO is completely ethical. Their participation in the loot crate field is really disappointing. But that's for another topic. And ethical or not, it is still a source of money)

[Qie Niangao]

13 hours ago, Nalytha said:

Before anyone jumps one me, I'm not going to say SL is a game. That said, there are some interesting moves going on in gaming that do show a shift in how they are marketing and making money. One is to release a game that is free to play, but give you perks for membership. (Like SL already does). However, in many of these other games, the perks are much more substantial. In Elder Scrolls Online, there is something called a crafting bag. Any time you pick up a crafting material (which there are thousands of), it goes to a special limitless bag. [...]

That reminds me of earlier discussions about Premium incentives, specifically suggestions that non-Premiums should have only a very limited Inventory capacity. Not surprisingly, merchants didn't support that idea, but it's among many that have been floated to promote paid subscriptions.

Personally, I think it's far too late to do anything dramatic to rein-in the risks of free accounts. In hindsight - and counter to the OP's opinion - I think it would have been fine if free accounts were always prevented from transferring anything from Inventory. That means only subscribers could create content, but then paid subscription would simply be a cost of doing business, and I very much doubt it would have hurt Second Life for lack of user-generated content.

[Zeta Vandyke]

If you want people to pay, then add something worth paying for to the premium accounts. Do not take away from, or put restrictions on current product that has been on the market for I don't know how many years. That's bad business.

[Taramafor]

18 hours ago, Tex Monday said:

Uh...no it's not

 

Porn doesn't do it for me.

 

Also, uh, yes it is. I get on Furcadia to keep in touch with my exes there and get to know people for their personalities and who they are. I have an owner on SL who I get on to be with and spend time with and sex is lacking (eh, it can happen in relationships). I do not get on the internet just to get my rocks off. And you'll find many many others are alike in this regard. Some people don't even want sex at all. I don't avoid it myself but I don't come on the internet for it alone either. Even on F-chat you won't get far if you just want to ***** someone without even talking to them a lot of the time. And that site is meant for it. There's rooms in there where people just hang out and have none sexual fun more often then not.

I can appreciate a good time as much as anyone but that is not "the" reason I have the internet. I remember moments like "That ex that put her avater next to me on Christmas day when I was in a bad way" and "Being there for someone that's emotional abused and has cancer IRL". Not "Rutrutrut, was it good for you too".

 

Quote

One is to release a game that is free to play, but give you perks for membership

There is another way. And that's to leave room for players to have access to the "good stuff" at a quicker pace then those that can't afford it. As an example of this in gaming terms I refer to Warframe. I'm actually quite impressed with how that game finds a nice balance between the two. Things can be sold to other players for plat and plat can be brought with real money. In some ways it's a lot like lindens. Don't think the same "Item exchange" system would work in SL but there's probably a way to do something similar somehow.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Taramafor

[Solar Legion]

@Taramafor Tex was making a joke - an old, not so funny anymore one but a joke none the less.

Lighten up a bit.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Solar Legion