A way to avoid the uncanny valley?

[heygeeksandgamers]

I'm admittedly not really used to second life. Started using it mostly as a 'har har lets mess around on second life' with mates. Find a flat colour freebie top that says 'Gamer', garish shades and garish speedos and put them on the default avatar and move on.

I want to move away from that (Friends got bored, I didn't) but man everything has one of two problems: A) expensive! or B) not necessarily ugly, just uncomfortably weird-looking, especially if you move away from looking at the screenshots and into everyday use, walking around and roleplaying or whatever. Often those with problem A) also have problem B).

Maybe the problem is that there's no consistent style? Like you could compare the Sims series which still holds up really well, even sims 2 sims still look pretty ok. But then second life is a constant clash of styles and it looks kinda like photorealistic but in a way that also makes you really uncomfortable

I was trying to find an example in other media but to kind of explain what I mean I'll just use the three skins listed under the 'Best Selling' male skins on the marketplace

One: ...actually looks really good. It's one of only a few skins I've seen that's not terrifying. 

Two: looks alright at a glance but if you look closer it feels slightly off. The hair (which I appreciate isn't part of the skin) is also part of the issue.

Three: is really what a lot of second life avatars look like to me, deep in the uncanny valley. This means no hate against the person who made this or anyone who does like this style, just personally for me (maybe it's the lighting?) it isn't really on any level of attractive of any kind.

The more anime-ish avatars tend to look pretty good and don't trigger the same kind of flight or fight response from me, though I'm hesitant to adopt one of those styles because, well, they look really child-like but at the same time with those proportions...

As I write this, I realise that a lot of avatars are kinda expressionless, which is off-putting too. The animations both facial and body in the sims really made them feel cartoonish, in second life less so, everyone has a hundred yard stare and look more like dolls than characters, people.

This is a ramble, really. I just want to know if there's a middle ground or a way to make it so that I can get an avatar that looks good even as I move around in it, or do I just need to embrace the slightly-offputting vacant looks that all second life avatars seem to have? And again, no hate to anyone who does like that look, I'm just kinda new to this

Edited December 1, 2017 by heygeeksandgamers

[norajulian]

I can't say much regarding anything else, because SL is the only "game" I've ever played, and I've been here for around 11 years at this point. That being said, SL is really an extension of RL and allows (and encourages) for unique appearances and "styles", as well as a user-created economics system where folks build and mesh and talk and what have you to support their in-world incomes and shenanigans. Because there is SO much freedom allowed, you will get different interpretations across the board. 

The best advice I can give you is the take that "Best Selling" option with a grain of salt. Unless they've changed the algorithm, that is based off of the Best Selling of all SL Marketplace existence, which means you're more likely to have some "unattractive" skins up there because back in the 'olden' days, we were all a bunch of unattractive pixel people. One morning, Linden Jesus woke up and launched mesh, which has rapidly excelled and "meshed" to the community in the last couple of years. These days, you can apply a mesh body on top of your "system-blessed" avatar and wear an invisibility cloak over all of SL Jesus' creation. From the mesh bodies came the mesh heads, and from those became the magical Bento rigging, complete with blinking heads, talking heads, wiggling fingers, face-making, and dare I say it - you can even pleasure yourself in SL at this point, I'm sure. 

For some resources: 
Skins - https://slskinaddiction.wordpress.com/    <- Skin Addiction is a blog that releases new skins and applier news, and everything related to it. Obviously, there are more resources for women out there, but you can find some men on the grid as well!

Mesh Heads/Body reviews - http://meshbodyaddicts.com/  <- I always send this to anybody who is looking to upgrade their avatar. This has a full review on the mesh heads and bodies out, as well as designers for skins and the appliers per body and head, and it can get awfully confusing. Luckily, they have handy charts that try to explain things. This website is usually up to date, and even has the recent women's Vista release (from last week, I think?) on their chart. Those bento heads are the ones that you want as far as expressions, although it's VERY possible to make yourself "smile" by editing your shape and facial features (right click on your avvie, click "Appearance" and there should be an edit shape within that menu.)
 

 

I wish I could help you out on specifics, but I'm not as focused on the male stores these days like I used to be, as there aren't too many genuine "noobs" floating around anymore. There ARE some very friendly men-folk here on the forums, though, that I'm sure will offer suggestions. 

[Penny Patton]

I tend to go less for photorealism than a lot of people and I think it works.

• My skin is hand painted, not photosourced. 
• When mesh heads were still static I stuck to the system head so I could make use of the built in expressions. They weren't great, but they were better than being blank faced all the time.
• When I did get a Bento head, it was a modifiable one I could customize with my personal skin and materials. I then got an expressive face animation HUD.
• I absolutely refuse to disable Lookat, so my avatar looks where I'm looking. Sure, this means I get IMs from the more socially stunted among us who feel they need to let you know they can see where you're looking, but that just lets me know who to mute for a more enjoyable SL experience.
• I even replaced the typing sound with simlish and expressive talking animations.

Sadly it's getting harder and harder to find modifiable content and I really have no clue what off the shelf options there are for men. Most men I see in SL tend to try for super photorealistic and popular mesh heads like the one that come with the Aesthetic bodies are in permanent scowl mode, with extremely limited options to customize your features or expression.

[cykarushb]

You'll find the aesthetic that you like, you just gotta spend some time searching for it. It can take a while if youre kinda picky like i am.

Being degenerate furry trash, i got a lot of options for avatars, but as ive been playing i have entirely gravitated to one single avatar maker, since a lot of the other large name creators im really just not a fan of from a design aspect. You either got extremely detailed stuff or very basic stuff. I like the stuff where its not heavy with the realism but not cartoony, kind of like an "average" of sorts. Nothing flashy, nothing complex.

As you look around more you'll find the kind of avatar you like in the style you like, and you can find accessories for it in a similar style.

The reason theres so much variation is that its all user created content, in the same sense that artists have a unique style, those who create content for SL are also artists with unique styles. They make avatars, clothing, furniture, accessories, etc in their own way. Which means some people are going to have flat colored meshes, some are going to have ultra high resolution textures, some are going to be polygonal in how they create complex surfaces, some are going to have like 40k triangles, some people like bright and noticeable colors, others like muted, realistic colors.

Really in the end you kind of just have to accept that SL has its limitations, and that things come down to user preference. I still see people sometimes with their system avatars from a decade ago. And ive seen others with hyper realistic avatars.

 

[MaggiJin]

don't be whatever this is. otherwise you're good.

[Resi Pfeffer]

12 minutes ago, MaggiJin said:

don't be whatever this is. otherwise you're good.

Whats wrong with them? I never would turn into a furry or any other animal styled avatar, but if someone likes that virtual lifestyle, let them do their thing.

And talking about perfection:
Once a wise person said: "The beauty and perfection of an avatar is directly linked to the uglyness and lack of self-confidence of the person behind the screen".
Well, i also switched to a mesh body and head recently. 

[MaggiJin]

4 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Whats wrong with them? I never would turn into a furry or any other animal styled avatar, but if someone likes that virtual lifestyle, let them do their thing.

And talking about perfection:
Once a wise person said: "The beauty and perfection of an avatar is directly linked to the uglyness and lack of self-confidence of the person behind the screen".
Well, i also switched to a mesh body and head recently. 

Its not that they're furrys. i know some furrys inworld and they even find these creepy. one described it better then i could "they're too much of a mix between a posessed doll and a cat, but the face is so plain it looks almost like a mask. it emulates both human and fur and yet its neither one, it just looks into you rather then at you"

Edited December 1, 2017 by MaggiJin

[MegaRose]

11 hours ago, heygeeksandgamers said:

The more anime-ish avatars tend to look pretty good and don't trigger the same kind of flight or fight response from me, though I'm hesitant to adopt one of those styles because, well, they look really child-like but at the same time with those proportions...

I haven't used them myself but the Raven Bell BJD heads are anime style while still looking like plausibly adult males.  Might be worth demo-ing.

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 hour ago, MaggiJin said:

Its not that they're furrys. i know some furrys inworld and they even find these creepy. one described it better then i could "they're too much of a mix between a posessed doll and a cat, but the face is so plain it looks almost like a mask. it emulates both human and fur and yet its neither one, it just looks into you rather then at you"

Sorry, then i have misunderstood you.
But i dont see a lot of difference to human mesh heads. A lot of them (mostly females) also look like made of porcelain, and some of them dont even bother to change the shape of the head. So you spot a lot of twins everywhere.
And talking about being creepy... Im not a big fan of random face animations. Whats the sense of blinking with one eye, looking angry, smiling every 5 seconds, if its not fitting the situation? Its just used, because the HUD makes it possible?

[MaggiJin]

2 minutes ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

Sorry, then i have misunderstood you.
But i dont see a lot of difference to human mesh heads. A lot of them (mostly females) also look like made of porcelain, and some of them dont even bother to change the shape of the head. So you spot a lot of twins everywhere.
And talking about being creepy... Im not a big fan of random face animations. Whats the sense of blinking with one eye, looking angry, smiling every 5 seconds, if its not fitting the situation? Its just used, because the HUD makes it possible?

I'd rather it be animated then be staring at someone whos expression never changes.

[Resi Pfeffer]

7 minutes ago, MaggiJin said:

I'd rather it be animated then be staring at someone whos expression never changes.

I know, staring is also not nice, but grimacing shouldnt be the solution.
Do you remember the old times, when the avatars turned their heads and rolled the eyes to where you was looking at? Or, when you had a conversation: 2 avatars directly looking into their eyes. That was something simple, but it felt very real.
Nowadays everyone is "frozen" within their AO, including myself.

[Morgan Rosenstar]

I don't have a male avie so I can't help directly on your questions however I believe I can provide some helpful feedback based on the examples you linked. I see some newbie mistakes in your definition of preferences and I'll explain what I mean.

Skin One looks very detailed indeed but this will also be the restriction. As soon as you'll try to have this skin on a different shape, different face you'll have higher risks that it doesn't look that good anymore with details not fiting that well.

Skin Three is the exact opposite. Its smoothness allows this skin to be compatible more styles and to remain consistent when the face is animated.

I don't know if you want a static style or something you can customize and fit in different genres but I believe that it's something to consider before making any purchase.

[MaggiJin]

8 minutes ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

I don't have a male avie so I can't help directly on your questions however I believe I can provide some helpful feedback based on the examples you linked. I see some newbie mistakes in your definition of preferences and I'll explain what I mean.

Skin One looks very detailed indeed but this will also be the restriction. As soon as you'll try to have this skin on a different shape, different face you'll have higher risks that it doesn't look that good anymore with details not fiting that well.

Skin Three is the exact opposite. Its smoothness allows this skin to be compatible more styles and to remain consistent when the face is animated.

I don't know if you want a static style or something you can customize and fit in different genres but I believe that it's something to consider before making any purchase.

Okay i genuinely am very uncomfortable looking at that first skin..

Edited December 1, 2017 by MaggiJin

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

Three observations on the uncanny vally effect -

1) The current mainstream trends are for a sort of "idealised" realism which can be very uncanny vally. That's one reason why I stay with my system body and head. Two, actually, because the mainstream ideals aren't mine. But anyway, everything I've seen suggests we're going through an especially uncanny period.

2) To minimise that for your avatar, look for consistency of things like colour saturation and detail in the textures of the component parts. It might be something like an enhanced photorealistic eye throwing the whole thing out of balance. It's realer than real, the skin isn't, and the combination feels off, but with a different set of eyes the skin is great. Or maybe it requires a different windlight setting to look its best. (Those that do are problematic for others of course.)

3) Part of it is what you're used to seeing. Brains are very talented at compensating in how they interpret the light coming in. I know that if I go from a mesh dress to a system shirt, I'll have a moment of thinking "eurgh, system really is dead" but then if I leave it on and log in to that later I'll like it again.

In short, I think it's a combination of things, some of which you can influence, some of which you can get used to and some of which are just part of how things are going in SL these days. Lots of stuff to try out and experiment with until you find what's comfortable for you and makes you happy.

[Janet Voxel]

The best advice I ever got on SL was: experiment, play around with things and you’ll find what you’re looking for.

Uncanny Valley is different for everybody. In my experience, most avatars look like Skin #2. That’s an average avi on SL to me. I also realize as a male, your choices are much more limited than women’s.

The second best piece of advice is demo skins and heads before you buy them. I don’t care who recommended them to you; only you are going to decide whether you like it or not. Play around with different skins on different heads, change the wind light settings, mess with the shape (yes you can do that with most demos). Don’t rush into this, just play around with it first.

[heygeeksandgamers]

Thank you everyone, as I'm quickly finding out the selection for men is pretty dire, but I think I found one or two mesh heads that work - not so much with the bodies, do people notice much if your body is just the default one? The prices are a bit steep but maybe they're worth it.

also really basic question which I'll ask here: how do I stop my avatar looking around? Was demoing some heads and whenever I'd click on the hud my head would switch to the side which was annoying since I wanted it to be facing the camera

[Morgan Rosenstar]

In your preferences, there should be something to disable the LookAt (do not look at objects and/or avatars). I'm using Singularity Viewer so I can't tell where it is on other viewers but it's there and it's what you want to disable.

[LittleMe Jewell]

Poke around @Skell Dagger's blog (http://www.virtualbloke.com/) for his take on skins (and other stuff).  He's got a great eye and probably knows every viable skin maker in SL.

[MaggiJin]

1 hour ago, heygeeksandgamers said:

Thank you everyone, as I'm quickly finding out the selection for men is pretty dire, but I think I found one or two mesh heads that work - not so much with the bodies, do people notice much if your body is just the default one? The prices are a bit steep but maybe they're worth it.

also really basic question which I'll ask here: how do I stop my avatar looking around? Was demoing some heads and whenever I'd click on the hud my head would switch to the side which was annoying since I wanted it to be facing the camera

It depends on how much your clothing covers if they'll notice. for women its more apparent because we tend to cover up less, but a nice suit and nobody will ever really notice on a guy.

[heygeeksandgamers]

I guess I also have to ask, besides the however-much the head costs, how much might I be looking at in total in extras?

IF I, say, spring for one of Catwa's bento heads (which look pretty good!) then thats 5k already, not including anything I might want on top of that like skins, eyes, clothes and so on.

Can anyone suggest a reasonable budget? Not looking to become a supermodel here, just unique!

[Janet Voxel]

I would say start with a good body first. The preference is yours. Get the head later, there seem to be more options for heads every week. Learn how to modify your shape particularly the head, that will come in handy later when you DO get a head. Tweak yourself over time, add clothes and shoes THEN get a head. 

The system head goes a long way. A mesh head isn’t a must have. A body is for current clothing and shoes is. Also get a good AO to suit your personality.

[Rhonda Huntress]

5 hours ago, heygeeksandgamers said:

Can anyone suggest a reasonable budget? Not looking to become a supermodel here, just unique!

Just ballpark numbers but ..

• 3500 for a body
• 1000 for skin
• 250 for eyes
• 500 for a couple of hair styles
• 2500 for clothes. (one suit, jeans, boots and a jacket)
• 500 for an AO

So .. about 15,000 all together or maybe 50 bucks US.

 

On the low end,

Belleza Jake body and skin, system head, shaved hair, shirtless with boots and jeans.  4500 L$ tops but you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a shirtless dude with a mesh body and system head.

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Just ballpark numbers but ..

• 3500 for a body
• 1000 for skin
• 250 for eyes
• 500 for a couple of hair styles
• 2500 for clothes. (one suit, jeans, boots and a jacket)
• 500 for an AO

So .. about 15,000 all together or maybe 50 bucks US.

Both Slink and Adam come in at under 3000 for the body with hands and feet.

Skin, learn to shop around, and hunt for group gifts, sale items, or mania/lucky chair prizes, you can save most of that grand.

Eyes, 250 seems over priced, there are eyes, good ones for much less.

Hair, 500's fair for two.

Clothes, depends which body you are buying for, Adam clothing can be as cheap as 75 for a shirt for example, andagain bargain hunt.

AO, if you are paying more than 300 for an AO, they saw you coming...

Even taking your figures... they add up to 8,250, not 15,000
 

[Klytyna]

4 hours ago, janetosilio said:

Learn how to modify your shape particularly the head, that will come in handy later when you DO get a head.

Damn right... Learn to edit a properly proportioned body and face with a system avatar before attempting to customise fitted mesh bento bodies and heads.

It's like teaching your self to juggle, do you start withg 3 soft foam rubber juggling trainer balls, or day one no manual, throw seven running chainsaws with greased handles into the air while wearing a blindfold and balanced on stilts, and hope for the best...

 

[Penny Patton]

9 hours ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

In your preferences, there should be something to disable the LookAt (do not look at objects and/or avatars). I'm using Singularity Viewer so I can't tell where it is on other viewers but it's there and it's what you want to disable.

Just remember to renable this when you're done editing your avatar. A lot of people disable this intentionally but it gives their avatars that "100 yard stare" which adds to the "uncanny valley" effect.