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apw9900

What's going on in the LEA Committee?

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1 minute ago, apw9900 said:
I actually do believe that Lexbot's statement about a "perpetual committee that has no interest or incentive in bringing in fresh blood (and new views) doesn't sound like the best recipe for quality control either" was meant about bringing fresh blood (and new views) into the committee itself and not about new artists.
 
But I may be wrong about that.

No, that is correct.  Each person has their own point of view, experiences and tastes to lean on.  This doesn't mean of course " the more people the better", only that this form of a committee should acknowledge that with fewer members, their experience and knowledge base narrows. Wouldn't that be important of the committee to acknowledge, and work against any tendencies of homogenization?

Committee and judges wouldn't need to be the same people even.

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21 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

Yes, you are right and for sure the mechanism have to be improved. Is also true that LEA don't have a long life, long enough for make a solid and low errors prone system. I do outing, hoping that no one go angry :). I had the same suspects that many have, is normal have in this situation that i think is heavy and ambiguous also for the committee members. So i did a bit dirty experiment. I sent a application form with a very unknow alt that i have and i use as inventory helper. I writed a true proposal, but with someone unknow. Well, my project was good and my alt had the sim. I like to say in public because after i felt much guilty... but for sure no one asked me something strange or tried to take over my unknow alt. I was much embarassed talking with the committe helper that wanted take care of me because newbie, and also more guilty when the work of my alt is gone in Editor Choice of destination guide. But this is my experience. I can talk only for me, obvious, but this is very real and CLEAN.

 

I understand that you felt that you were rightfully chosen, but do you think your talent is hard to spot, or more of a safe bet?

If your talent is of the more striking, obvious kind, then it doesn't take so many differing views and people to acknowledge it. It's when it comes to artists that either haven't polished their craft fully, or operate on the fringe of what is generally accepted as art (while art SHOULD push boundaries) where it's necessary that it's not the same handful of people that call all the shots, in all perpetuity.  The committee itself, should be able to acknowledge that they need new eyes now and then.

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2 hours ago, SaveMe Oh said:
2 hours ago, SaveMe Oh said:

[12:39] SaveMe Oh: Hey, you guys are the dictators of LEA, what a simple artist like me can do about it?
[12:39] SaveMe Oh: Other than try to wake people up?

 

I work in what you might call the arts education field (it's in the theatre, which is a bit of a weird "art" and many of my concerns are of a more practical nature but I was asked to write an Artist's Statement.)

I don't officially teach students Art (with a capital A) but I often work with those students. One thing I tell them is this: "Many of the people who you study in art school either didn't go to art school or got kicked out."

My grad school was very Serious about Theatre, and especially Avant Garde Theatre. (Avant Garde somehow means "Mostly written between forty and eighty years ago" but that's neither here nor there.) The general sense I got from some of the people they brought in to inspire us was:

"I am a Serious Theatre Artist who speaks Truth to Power......

........sooooooo, did you get my grant application yet?"

If you're really trying to shake things up, why are you even caring what the establishment thinks, much less trying to get into the official regions? Personally if I was an evil philistine I wouldn't try to quash an artist's voice by banning them - I'd tell them they're a genius, give them, say,$300,000 and ensure that they could do whatever they want without worrying about public opinion. Odds are they'd never be relevant again.

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1 hour ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

No, that is correct.  Each person has their own point of view, experiences and tastes to lean on.

That's a very important point here.

There are almost 7.6 billion people in the world at the moment. Most of them can call themselves artists - in one way or another, on a small or large scale.

In every form of art there is some basic technical requirements. An actor in a theatre has to be able to speak loud and clear (at least if they are going to have a voice role), a violinist has to be able to move the bow back and forth, etc., etc.

There are also some generally agreed on conventions about what is quality. Usually you will not be regarded as a good violinst by anybody if you can't play in tune.

The form of art LEA deals with, has very limited technical requirements: you have to be able to log on to Second Life, contact the committee and tp to LEA - that's all. (You don't even have to be able to rez anything since you can always stand there yourself and say you starter avatar is art.) There are no generally agreed on conventions. It's all up to the judicators' subjective opinion and nobody but nobody can claim that their view is better or more valuable or more right than anybody else's.

Such a scene can either be very liberating or very restrictive, depending on whether it is able to maintain a constant supply of fresh opinions. LEA can not have any relevance - beyond being something LL can brag about every now and then - if it can't bring in new eyes, new perspectives all the time. How that can be done, is something that can be discussed. There are several ways and there is no natural law that states that all the sims have to be granted by the same grup of people and by the same criteria.

Edited by ChinRey
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9 hours ago, SaveMe Oh said:

apw9900 begged me to quote him on this:

Livio is like a hemorrhoid that keeps coming back. He is even worse than Solo.

 

madame Selfie Oh, you are so classy. mmm i adore you. but don't follow apw suggestion, he is a bad boy.

Edited by Livio Korobase

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9 hours ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

call all the shots, in all perpetuity.  The committee itself, should be able to acknowledge that they need new eyes now and then.

I think they are conscious of this, and for what i know they discuss on. in anycase, the problem is how do, not what do. Also in this long discussion, don't seem come out one of principal points in my opinion: as stated in LEA Wiki Page, the committee have to be guided by "a dedicated board of renowned Second Life artists, ". In time, committee composition is changed and a balance between artists and marketing is gone lost. Actually no one renowned SL artist is part of the committee, and i don't know at all at least two persons in charge. For sure they are all good people, but i have some doubts about the "artistic" side... also taking this word in a SL mood. Is enough make a visit at the welcome area, LEA3, for see something that the worse noob of sl don't build and is work from a committee member. For be sincere i don't understand much of this area, Eupalinos rubbish dump included. There are so many talented landscapers in SL, make the welcome area as all the other sim of LEA, giving a round to architects for rebuild the welcome area every 6 months. But ok, this is only my tought and i am going out topic.

By my side the question is why the renowned artist are all runned away from the committee, i don't mind at all about perestroika or oligarchy, in SL they are words without meaning abused for make a bit of consensus without success.

Edited by Livio Korobase
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8 hours ago, ChinRey said:

The form of art LEA deals with, has very limited technical requirements: you have to be able to log on to Second Life, contact the committee and tp to LEA - that's all. (You don't even have to be able to rez anything since you can always stand there yourself and say you starter avatar is art.) There are no generally agreed on conventions. It's all up to the judicators'

Not true at all, you have to fill a proposal and be judged by the committee. Obviously they can't know what you build really until you do, is enough normal i think. So between the proposal for sure there is someone that is a good writer but a bad builder... same than in rl, you don't think? And if someone like to stand alone in the center of a sim thinking that is art, well, this can be also true. LEA  regions are to be used to promote art and artistic endeavors in Second Life, this is the scope. The tech side is just a part and in my opinion not the most important of the game.

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After reading this entire thread, do you want to know what I got out of it?

Jealousy..and no, I don't mean the OP, or anyone else for that matter..but my own. Of course, that's a pretty common feeling for me, so take that with a grain of salt.

Wanna know why I'm jealous? (I'm telling you anyway) I am jealous of others' talent(s). I am jealous because some people, a lot of people, nearly every single creator that exists in sl.....are all so much better at pursuing their dreams(real or imagined), and they're all so damn good at it that someone out there thinks it's awesome and wants to put it on display(ok that's referring to just the artists "sponsored" by the LEA). I'm jealous because, for the vast majority of people, even people who may not be that great right now...their talents are more likely to increase, with enough effort and determination, while mine have likely peaked and will never get any better than they are today.  But..at the same time...I'm also happy for them. Because I think it's pretty damn awesome that people can come into a virtual space like sl, decide "hey, I wanna do something creative"..and then they do. Whether it's my cup of tea or not...I cannot deny the absolute awesomeness that is the sheer opportunity to be creative, to put talents on display, and to thoroughly enjoy doing so.  I thoroughly enjoy what I do too, and did when I could do more, because I could recognize the opportunity that LL gave my by allowing me to create, in whatever way I deem interesting (within TOS)

So, whether or not people approve of bylaws, changes, hell even if someone on the committee is letting his best friend's mother's pet rat display art for multiple terms(or whatever they're called in this instance) all because "my friend"....*I* am grateful that pet rat got an opportunity. Because LL doesn't HAVE to do that. I guess I'm an oddball, but I liken this to when I was able to do sim designs for RFL. I only got to do it for two years before I could no longer  ::sobs:: and the only reason I can no longer is because my own talents have gone down the crapper along with my vision as it slowly disappears.

Maybe this is my way of saying "quit bitching and enjoy the art", but in a lot nicer way. But...it's really hard to explain why even the ugliest build in sl, is still awesome to me...as long as I can still see it. I'll take whatever I can see, for as long as I can see it, then I'll have a lifetime of memories when my lights go out. 

Y'all are pissing and moaning about weird (to me) things, even if you think they have a principle....Enjoy the Art while we've got it please.  You'll have it far longer than folks like I ever will, don't squander you gift of sight because you're too busy using your gift of tongue. 

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2 hours ago, Livio Korobase said:

Not true at all, you have to fill a proposal and be judged by the committee. Obviously they can't know what you build really until you do, is enough normal i think. So between the proposal for sure there is someone that is a good writer but a bad builder...

I may have exaggerated a little bit of course but I did mention something about it earlier in this thread: I do occasionally do house calls to assist when some inexperienced builder cries for help in the BB chat and I happen to have some time to spare. Some of those house calls have been to LEA.

Great building skills is obviously not a criterium there. Personally I don't think they should be either but that too is something that can be discussed. However, judging by the LEA installations I have seen, if technical building skills are supposed to be important, the requriements need to be higher than they are today if not, they need to be lower.

Edited by ChinRey

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1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

Maybe this is my way of saying "quit bitching and enjoy the art"

But some people will claim that bitching is a form of art! :P

I can't argue against that myself. In the corner of RL where I live, swearing is most definitely regarded as art by everybody.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

installations I have seen, if technical building skills are supposed to be important, the requriements need to be higher than they are today if not, they need to be lower.

Yes, i understand what you mean, but in this context skills are not so important. LEA is not a museum or "the best of the best". Is some sims that LL give for no money as a sort of big regulated sandbox for make artistics or supposed artistic works. I have a classical formation and i am a architect. Sometimes i suffer a lot looking what people can do calling this art, but this is maybe a personal problem, i don't go around as self proclaimed bailee of the true meaning of art for this, as others do here as principal and only activity in sl. i learned that is part of game, and is good so. And at the end if someone is so presumptous to think build art but build *****, why this have to be my problem? In anycase is a good thing that he/she have a occasion for act, make things and not just blablablabla... they think to be the new Caravaggio? ok, don't go angry, before or after the reality come, is sure.

Edited by Livio Korobase

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i think LL should take the LEA sims down.

I dont see why "artists" .. need free space. If they'r that good, let them raise funds as any other organisation for art and any support like pink ribbon, MS, Diabetes... Pride.. and lots more.

It will stop this kind of useless discussions. "My word against yours, yours against mine, and in a year it still will be the same".

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13 hours ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

 

I understand that you felt that you were rightfully chosen, but do you think your talent is hard to spot, or more of a safe bet?

well, i don't think that this action i did was the smarter of my life... but i wanted try and i have learned something interesting. By committee side, they acted in correct manner from all side, for me is more than enough.

Edited by Livio Korobase

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7 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i think LL should take the LEA sims down.

Why? LEA is a good business for LL, they get a lot with minimum effort... but for sure Sansar is a good alternative for art, you can have 3 "sim" for free, more good tools and resources. As many already started notice.

Edited by Livio Korobase

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38 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

Why?

 

45 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

I dont see why "artists" .. need free space. If they'r that good, let them raise funds as any other organisation

 

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A significant difference between LL giving free resources for art and giving free resources for charities is that charities collect money and, therefore, is open to fraud, which, presumably, LL doesn't want to spend time policing. Whereas, from what I've read in this thread, the art sims are not allowed to take money, not even in sales, and don't need LL's time policing it.

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7 hours ago, Livio Korobase said:

I think they are conscious of this, and for what i know they discuss on. in anycase, the problem is how do, not what do. Also in this long discussion, don't seem come out one of principal points in my opinion: as stated in LEA Wiki Page, the committee have to be guided by "a dedicated board of renowned Second Life artists, ". In time, committee composition is changed and a balance between artists and marketing is gone lost. Actually no one renowned SL artist is part of the committee, and i don't know at all at least two persons in charge. For sure they are all good people, but i have some doubts about the "artistic" side... also taking this word in a SL mood. Is enough make a visit at the welcome area, LEA3, for see something that the worse noob of sl don't build and is work from a committee member. For be sincere i don't understand much of this area, Eupalinos rubbish dump included. There are so many talented landscapers in SL, make the welcome area as all the other sim of LEA, giving a round to architects for rebuild the welcome area every 6 months. But ok, this is only my tought and i am going out topic.

I would never have thought that I would live long enough to agree with something you posted, Livio, but this post actually makes a lot of sense even to me. And I also do agree in what you stated in another posting about Second Life art scene needing LEA. So do I believe. Upcoming artists shouldn't spend time fundraising to get a sim for a period.

LEA could, if run in the right way, be a wonderful starting place for upcoming artist to use and experiment with.

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25 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

LEA could, if run in the right way, be a wonderful starting place for upcoming artist to use and experiment with.

It is already, if you go a bit around you can see. I am happy you agree with me, i think i am realistic and obvioulsy what i write is just what i think. I told same things to committee time ago, i am not telling secrets. I told to Ebbe also, but the problem is: found out that something in the actual mechanism is not working in a perfect manner, how repair? Because the people that actually compose the committee can't be condemned to be a committee member for life... I believe that this is the main problem and find a clean solution is not simple. And more than the bylaws new and old i think missing true artists in committee is a big problem. Now is arrived also Sansar, where the LEA is completely useless by a practical point of view and for artists is a very interesting platform. We see... but for sure is not attacking on formal papers the committe that something go change.

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6 hours ago, ChinRey said:

But some people will claim that bitching is a form of art! :P

I can't argue against that myself. In the corner of RL where I live, swearing is most definitely regarded as art by everybody.

Rofl, true.

A lot of people have made arguing into an art form of sorts, whether it's nonsensical, or not. My son has an uncanny ability to debate early anything, and often employs that ability. He doesn't do it to argue, he's just super efficient at debating almost any topic...It's sometimes scary, how good he is at it,  to be honest. 

Edited by Tari Landar
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Alas, LEA, such a tiny teapot for so much tempest.

Perhaps there is something about the very nature of art, that talent and sense of entitlement are so negatively correlated. [*]

All a good enough excuse to see The Meyerowitz Stories (New and Selected).

[* EDIT: or maybe just the good ol' Dunning-Kruger effect.]

Edited by Qie Niangao

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Hello Kristin Linden

I received from you a mail where you thank me for participating in our community but found out I was in violation of Second Life Community guidelines what made you remove a post from the thread.

May I ask you, after you furfilled this important task, to have a look at the question here: What's going on in the LEA Committee?

It seems that under your company's responsability the LEA committee doesn't act according their own rules resulting in possible fraud, corruption and nepotism. Please be so kind to investigate this also as you do so well on keeping an eye on our beloved TOS.

Thank you,

SaveMe Oh

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It looks like this thread has reached it's end point.

Hence, it's time to let it slide down the list and vanish into oblivion.
 
My initials claims was about the relationship between the LEA Committee and the LEA Bylaws. And to put it briefly I did accuse the LEA Committee for behaving like a school book example of an oligarchy with no respect for the LEA Bylaws.
 
Some of you backed me up in that accusation, and some of you claimed that everything the LEA Committee did was in accordance with the bylaws. And on the whole the discussion we all had was courteously.
 
I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for that.
 
During our discussions other aspects of LEA also was mentioned.
And I do have a feeling that there is some wondering about the way LEA works. So though I wrote that the thread would vanish into oblivion, it's my hope that some of you will keep raising questions about LEA and the way it's run if you meet members of the LEA Committee and/or you meet the artists on the LEA sims on your travels in Second Life.
 
I for sure will.
Because if we do nothing then nothing will be changed.
 
But if we do then perhaps LEA eventually will turn into the LEA it originally was intented to be.
 
Have a nice weekend all :-)
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