What's going on in the LEA Committee?

[apw9900]

10 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

Stop with this pain apw, i have nothing to document...maybe you forgot that is YOU that raised this discussion... useless tell, you read only what you want read. Bye

You wrote:

 

"Read well the papers, and you can discover that what you say is ***not true***."

 

I read the papers and couldn't find it. And then I asked you to point me to the right place.

But instead you started a rant that would make Donald Trump envious.

 

Wouldn't it just have been easier if you gave me a link to what you know and I don't know?

[Livio Korobase]

1 hour ago, apw9900 said:

Wouldn't it just have been easier if you gave me a link to what you know and I don't know?

What i have to give you a link about what? You are drunk? YOU have to prove what you say, me i have nothing to do. If all that you have for support your declarations is your byzantine interpretation of a old and dead document, there is nothing to say more. Kennylex already showed you HOURS AGO where you are wrong also taking in consideration a document that is not more in charge from long time and have zero value. You read only what you think is more good for your personal interpretation, what you want more? But more interesting, what you think to do with this discussion? You called also the mama and instead add something interesting on discussion she put selfies, is this serious? For the last time, bye.

[Kennylex Luckless]

3 hours ago, Livio Korobase said:

This explain well why and how they did, but is related to an old document. The actual is here: http://lea-sl.org/about/lea-bylaws

Is completely useless talk or claim topics about a dead document, no? They changed and they was authorized to do, where is the problem?

The main post is about the "old rules" and the question was how someone (during that period) could be able to be a LEA committee member longer than two periods, so I think it is important to talk about the history and the old rules, I do not see it as useless.

I have a feeling that this thread is 'Troll Art' to open old wounds within the 'art community' just to be able to post links to Ego Art Videos.

[Aethelwine]

18 minutes ago, Kennylex Luckless said:

The main post is about the "old rules" and the question was how someone (during that period) could be able to be a LEA committee member longer than two periods, so I think it is important to talk about the history and the old rules, I do not see it as useless.

I have a feeling that this thread is 'Troll Art' to open old wounds within the 'art community' just to be able to post links to Ego Art Videos.

Well a process has been outlined under the old rules where the rules could be changed and additionally how Committee members can remain beyond 2 years with a short ex-officio period. apw9900 seems convinced that didn't happen, but I don;t know how he can be so sure of that. It is all a bit academic as the rules being discussed are "By Laws", which means they are self regulations... ie the Committee itself is ultimately responsible for enforcing or not the rules anyway and not Linden Lab.

I also am beginning to think that too.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Aethelwine

[Livio Korobase]

37 minutes ago, Kennylex Luckless said:

The main post is about the "old rules" and the question was how someone (during that period) could be able to be a LEA committee member longer than two periods, so I think it is important to talk about the history and the old rules, I do not see it as useless.

Your analisys is correct and interesting, "useless" was not about you, but i was thinking why have to be interesting a rant based on a old document changed many times during years and that is not anymore in charge from long time? I don't see something interesting on this, and i don't see the scandal because all that is happened was clearly permitted by rules, as you explained. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Livio Korobase

[apw9900]

37 minutes ago, Kennylex Luckless said:

I have a feeling that this thread is 'Troll Art' to open old wounds within the 'art community' just to be able to post links to Ego Art Videos.

 

Oh, you can be sure that this is not 'Troll Art'.

 

I am seriously concerned about the lack of transparency and democracy in the way LEA is managed by the LEA Committee. To me the LEA Committee very much looks like a school book example of an oligarchy.

 

And I believe you earlier asked what I would suggest to change in the way LEA works. I actually have a few suggestions to that:

 

1) Members of the LEA Committee should be recruited through a public election.

2) All residents in Second Life should be able to run for a seat in the LEA Committee based on their ideas and visions.

3) Summary minutes of all committee metings should be public.

4) A list of all applicants for a LEA sim should be published on the LEA website.

5) Residents of Second Life votes for the artist they would like to see on a LEA Sim.

 

Those suggestions would open LEA to a broader public.

The candidates for a seat would be chosen on basis of their visions and ideas, and would have to promote themselves.
Applicants for a sim would have to promote their ideas to a broader public in order to get votes.

 

That way LEA wouldn't be a closed party for the few but would open up to the world and involve everyone with an interest for Second Life art.

 

And it shouldn't be that hard to make those changes. It's just a question of will.

[apw9900]

31 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Well a process has been outlined under the old rules where the rules could be changed and additionally how Committee members can remain beyond 2 years with a short ex-officio period. apw9900 seems convinced that didn't happen, but I don;t know how he can be so sure of that. It is all a bit academic as the rules being discussed are "By Laws", which means they are self regulations... ie the Committee itself is ultimately responsible for enforcing or not the rules anyway and not Linden Lab.

I also am beginning to think that too.

Since one (1) current member of the LEA Committee has had a seat in the committe ever since LEA was founded in 2010 in spite of the two term policy, each and every decision made after 2014 has been invalid due to the LEA Bylaws, as he at the time was and still is an illegal committee member according to the LEA Bylaws. And that also includes altering the very same bylaws.

 

That, I find is a problem.

[Livio Korobase]

38 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

1) Members of the LEA Committee should be recruited through a public election.

2) All residents in Second Life should be able to run for a seat in the LEA Committee based on their ideas and visions.

3) Summary minutes of all committee metings should be public.

4) A list of all applicants for a LEA sim should be published on the LEA website.

5) Residents of Second Life votes for the artist they would like to see on a LEA Sim.

 

Those suggestions would open LEA to a broader public.

The candidates for a seat would be chosen on basis of their visions and ideas, and would have to promote themselves.
Applicants for a sim would have to promote their ideas to a broader public in order to get votes.

 

That way LEA wouldn't be a closed party for the few but would open up to the world and involve everyone with an interest for

Fried air... point 1 is delirant. point 2 is already so. point 3, can be. point 4 the list of artist in grant for each round is already published, and i don't think is interesting know the list of all the projects presented. 5 is delirant, why residents have to vote something for a artist that maybe is for nothing interested on do something on LEA? LEA is already open to all, what mean "broader" in this context? Applicant for a sim that promote their idea to a broader public what mean? desolate assemblies where a guy talk alone with the sea? Then, you close adfirming that LEA is a closed party for few. There are at LEA at least 80 full sim different work exposed for year, and you affirm that is a closed party? You can say i don't like the people that actually compose the committee, is more sincere and fast. Maybe you like if Ebbe ask you to prepare a list of friend to be elected  in next LEA committee?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Livio Korobase

[apw9900]

1 minute ago, Livio Korobase said:

Fried air... point 1 is delirant. point 2 is already so. point 3, can be. point 4 the list of artist in grant for each round is already published, and i don't think is interesting know the list of all the projects presented. 5 is delirant, why residents have to vote something for a artist that maybe is for nothing interested on do something on LEA? LEA is already open to all, what mean "broader" in this context? Applicant for a sim that promote their idea to a broader public what mean? desolate assemblies where a guy talk alone with the sea? Then, you close adfirming that LEA is a closed party for few. There are at LEA at least 80 different work exposed for year, and you affirm that is a closed party? You can say i don't like the people that actually compose the committee, is more sincere and fast. Maybe you like if Ebbe ask you to prepare a list of friend to be elected  in next LEA committee?

One more time just for you then:

Members of the LEA Committee are recruited and chosen by members of the LEA Committee. 

Turning granting of sims into an election (like the way a member of a city council is chosen) would force the artist to promote his or hers ideas to get votes. That could be by using Facebook, Twitter and other social media. And by having rallies in Second Life. By doing so more people would be aware of what LEA is - and it might even bring more visitors to the sims.

And the same goes for election of committee members. They too would have to convince those with an interest for art that they deserve to have a seat in the committee. And if they do a good job they can even get a second term.

LEA needs a good portion 'glasnost' and 'perestrojka'

[KanryDrago]

Public voting on which artists get sims is a terrible idea.

Good art isnt a popularity contest.Indeed good art often makes people feel uncomfortable.

 

[Livio Korobase]

39 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

 

LEA needs a good portion 'glasnost' and 'perestrojka'

LEA need a good portion of good and serious proposals, and i am sorry to inform you that SL is not a RL simulation game, SL is a vital and happy place where people can express creativity without have the weight to think at Louvre or criticism or barbados self-made experts. Grants are already assigned by a vote, for what i know committee members vote each project and then who get best results get the grant. Open this system to public is the same than use the like system of facebook. you know that you can buy 1.000 likes for few dollars, right? And you think this is something desirable? We can do a lottery, is the same. This get us in a more good world? I don't think. Ah, yes, maybe you do for me because i am the only that read you... be happy that at least one do.

[apw9900]

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

Public voting on which artists get sims is a terrible idea.

Good art isnt a popularity contest.Indeed good art often makes people feel uncomfortable.

 

But the way it is now the definition and decision of 'good' art is in the hands of only 6 people. They, and only they, has the power to decide which artists will get a sim to work on.

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

But the way it is now the definition and decision of 'good' art is in the hands of only 6 people. They, and only they, has the power to decide which artists will get a sim to work on.

Left to a popular vote good food would be classed as mcDonalds. I rest my case

Edited November 22, 2017 by KanryDrago

[Livio Korobase]

1 minute ago, apw9900 said:

But the way it is now the definition and decision of 'good' art is in the hands of only 6 people. They, and only they, has the power to decide which artists will get a sim to work on.

this also is not true. In SL i know some sim owners that have nothing to do with LEA that do the same, they give a sim to an artist for work free. where you live?

[apw9900]

3 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

LEA need a good portion of good and serious proposals, and i am sorry to inform you that SL is not a RL simulation game, SL is a vital and happy place where people can express creativity without have the weight to think at Louvre or criticism or barbados self-made experts. Grants are already assigned by a vote, for what i know committee members vote each project and then who get best results get the grant. Open this system to public is the same than use the like system of facebook. you know that you can buy 1.000 likes for few dollars, right? And you think this is something desirable? We can do a lottery, is the same. This get us in a more good world? I don't think. Ah, yes, maybe you do for me because i am the only that read you... be happy that at least one do.

Sometimes you read my posts like the Jehovah's Witnesses reads the Bible. You don't read what I write. You read what you think I write.

It's not about getting likes on Facebook.

The voting process could be something like the way you vote for the Second Life 'Avi Choice Awards' where Second Life residents actually have to log in to vote.

[apw9900]

3 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

this also is not true. In SL i know some sim owners that have nothing to do with LEA that do the same, they give a sim to an artist for work free. where you live?

For heavens sake, Livio.

This thread is about LEA. Hence, I was talking about LEA sims. When I had my gallery I too let other artists use my land for their art, so I know all about that. But now we are talking about LEA sims. 

Keep focus or leave the discussion.

[Lexbot Sinister]

While i don't believe significance of art can be mandated by popular vote, a perpetual committee that has no interest or incentive in bringing in fresh blood (and new views) doesn't sound like the best recipe for quality control either.

Also being mindful of that there are many artists in SL that can't afford a full sim and would love to see their point of view being seen by a larger public, it's rather regretful that their Linden granted right to apply for a free sim for their project is in the hand of 7  6 people who can never be replaced, never tested, and not protested against. I understand that it's a thankless job, but also a power over hundreds of artists and thousands of visitors.

 

If quality of art is the spinning point for the committee picking their own new members, i do have to wonder why there are no guest judges at minimum?

 

Edit: At what point does it become an all-mighty feudal entity? At 4 committee members that don't need to step down and vote in more members? At 3? 2? 1? That's what i thought the rule was for, that there is no excess power concentration, and it can never end up to 2 people and their dog deciding who gets a sim and who doesn't, on behalf of LL.

I also believe that LL could put stricter rules for the committee.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Lexbot Sinister

[Livio Korobase]

23 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

The voting process could be something like the way you vote for the Second Life 'Avi Choice Awards' where Second Life residents actually have to log in to vote.

that is exactely the same... win who have more friends.

[Livio Korobase]

20 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

Keep focus or leave the discussion.

Sorry but no, i don't leave the discussion. Again, is you that loose focus and mix topics. Is obvious that for lea sim is the committee that decide, you don't think?

[apw9900]

2 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

that is exactely the same... win who have more friends.

At least the decision wouldn't be in the hands of an oligarchy.

[Livio Korobase]

Just now, apw9900 said:

At least the decision wouldn't be in the hands of an oligarchy.

Is the same, i don't mind on oligarchy. If things they must be false (and i don't think is so in the case of our "oligarchy") with a public vote is also worse. In first case you can know at least who is the responsible, in your case no, is just pay someone for vote (as often happen in SL awards). Very open to all sort of cheats.

[Lexbot Sinister]

9 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

Is the same, i don't mind on oligarchy. If things they must be false (and i don't think is so in the case of our "oligarchy") with a public vote is also worse. In first case you can know at least who is the responsible, in your case no, is just pay someone for vote (as often happen in SL awards). Very open to all sort of cheats.

 

There are NUMEROUS other ways to improve a 6 person feudal system, other than straight up 1:1 voting.  I have so far mentioned guest judges, which i believe would be a minimum effort at fairness. It seems though as you are more interested in butting heads with apw9900 rather than discussing anything. In that case, i will also suggest Private Messages.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Lexbot Sinister

[SaveMe Oh]

apw9900 begged me to quote him on this:

Livio is like a hemorrhoid that keeps coming back. He is even worse than Solo.

 

[Livio Korobase]

33 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

While i don't believe significance of art can be mandated by popular vote, a perpetual committee that has no interest or incentive in bringing in fresh blood (and new views) doesn't sound like the best recipe for quality control either.

Yes, you are right and for sure the mechanism have to be improved. Is also true that LEA don't have a long life, long enough for make a solid and low errors prone system. I do outing, hoping that no one go angry :). I had the same suspects that many have, is normal have in this situation that i think is heavy and ambiguous also for the committee members. So i did a bit dirty experiment. I sent a application form with a very unknow alt that i have and i use as inventory helper. I writed a true proposal, but with someone unknow. Well, my project was good and my alt had the sim. I like to say in public because after i felt much guilty... but for sure no one asked me something strange or tried to take over my unknow alt. I was much embarassed talking with the committe helper that wanted take care of me because newbie, and also more guilty when the work of my alt is gone in Editor Choice of destination guide. But this is my experience. I can talk only for me, obvious, but this is very real and CLEAN.

[apw9900]

8 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

 I can talk only for me, obvious, but this is very real and CLEAN.

I actually do believe that Lexbot's statement about a "perpetual committee that has no interest or incentive in bringing in fresh blood (and new views) doesn't sound like the best recipe for quality control either" was meant about bringing fresh blood (and new views) into the committee itself and not about new artists.

 

But I may be wrong about that.