What's going on in the LEA Committee?

[Klytyna]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I think that Callum meant that nobody is being defrauded, so it's not fraud, and 'fraud' is the wrong word.

If you know of someone who has actually been defrauded - been cheated out of some property of money - then please explain what happened.

The purpose, as I understand it, of the LEA, is to issue 'grants of land' to chosen artists, to encourage arts in SL.

If a clique, has, in violation of the LEA's constitution,  taken and held power, and is passing out those grants of free land, LL's land, to their 'special friends' in a manner that is not in accordance with LL's original intention for the scheme, based on nepotismn or patronage or under the counter deals, then LL are the ones being defrauded, as certain parties who are not supposed to get the grant, are recieving free use of full sims, with a market value of 2-300 usd a month.

20 sims, at 2-300 usd a month, being handed out by a self appointed unconstitutional clique, to inappropriate people, sounds like a possible case of fraud to me... Worthy at least of an official investigation by LL.
 

[ChinRey]

58 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

20 sims, at 2-300 usd a month, being handed out by a self appointed unconstitutional clique, to inappropriate people, sounds like a possible case of fraud to me... Worthy at least of an official investigation by LL.

Whether fraud is the right word or not, is a matter of semantics and doesn't really change anything.

I think Kyltyna is right that if there are irregularities with how LEA is run, it's mainly a problem for Linden Lab and they may or may not want to take a look.

"Linden Endowment for the Arts" - that name looks good in LL's portfolio and marketing value is probably worth the expense of running a few sims. But it may not be important enough that they are willing to spend a lot of time and effort on quality control. They may decide not to rock the boat and keep LEA for their Bragging List. Who knows?

Edited November 21, 2017 by ChinRey

[Livio Korobase]

LOL Joseph APW this is so silly... LOLLL you are still angry with Solo? I can't believe :). Is YEARS now that you arise this discussion, always without a result. Why?

[Dekka Raymaker]

I have just returned from a 6 year break from SL. I was an original committee member of the LEA, it came about through a discussion I had with M Linden about getting Linden Labs interested in the art world that was existing in Second Life, my original idea was different, Michael Linden and I believe Amanda Linden finalised the concept that became the Linden Endowment for the Arts. Initially requests were made for members to apply to be a committee member, thus I replied, I am a artist in RL and was in SL, I am also a studio manager for artists in RL, so I guessed my credentials were good enough, as well as being involved will early discussions on it, and so I became a committee member. Committee members do not get anything out of this, basically it is no more than a SIM manager, although the members do get to decide who gets allocated a SIM. The LEA belongs to Linden Lab, there is no funding for committee members, I set up the original graphics for the LEA, all the textures I paid to upload, I didn't get any of the upload costs back from LL. 

I would like to defend it more, but my experience of the LEA is six years old, so I don't know what as happened in that time. All I can end on is that Linden Lab doesn't have any need to keep these 20 sims available for free for customers to use, so I am sure if you complain enough the easiest option for LL would be to shut it down.

One last thing about Art in Second Life, some avatars who think they are good artists are actually really crap, filling a 20k prim with photographs isn't going to get you a sim.

Although I was a SL artist at the time, at no time EVER have I had a SIM for my own usage. I do however make full use of the Sandbox available to everyone in Second Life. However, now I am not involved it would be nice to have usage of one of the SIMs some time in the future.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Dekka Raymaker
Another point

[Livio Korobase]

4 minutes ago, Dekka Raymaker said:

I set up the original graphics for the LEA, all the textures I paid to upload, I didn't get any of the upload costs back from LL.

And this is what happen to any people that get a place at LEA. No tips, and expenses for build as in any other place of SL. At the end, this rant from APW is just another manner for have a bit of visibility, he and his friend SaveMe. Is years that they use the topic "art" for have a sort of virtual life, in reality they USE art just for promoting themselves. There are things that can be done more well? I think yes, but this is not so special... There are suspect activities from LEA committee? No, no one. They are getting money abusing of something? No. So, we are talking about what?  Hysteria is boring, and this APW seem suffering. He is gone banned from FB groups because he seem unable to listen and understand what other people tell,  boring and petulant, sending hundreds messages always the same, aggressive and arrogant. Why waste time again? He felt alone and want attentions... useless people.

[apw9900]

47 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

LOL Joseph APW this is so silly... LOLLL you are still angry with Solo? I can't believe :). Is YEARS now that you arise this discussion, always without a result. Why?

 

48 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

LOL Joseph APW this is so silly... LOLLL you are still angry with Solo? I can't believe :). Is YEARS now that you arise this discussion, always without a result. Why?

Hello Livio :-)

 

Long time no see.

 

This has nothing what so ever to do with Solo. He is no longer a part of LEA.
But we are still exchanging arguments from time to time. This time we are talking about Iono Allen's latest machinima 'The Big Ego' on YouTube.

Look it up and take part of the discussion.

[Livio Korobase]

1 minute ago, apw9900 said:

Look it up and take part of the discussion.

No thank you, i don't partecipate to marketing discussions. Why i have to go look at a video from your friend, or at yours? Look at your ego, maybe is a good step in the right direction. Don't use public places for promoting yourself or work of your friends, this is not a marketplace.

[apw9900]

26 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

And this is what happen to any people that get a place at LEA. No tips, and expenses for build as in any other place of SL. At the end, this rant from APW is just another manner for have a bit of visibility, he and his friend SaveMe. Is years that they use the topic "art" for have a sort of virtual life, in reality they USE art just for promoting themselves. There are things that can be done more well? I think yes, but this is not so special... There are suspect activities from LEA committee? No, no one. They are getting money abusing of something? No. So, we are talking about what?  Hysteria is boring, and this APW seem suffering. He is gone banned from FB groups because he seem unable to listen and understand what other people tell,  boring and petulant, sending hundreds messages always the same, aggressive and arrogant. Why waste time again? He felt alone and want attentions... useless people.

 

 

There are a couple of things wrong in your statement, Livio.

 

I have actually seen several tip jars on LEA sims I have visited. And Dekka didn't talk about being an unpaid artist on a LEA sim. He was talking about the textures he made for LEA as a member of the committee. And finally I have never talked bad about any artist using a LEA sim.

The rest of your post seemed a bit uncontrolled to me, so I wont comment on that.

 

Perhaps you just need to actually read what this thread is all about so your opinion is based on facts and not your personal prejudices.

 

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Klytyna said:

The purpose, as I understand it, of the LEA, is to issue 'grants of land' to chosen artists, to encourage arts in SL.

If a clique, has, in violation of the LEA's constitution,  taken and held power, and is passing out those grants of free land, LL's land, to their 'special friends' in a manner that is not in accordance with LL's original intention for the scheme, based on nepotismn or patronage or under the counter deals, then LL are the ones being defrauded, as certain parties who are not supposed to get the grant, are recieving free use of full sims, with a market value of 2-300 usd a month.

20 sims, at 2-300 usd a month, being handed out by a self appointed unconstitutional clique, to inappropriate people, sounds like a possible case of fraud to me... Worthy at least of an official investigation by LL.
 

I disagree. I agree that something certainly appears to be wrong but I don't agree that 'fraud' is the right word for it.

[Shamara Henley]

The sims are owned by people who pay for it...  in my opinion, it is kind of normal if they are part of the committee no matter what.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Shamara Henley

[Livio Korobase]

22 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

> I have actually seen several tip jars on LEA sims I have visited.

> Perhaps you just need to actually read what this thread is all about so your opinion is based on facts and not your personal prejudices.
 

I have read well, and i don't see ONE fact. You just expose some suspects, with NO ONE evidence. Then, if you have ONE real fact to expose, i am happy to read and discuss. But you don't have, i know already, is YEARS that you do the same... blablabla as a little beginner lawyer, promoting yourself and your friends. Stop.

 Tip jars are admitted for external artists hosted by a lea sim owner, for a special event. if you saw a tip jar for a lea owner is illegal, report to committee.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Livio Korobase

[Phil Deakins]

4 minutes ago, Shamara Henley said:

The sims are owned by people who pay for it...  in my opinion, it is kind of normal if they are part of the committee no matter what.

My understanding is that the sims are owned by LL, and nobody pays them for them. It may be that users' names are stated as the owners and, if that's the case, then it'll be the method used to facilitate the artists. But none of them pay for the sims. That's my understanding, anyway.

[Livio Korobase]

4 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

My understanding is that the sims are owned by LL, and nobody pays them for them.

Yes, you are right. If your proposal is accepted, you become for 6 months owner of a sim. Then the committee kick you out

Edited November 21, 2017 by Livio Korobase

[Shamara Henley]

Lap just corrected what he told me. Nobody OWNs the LEA.

LaPiscean Liberty: Patti and I "own" the sims as I told you- but they are really more of a stewardship-or a trust-LL trusts that we will manage them for the artists so they can use them for short periods of time and then when they finish their grant periods they return them to us so that the next group of artists are able to use the sims

Edited November 21, 2017 by Shamara Henley

[apw9900]

Actually no one is making up lies in this thread.

 

At the LEA website it says: "The LEA is run and organized by users of Second Life, with resources generously donated by Linden Lab."
And in the LEA blog it says: "The Linden Endowment of the Arts is an official Linden Community Partnership program (...)"

 

Neither on their website, nor on the SL wikipage or in the LEA blog is any word about private ownership of LEA.

 

We are just relating to the public information provided by LEA.

 

(added) LaPiscean has only been a committee member for the last 5 years according to what LEA publish on their site.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Solo Linden
Sharing IMs without consent is a violation.

[Shamara Henley]

Lap just corrected what he told me. Nobody OWNs the LEA.

LaPiscean Liberty: Patti and I "own" the sims as I told you- but they are really more of a stewardship-or a trust-LL trusts that we will manage them for the artists so they can use them for short periods of time and then when they finish their grant periods they return them to us so that the next group of artists are able to use the sims

Edited November 21, 2017 by Shamara Henley

[apw9900]

This is getting more and more funny and interesting :-D

[Chic Aeon]

3 hours ago, Dekka Raymaker said:

I would like to defend it more, but my experience of the LEA is six years old, so I don't know what as happened in that time. All I can end on is that Linden Lab doesn't have any need to keep these 20 sims available for free for customers to use, so I am sure if you complain enough the easiest option for LL would be to shut it down.

One last thing about Art in Second Life, some avatars who think they are good artists are actually really crap, filling a 20k prim with photographs isn't going to get you a sim.

Agreed and agreed. I was never reimbursed from Linden Lab for any expenses when I ran the Machinima Open Studio Project for three years. All the goods were mine, purchased, or from blogger samples. There were certainly expenses. Since the sim was always in use, much like the Artist Sandbox, I felt that I was contributing to the good of the art community. Who knew I was not?   

 

And while not going into any details, there ARE (or WERE during my three years anyway) applications which fall short of any kind of interesting theme. So if the folks complaining are the ones without much vision  -- or the ability to EXPRESS that vision so that others can understand what they want to do -- then yes, they will likely not be considered viable candidates. I can only speak to what "I" thought was a worthy proposal, not how others look at things, but for me it was all about the idea --- NOT the resume or even "the talent" which of course is a very objective thing. 

 

EDIT: and just to be clear on the land ownership issue as it got pretty messy in the thread.

LAP and Patti "own" the sims on paper. In actuality they are the CARETAKERS of the sims and have to top level of land rights. They don't use the sims, they only pass them on to the AIRS artists each round. The artists are THEN the owners of the land and have the rights on their own. There are a few things they cannot do, but not many. 

 

AND another addition as I read along.   

There WERE tip jars on the AIRS sims at the beginning. They were abandoned and are not available for use by the participants now. This happened before I left so about two plus years ago. You can READ THE COVENANT in the land tab and see this. If there are tip jars still on LEA land or ANY ITEM BEING SOLD for more than $0, then that is wrong and should be reported.  [If anyone feels the current committee members are ignoring them -- like the OP -- then feel free to send me a notecard with the name of the person braking the rules and the SLURL to the tip jar or objects for sale and I will happily pass the info along.]

 

Artist CAN place a sign to their inworld gallery or other places that they sell there work. Again, this is public record and in the covenant as well as the rules recipients agree to when applying. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Chic Aeon

[Livio Korobase]

1 hour ago, Shamara Henley said:

Lap just corrected what he told me. Nobody OWNs the LEA.

I don't understand where is the problem. LEA is a Estate, with a estate owner (in this case, a group of persons). Never rented a place in SL? when you rent, you become owner. Each LEA sim have a covenant, is simple to read... is the same than a TOS. And some members from the so called committee take care of sims, maybe because they have time do do and/or they are able to do. As i said before, for example, the tip jar question is exlained i this covenant:
 *Objects that allow payments of any kind are not permitted on LEA land.  This includes vendors selling objects, objects set for sale for anything more than L$0, and general tip jars.  You may hand out landmarks to other places where your art is available for purchase, or other places where people can tip or donate money.  You may, however, set out a tip jar for specific performers for a one time event or performance for the duration of that event or performance. Please note that the LEA organization itself does not accept donations or payments of any kind from anyone".

As many other details, explaining the work of the committee members.

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Livio Korobase said:

Yes, you are right. If your proposal is accepted, you become for 6 months owner of a sim. Then the committee kick you out

Actually you CAN reapply for a second term LOL. No guarantee that you will get in again of course, and you cannot STAY on the same sim. Artists (unless this has changed recently ) are not allowed to receive an AIRS grant more than two times in a row. 

 

And I am going off to do something FUN NOW.  

 

[Livio Korobase]

1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

Actually you CAN reapply for a second term LOL. No guarantee that you will get in again of course, and you cannot STAY on the same sim. Artists (unless this has changed recently ) are not allowed to receive an AIRS grant more than two times in a row.

Yes? I don't know, maybe is happened. I know only one case, a group work expanded by 6 months in the same sim. But ok, i never looked who take what and when with attention.

[apw9900]

Looks like the thread is going a bit off topic.

 

It has never been about money, tip jars, long working hours or potential financial compensation for being a member of the LEA Committee.

 

My post was about the LEA Committee that, according to the LEA Bylaws, hasn't been competent to transact business for two reasons:

 

1) For more than a year there has been less than 7 members of the LEA Committee. The Bylaws states that there must be a minimum of 7 members.
2) Three (3) members of the LEA Commitee has exceeded the two term policy stated in the LEA Bylaws.

 

Hence, every decision made by the LEA Committee for more than a year has been invalid.

 

But, some might say, they changed the bylaws last year so everything is fine now.

 

The LEA Committee might have done so, but when doing so one of the members of the committee had exceeded his term by 2 years and was (and still is) a member of the committee when the decision to change the bylaws was made.

 

Hence, that decision too is invalid.

 

That's what my post is about.

Edited November 21, 2017 by apw9900
typo

[Chic Aeon]

40 minutes ago, Livio Korobase said:

Yes? I don't know, maybe is happened. I know only one case, a group work expanded by 6 months in the same sim. But ok, i never looked who take what and when with attention.

Yes I remember one case where people kept the same sim as it was a huge build and an ongoing project with some RL tragedy in the mix, but there have been many creators that reapplied with NEW projects and were accepted again. :D.   

 

[Dekka Raymaker]

To reiterate, the sims are owned wholly by Linden Lab.

Some committee members, not all, have ownership of the sims for the purpose of running those sims as caretakers. 

When a sim is given to an artist for their use, they are given ownership of that sim, just like renting a private space on any sim.

There are no rewards for being a committee member, they give their time freely. You have to be committed too, there are certain days and times you have to be there to do the job, or make sure someone covers for you.

Committee members are less likely to be offered a sim to have as their own, if that's not now the case, it should be. However, at some point in their SL life if they have a good proposal for an art sim, there is no reason why they shouldn't be awarded one.

No one is suppose to make money on a LEA sim, no selling, no tip jars. Freebies are allowed and encouraged. I actually believe more artists should award visitors with some full perms gifts, as a learning tool and to encourage more building in SL, but that's my personal belief.

Nothing is perfect. Criticism should be welcomed and if the LEA committee can improve from this, then all the better. However, this argument appears to have been started with another agenda in mind.

If you have a complaint, then surely you should know how you would like it to be resolved. What do you want? If you can't answer that, shut up and go away.

 

[Dekka Raymaker]

18 minutes ago, apw9900 said:

Looks like the thread is going a bit off topic.

 

It has never been about money, tip jars, long working hours or potential financial compensation for being a member of the LEA Committee.

 

My post was about the LEA Committee that, according to the LEA Bylaws, hasn't been competent to transact business for two reasons:

 

1) For more than a year there has been less than 7 members of the LEA Committee. The Bylaws states that there must be a minimum of 7 members.
2) Three (3) members of the LEA Commitee has exceeded the two term policy stated in the LEA Bylaws.

 

Hence, every decision made by the LEA Committee for more than a year has been invalid.

 

But, some might say, they changed the bylaws last year so everything is fine now.

 

The LEA Committee might have done so, but when doing so one of the members of the committee had exceeded his term by 2 years and was (and still is) a member of the committee when the decision to change the bylaws was made.

 

Hence, that decision too is invalid.

 

That's what my post is about.

So what do you want to happen then?