Race Play

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

actually its a joke but since its not pg i'm not gonna try and write a convoluted version to avoid the censors

Sorry, BilliJo. I should have been clearer: I caught that you were being "jokey," and wasn't suggesting that you were seriously advocating this. I was speaking of the thing itself. 

Is this an actual "thing"? Or is it just an edgy 4Chan-ish meme? Because, if the former (remembering again that I'm not talking about role play, or SL), then surely it really is a form of rape.

Sorry, I know this is a derail of what is, in some regards, a very interesting and problematic thread. Just curious, really.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Sorry, BilliJo. I should have been clearer: I caught that you were being "jokey," and wasn't suggesting that you were seriously advocating this. I was speaking of the thing itself. 

Is this an actual "thing"? Or is it just an edgy 4Chan-ish meme? Because, if the former (remembering again that I'm not talking about role play, or SL), then surely it really is a form of rape.

Sorry, I know this is a derail of what is, in some regards, a very interesting and problematic thread. Just curious, really.

How exactly is having consensual sex with your partner and telling them "your sister does it better" in mid- coitus, rape? My wife died laughing as she knew i would never touch her sister. 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

My wife died laughing.

That might be involuntary manslaughter.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How exactly is having consensual sex with your partner and telling them "your sister does it better" in mid- coitus, rape? My wife died laughing as she knew i would never touch her sister. 

 

Drake, that sounds rather sad!

One of the reasons I've never given D/s a serious try is that I know I'd be doubled over with laughter 30 seconds in. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Drake, that sounds rather sad!

One of the reasons I've never given D/s a serious try is that I know I'd be doubled over with laughter 30 seconds in. 

That is however what a Rodeo **** is.. Wait till you start and then whisper something about a female sibling/cousin and hold on as long as you can.. 

I would be willing to bet the  real reason is you are nether Dom nor sub... 

ETA.. You didn't answer my question... How is that rape? 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Drake1 Nightfire

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I would be willing to bet the  real reason is you are nether Dom nor sub... 

Well, yeah. Precisely. What did you think I meant?

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

That is however what a Rodeo **** is.. Wait till you start and then whisper something about a female sibling/cousin and hold on as long as you can.. 

[...]

ETA.. You didn't answer my question... How is that rape? 

I should have thought that was rather obvious. Assuming that this is NOT consensual role play (i.e., your partner isn't just pretending, by mutual consent and knowledge, to be outraged), then she clearly wants you off her. In other words, she's withdrawn her consent. And if you don't oblige, well . . . that's pretty much the definition of rape, actually.

[Dillon Levenque]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, yeah. Precisely. What did you think I meant?

I should have thought that was rather obvious. Assuming that this is NOT consensual role play (i.e., your partner isn't just pretending, by mutual consent and knowledge, to be outraged), then she clearly wants you off her. In other words, she's withdrawn her consent. And if you don't oblige, well . . . that's pretty much the definition of rape, actually.

Lordy, after all this it turns out there actually was a redeeming reason for this thread that would not die (and included more personal aggro than probably the whole rest of this section altogether) to continue: it dragged Scylla back in here. Very nice to see you, Ms. Rhiadra.

[Madelaine McMasters]

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

One of the reasons I've never given D/s a serious try is that I know I'd be doubled over with laughter 30 seconds in. 

Had you tried it with me, it'd have been 15 seconds.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

50 minutes ago, Dillon Levenque said:

Lordy, after all this it turns out there actually was a redeeming reason for this thread that would not die (and included more personal aggro than probably the whole rest of this section altogether) to continue: it dragged Scylla back in here. Very nice to see you, Ms. Rhiadra.

Oh, Dillon . . . I'm sooooooo pathetically predictable, aren't I? So easy to bait. 

Actually, I was really most attracted to this thread by the concept of what (for want of an easier term) one might term "race bending," because, as a committed immersionist (at least in theory, if not in practice), I am uncomfortable with the idea. But I instead found myself tripped up (and frankly kind of horrified) by this "rodeo f***ing" thing. I'm still not sure if it's a real practice, or just a bit of idiocy dreamed up years ago on Something Awful or 4Chan. It's hard to believe it would actually work as described, to be honest. Anyway, to a humourless Feminazi such as myself, it's like waving a red flag at a bull.

But (to return the compliment), if my appearance here accomplishes nothing more than affording me the opportunity to hear from you, then it was time well wasted!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

30 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Had you tried it with me, it'd have been 15 seconds.

It's almost worth the experiment . . . 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

I observed some interracial roleplay last nigth, it was tiresome and annoying, but  I won't ascribe evil motives or racist intent.

Y'all have a nice day

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I observed some interracial roleplay last nigth, it was tiresome and annoying, but  I won't ascribe evil motives or racist intent.

I'm not sure that "evil motives" or "racist intent" have much to do with it.

The point of culturally-induced racism (or sexism, or homophobia, or whatever) is that it's embedded in the way that we think, and is most frequently unconscious. Someone who clutches her purse a little tighter when a man of colour walks by isn't necessarily responding consciously or with "intent," and certainly not with "evil motives," but it is racist nonetheless. I think, myself, that limiting one's concerns to those with "evil motives or racist intent -- NeoNazis, for instance, or members of the KKK -- is in some ways a form of avoidance, because they are easy and identifiable targets. Most of us don't have to think very hard to condemn outright racists (unless, apparently, one is the President of the US?), and it generally requires, I assume, little in the way of self-reflection. In fact, that kind of "anti-racist" action is very reassuring: we can feel good about ourselves because we don't wear white hoods or have swastikas tattooed on our arms.

The most pervasive, insidious, and ultimately dangerous kind of racism isn't signaled by flags, or placards, or memes, or fascist signs: it's unconscious, built into the assumptions we were educated to accept. And it's in all of us (yes, even me). Maybe "virtue" doesn't reside in not "being racist," but rather in KNOWING that one is racist, and consciously correcting that tendency through self-reflection and acts of generosity, kindness, and inclusivity?

In that context, some might argue that any kind of "race bending" (or interracial role play) is bound, almost by definition, to be racist, even if that is not the intent, because in representing others we are enacting and reinforcing our own unconscious stereotypes. We are telling others what they are "really" like, in our own minds.

That's why we try (or should try) to avoid things like kiddie Hallowe'en costumes that represent stereotypical "Indians," or "Chinese," or "Gypsy." I don't think we worry that the kids wearing these have evil motives or racist intent. But they are reinforcing and imposing upon others racist stereotypes without even knowing it.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Pamela Galli]

We all make generalizations, and I agree that we should recognize and consciously discard them. That includes regions as well as races , religions, and ethnicities. Alabama, for example, is not monolithic, all residents should not be tarred with the same brush.

We shall overcome. 

[Innula Zenovka]

I've not read the whole of this thread, so forgive me if it's been covered already, but some of the Adult "race-play" regions I've seen are based on a whole heap of very unpleasant stereotypes about race and gender.    

[Madelaine McMasters]

8 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

All residents should not be tarred with the same brush.

I've a cabinet in the basement, filled entirely with brushes. Enough for all of you. And some of you will need rollers.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Madelaine McMasters

[Scylla Rhiadra]

20 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

We all make generalizations, and I agree that we should recognize and consciously discard them. That includes regions as well as races , religions, and ethnicities. Alabama, for example, is not monolithic, all residents should not be tarred with the same brush.

We shall overcome. 

Right now, there may well be someone whose fingers are trembling over the keyboard, itching to type "Libtard," or "PC," or something equally dismissive in response to some of these posts. But your point is exactly right: that's not a tendency that's limited to the Right. I have many progressive friends who will dismiss out of hand pronouncements with which they disagree by labeling the source a "fascist," or "conservative." 

Identifying a cultural tendency -- Alabama does have a distinctive political culture that is very conservative; progressives sometimes do have a tendency to want to shut down debate through reference to a form of self-defined ethical superiority -- is one thing. Dismissing individuals by simply identifying them as part of cultural stereotype is stupid, lazy, and intellectually dishonest, whether it's coming from the Left or the Right.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Madelaine McMasters]

27 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Someone who clutches her purse a little tighter when a man of colour walks by isn't necessarily responding consciously or with "intent," and certainly not with "evil motives," but it is racist nonetheless.

Absolutely, and I'm guilty as charged, though this reaction is location dependent. When in college, I rarely walked the campus (downtown Milwaukee) at night without friends at my side, preferably big males. The unfortunate truth in this is that the stereotype that has me clutching my purse is backed by statistics. And that's the pernicious positive feedback loop of negativity that we must all consciously try to break.

The neighbor couple across the road from me are black. He's from Jamaica and a business consultant, she's from Detroit and a lawyer. Their grown kids are engineers. She's more likely to clutch her purse in downtown Milwaukee than I am, entirely because she's already had one stolen there. Those two are less charitable towards inner city blacks than I am. They voted for Trump and tease me about being a bleeding heart independent.

"We faced the same discrimination they did, what's their excuse?"
"Yeah, we had the talk with our kids. They know how to behave around police. This is the way it is, we deal with it and move on."

A few years ago, I was with my neighbor when he was clearly the target of racial discrimination. I was incensed. He thought I was over reacting.

Sometimes I'm wishy-washy for good reason, or no reason. I wish I could tell the difference.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Absolutely, and I'm guilty as charged, though this reaction is location dependent. When in college, I rarely walked the campus (downtown Milwaukee) at night without friends at my side, preferably big males. The unfortunate truth in this is that the stereotype that has me clutching my purse is backed by statistics. And that's the pernicious positive feedback loop of negativity that we must all consciously try to break.

The neighbor couple across the road from me are black. He's from Jamaica and a business consultant, she's from Detroit and a lawyer. Their grown kids are engineers. She's more likely to clutch her purse in downtown Milwaukee than I am, entirely because she's already had one stolen there. Those two are less charitable towards inner city blacks than I am. They voted for Trump and tease me about being a bleeding heart independent.

"We faced the same discrimination they did, what's their excuse?"
"Yeah, we had the talk with our kids. They know how to behave around police. This is the way it is, we deal with it and move on."

A few years ago, I was with my neighbor when he was clearly the target of racial discrimination. I was incensed. He thought I was over reacting.

Sometimes I'm wishy-washy for good reason, or no reason. I wish I could tell the difference.

Yes, this, totally.

Sometimes I worry that I'm over-solicitous in my sensitivities to discrimination. Not every "victim" wants to be identified as such: in fact, most don't because it's disempowering. I try to be "positive" in response to the garbage I see happening around me, but mostly I'm cautious because I don't think other people want me to tell their stories for them.

There's another odd effect too. Like many (most?) women, I can feel nervous or even afraid in certain contexts, and I've occasionally (rarely, but still . . .) done the key-clutching thing at night while crossing dark parking lots and such. I remember on one occasion thinking, as a guy who was walking behind me on the sidewalk passed me hurriedly, that my nervousness and unease was, in some ways, another form of gendered discrimination: I was assuming that the mere fact that he was a male made him at least a potential threat. It made me think about ways in which I was guilty of sexist stereotypes. And wonder if he noticed my discomfort, and felt belittled or insulted or upset by it? 

[Pamela Galli]

9 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

that the stereotype that has me clutching my purse is backed by statistics. And that's the pernicious positive feedback loop of negativity that we must all consciously try to break.

 

Exactly. That group x is statistically more likely to do or think Y does not mean that this individual does. 

I happen to live in a very large state that gets slandered a lot based on generalizations, and it is annoying. It is outrageous that whole races, religions, ethnicities have to endure it wherever they go.

[Pamela Galli]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, this, totally.

Sometimes I worry that I'm over-solicitous in my sensitivities to discrimination. Not every "victim" wants to be identified as such: in fact, most don't because it's disempowering. I try to be "positive" in response to the garbage I see happening around me, but mostly I'm cautious because I don't think other people want me to tell their stories for them.

There's another odd effect too. Like many (most?) women, I can feel nervous or even afraid in certain contexts, and I've occasionally (rarely, but still . . .) done the key-clutching thing at night while crossing dark parking lots and such. I remember on one occasion thinking, as a guy who was walking behind me on the sidewalk passed me hurriedly, that my nervousness and unease was, in some ways, another form of gendered discrimination: I was assuming that the mere fact that he was a male made him at least a potential threat. It made me think about ways in which I was guilty of sexist stereotypes. And wonder if he noticed my discomfort, and felt belittled or insulted or upset by it? 

When it  Comes to being prudent in regard to one’s own safety, I can’t criticize anyone who makes generalizations  that might save their lives. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Pamela Galli

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

When it  Comes to being prudent in regard to one’s own safety, I can’t criticize anyone who makes generalizations  that might save their lives. 

Oh, agreed. I don't think it's going to stop me from doing it. Fear is a powerful motivating force. But it does sadden me.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure that "evil motives" or "racist intent" have much to do with it.

The point of culturally-induced racism (or sexism, or homophobia, or whatever) is that it's embedded in the way that we think, and is most frequently unconscious. Someone who clutches her purse a little tighter when a man of colour walks by isn't necessarily responding consciously or with "intent," and certainly not with "evil motives," but it is racist nonetheless. I think, myself, that limiting one's concerns to those with "evil motives or racist intent -- NeoNazis, for instance, or members of the KKK -- is in some ways a form of avoidance, because they are easy and identifiable targets. Most of us don't have to think very hard to condemn outright racists (unless, apparently, one is the President of the US?), and it generally requires, I assume, little in the way of self-reflection. In fact, that kind of "anti-racist" action is very reassuring: we can feel good about ourselves because we don't wear white hoods or have swastikas tattooed on our arms.

The most pervasive, insidious, and ultimately dangerous kind of racism isn't signaled by flags, or placards, or memes, or fascist signs: it's unconscious, built into the assumptions we were educated to accept. And it's in all of us (yes, even me). Maybe "virtue" doesn't reside in not "being racist," but rather in KNOWING that one is racist, and consciously correcting that tendency through self-reflection and acts of generosity, kindness, and inclusivity?

In that context, some might argue that any kind of "race bending" (or interracial role play) is bound, almost by definition, to be racist, even if that is not the intent, because in representing others we are enacting and reinforcing our own unconscious stereotypes. We are telling others what they are "really" like, in our own minds.

That's why we try (or should try) to avoid things like kiddie Hallowe'en costumes that represent stereotypical "Indians," or "Chinese," or "Gypsy." I don't think we worry that the kids wearing these have evil motives or racist intent. But they are reinforcing and imposing upon others racist stereotypes without even knowing it.

Even Jessie Jackson said once that he breathes a sigh of relief when he hears footsteps behind him at night and turns and see its a white man.

Quit trying to wring that last drop of "racism" out of your soul, it will end up doing you more harm than good.

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by BilliJo Aldrin
dropped a few words

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Even Jessie Jackson said once that he breathes a sigh of relief when he hears footsteps behind him at night and turns and see its a white man.

I'm entirely unsurprised, because these things are general throughout our culture. It's impossible not to be infected by them. I know that in my field it's frequently the older, established women who are the least likely to serve as allies or mentors for younger women. It's weird, but probably easily explicable on a psychological level?

12 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Quit trying to wring that last drop of "racism" out of your soul, it will end up doing you more harm than good.

Oh, I'll never manage to rid myself of it, and I don't really try.

Mostly, I just work to ensure that my biases and prejudices aren't expressed in my everyday interactions with people; in that sense, it's nothing more than an extension of my desire to be, well, a "nice person." Feminism asserted a half century ago that "the personal is political," and I believe that's true in this way also: making a "real difference" is most effectively done in treating other people well, regardless of who they are.

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I know that in my field it's frequently the older, established women who are the least likely to serve as allies or mentors for younger women. It's weird, but probably easily explicable on a psychological level?

Psychological and cultural/generational. Steve Jobs, in his wonderful Stanford commencement address, said:

"Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new."

You and I share a little sadness over our increasing ability to be unbothered by things. We are on the cusp of being older, established women. If we're ultimately unable to avoid becoming the least likely to serve as allies or mentors for the young, I can still take comfort in the knowledge that death will clear us out.

;-).

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Psychological and cultural/generational. Steve Jobs, in his wonderful Stanford commencement address, said:

"Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new."

You and I share a little sadness over our increasing ability to be unbothered by things. We are on the cusp of being older, established women. If we're ultimately unable to avoid becoming the least likely to serve as allies or mentors for the young, I can still take comfort in the knowledge that death will clear us out.

;-).

If you promise to poke me in the ribs whenever I appear to be too blasé or unfeeling about the travails and hardships of our juniors, I'll promise to do the same to you. (Unless there's somewhere else you'd prefer to be poked, of course.)

Deal?