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So, for example, Processing $5000,  previously cost  $15, now costs $25, in the future it will cost $125.  Sansar looks like a flop, so take it out on LL creators?  And yes Linden Lab knows

That gives me a poor excuse for a digression slightly away from the great news about increased fees. (Don't worry, I'll get back on topic at the end )   I've spent quite a bit of time on the

I'm so excited to start earning even less!   Thank you LL!!

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4 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

Yeah, apparently LL is doing it wrong, or this conversation wouldn't be taking place

It's doing it wrong because they're using an antiquated commissions model, imo. I'll compare it with the last few years change in commissions model in my country when it comes to real estate market with an intermediary agency. It used to be a 4%commission on the sale price on the seller side only, with the buyer paying only the net price. In 2014, the real estate market was stagnating so much, that agencies were closing or laying off quite a lot of people, because sellers were folding over private transactions more and more to avoid the  combined hit from properties devaluation and a high commission rate. Long story short, agencies started shifting the commissions on both sides, with a max total rate still at 4%, 2% each side of the transaction. Agencies were still making the same amounts of money but the burden was more acceptable, and the market restarted to slowly grow. 

Is it so difficult for LL to add the 5% commission raise on the buyer's side on the checkout page? I mean, the amount of L$ per USD has increased significantly on purchase in the last year, wouldn't it be a more balanced act instead of dropping the burden always on the same side of a transaction, which is already suffering for the L$ devaluation that has taken place instead of having an advantage like who purchases currency? 

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3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Is it so difficult for LL to add the 5% commission raise on the buyer's side on the checkout page? I mean, the amount of L$ per USD has increased significantly on purchase in the last year, wouldn't it be a more balanced act instead of dropping the burden always on the same side of a transaction, which is already suffering for the L$ devaluation that has taken place instead of having an advantage like who purchases currency? 

I actually like this idea. It's basically the situation I used as an example in another thread where I said "if everybody raised their prices across MP, I'd happily pay it." LL imposing a tax on the buyer at the checkout page is basically the same thing (from the buyer's perspective), and it nicely mirrors RL transactions.

Though I'm not sure if that means the flat fee for buying L$ should be lowered at the same time, it might still be a net positive for them to convert some of that flat fee into a tax.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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22 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Though I'm not sure if that means the flat fee for buying L$ should be lowered at the same time

it should be removed totally .. it's a bit absurd to pay to get L$, and than pay to use the same L$.
The easiest is how it goes now, a bit like the tax system in europe; the seller collects the x amount VAT and hands it over to the Government / LL.
If it's not enough i'd say to raise the selling / process credit fees, but with direct banking, no PP or Skrill in between anymore.

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1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

The easiest is how it goes now, a bit like the tax system in europe; the seller collects the x amount VAT and hands it over to the Government / LL

Then once someone sets the price on the MP listing, a 5% should be added on top of it automatically and that's what the seller collects for LL. How it is now, between double fee and L$devaluation, exchange rate and process rate, LL is eating up the majority of a merchant income while the buyer is getting charged just a flat rate regardless of the amount they purchase, with a better exchange rate per dollar. This is unbalanced as heck. 

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2 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Then once someone sets the price on the MP listing, a 5% should be added on top of it automatically and that's what the seller collects for LL. How it is now, between double fee and L$devaluation, exchange rate and process rate, LL is eating up the majority of a merchant income while the buyer is getting charged just a flat rate regardless of the amount they purchase, with a better exchange rate per dollar. This is unbalanced as heck. 

it would only be fair, when the comsumer can skip the selling fees, in that case the balance is fair... comsumers pay for consuming, and the merchants for their withdraw of it.

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On 1/3/2020 at 1:57 PM, Chic Aeon said:
On 1/3/2020 at 1:20 PM, Luna Bliss said:

What do you guess caused such a drop, and so fast!

Well the general RL ECONOMY likely plays into the scenario.

It is likely a lot of things. 

Yes, despite the increase in jobs the RL economy is actually not good. You know the common joke that pretty much sums it up:

"for sure there's more jobs...and I had to take 3 of them to survive!"

Do those outside the US know that half the US population lives on $30,000 per year or less, and that 40 million live in poverty, and that homelessness is over 500,000 and climbing?

I know in Inworldz a strange thing happened, and it was very sudden like here in SL...almost overnight most people stopped selling much at all, whereas before sales were pretty good. I don't know if the place stopped growing, or if suddenly everybody was "full up" and didn't need anything anymore.

I continue to see the prices of content go down as merchants undercut, and of course that's going to cause a drop in profit overall.

I wonder what would have happened had LL not gone public and forced into 'Muricas infinite growth paradigm of the corporations leading us into climate disaster. As goes the middle class in 'Murica so goes the middle class in SL, it seems, as the middle class gets hollowed out and squeezed more and more in both worlds.

 

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On 12/31/2019 at 2:20 PM, Tonk Tomcat said:

So, increasing the fees to the creators is completly at the wrong end. I really spent every day per week from morning till night in creating new stuff. At the end, it didn't pay anymore right now, and the increased fees does not help at all. I'm doing this fullltime since 11 years.

For what it's worth,Tonk, I hear your frustration @ earning less and less with no end in sight while working from morning till night for bean wages, and rest assured I have no charts and numbers to "help" you.

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

I know in Inworldz a strange thing happened, and it was very sudden like here in SL...almost overnight most people stopped selling much at all, whereas before sales were pretty good. I don't know if the place stopped growing, or if suddenly everybody was "full up" and didn't need anything anymore.

 

I never did get the "real" story on that. I had exited long before that event even though my products were still at my friend's sim. I can't remember if I was selling much  then or not; hadn't really been paying attention. And by then the Marketplace that HAD been was no more so that was a longer term issue but likely part of the problem. I "imagined" that it would have been clear had I been reading the VERY VERY VERY TOXIC forums (which I had exited long before I exited IW :D).   I asked my friend with the mall but she never ventured to the forums and said the same as you --- it just happened overnight and tons of creators left. 

 

Happily (for me) it was never really about making USDs although that was certainly part of my personal "game" and it was nice to have the extra cash.  I have noted a fair amount of well-known brands (not necessarily H and G) downsizing like I have just done -- and sometimes even smaller than a  4096.  So that's part of the story too. Trying to lower costs to make up the shortfall.

 

Things are even worse over in Sansar so we can be thankful it is not that bad here anyway.  

That being said,  IF a lot of creators are selling less (and not talking about it :D) THEN that increase in fees isn't going to help The Lab all that much. It could easily just balance out --- or there could even be a new shortfall  judging from my figures and yours.   Stores are having 50 percent and 75 percent storewide sales  -- many many more than in past years.  So it is a downward spiral.  In order to get more FROM the economy it seems like LL needs to do something to help bolster the economy first.  I am thinking that probably won't happen.     

 

Back on the Sansar topic there are a BUNCH of new creators over there (some of which know enough about creating not to be "new") and I have been wondering where they have come from. No names that I recognize but they certainly could have chosen to create under a new brand.  I wonder if there is a slight migration going on. They will likely be very disappointed, especially considering the exchange rate on cashing out for new folks (yikes).  Talk about working for pennies :D. 

 

Anyway I am spending more time in RL which is likely a good thing. I do miss creating though.    

 

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Let's assume for the sake of argument that commercial entrepeneurship in SL is a good thing. Some may argue it isn't and that is a valid point but not relevant to this discussion. Linden Lab wants commercial entrepeneurs in SL, if there weren't any, they wouldn't earn any commissions at all. They've actually done even more (although probably not on purpose) to supress non-commercial content creators than commercial ones.

I think we have to try to see this from both the merchants' and LL's point of view.

The entrepeneurs couldn't care less about percentages. The question that matters is: how much time, money and effort do I have to put into it and how much do I get in return? There is no universal percentage rate that is right here, neither in RL nor in SL, it depends on several factors.

There are probably some SL entrepeneurs who make good money (I think mostly big landowners but also some merchants) but most are already at their pain threshold. The ones who make a living from SL barely makes enough to get by, the ones who only want to finance their own SL activities barely make enough to pay for their tier and what they buy themselves. This is inevitable in a declining market, people cut their margins to keep volume up until they reach the limit of what is sustainable. Once they are there, it only takes a minute turn for the worse before they have to give up.

Linden Lab is fighting to keep their own revenue in a declining market, we have to aknowledge that. Unfortunately, they are way behind. They spent the first 11 years with no budget control worth mentioning as the SL economy peaked and started to slide downwards. When they finally took heed, they found themselves stuck with bloated expenses and no easy way to cut down. An operation like Second Life is marvelously scaleable compared to most other businesses but you have to be willing and prepared to scale down when neccessary. Linden Lab wasn't. It took them six years to get out of denial and that was time they couldn't afford to loose.

LL is trying to cut costs now but since they're so far behind where they should have been, they have to do it in a rather heavy handed way. That is rather worrying because it is likely going to reduce the quality of their services, making it less attractive to their customers.

They are also of course trying to get more of the total SL revenue themselves at the expense of the independent entrepeneurs. This will reduce the total SL economy. Merchants and landowers who used to make a living from SL will leave when they can't anymore. Small scale merchants who used to finance their tiers through their sales will abandon their land. This will happen, there's no doubt about that, the only question is to what degree. Most likely LL will loose more than they gain from it, 5% of 20 millions is more than 10% of 5 millions after all. It's a very risky strategy and the fact that LL is going for it can only mean two things, either they have grossly miscalculated the situation or they are so desperate they have to try. In either case it's really worrying, probably the most worrying aspect of this.

Edited by ChinRey
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39 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do those outside the US know that half the US population lives on $30,000 per year or less,

do those in the US know that's a lot of money compared to most europeans?  .. the avarage for the "common man"  here is 30-36 k a year. And that average common man is not the one that works all day in a factory.
starting salaries for aged 21 and up is 21 K..
Not even starting about the taxes .. those are a lot higher here than yours.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

For what it's worth,Tonk, I hear your frustration @ earning less and less with no end in sight while working from morning till night for bean wages, and rest assured I have no charts and numbers to "help" you.

FYI, the only reason I'm bothering with numbers is because other people were bringing up numbers first and I'm only doing it to provide perspective (as did Tonk). The information I've given doesn't solve anything, but neither does exaggerating the effect. And when I say that, I'm not saying that these increases don't have an effect. They do, and it sucks to be the person riding that edge where you fall from profitable to unprofitable as is the case with Tonk.

The effect just isn't as catastrophic in the grand scale and that's the point I'm trying to reiterate on. 4% change in usable income over 3 years does not kill most of the creators on SL unless there's some freaky coincidence that a major portion of SL creators keep this as their full-time job (edit: not even full-time, but operating with little profit in general, such as using your store to pay for your store's tier) despite the obvious risks of riding that line. Incidentally:

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

The entrepeneurs couldn't care less about percentages. The question that matters is: how much time, money and effort do I have to put into it and how much do I get in return? There is no universal percentage rate that is right here, neither in RL nor in SL, it depends on several factors.

There are probably some SL entrepeneurs who make good money (I think mostly big landowners but also some merchants) but most are already at their pain threshold. The ones who make a living from SL barely makes enough to get by, the ones who only want to finance their own SL activities barely make enough to pay for their tier and what they buy themselves. This is inevitable in a declining market, people cut their margins to keep volume up until they reach the limit of what is sustainable. Once they are there, it only takes a minute turn for the worse before they have to give up.

This is a good explanation and I don't even disagree with it. I just can't wrap my head around the idea of hanging on to a sinking ship (content creation) when you're already feeling the pressure of it not working out, through no fault of your own. That level of risk management seems incomprehensible; financially irresponsible even. It may very well be that LL is equally irresponsible in their own ways, but I don't know enough to confidently comment on it and it wouldn't excuse anybody else.

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1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

but I don't know enough to confidently comment on it

This ^

You don't know enough about Tonk's situation, or others on the same sinking ship. Firstly, some people may have no choice but to hang on. Others, like myself, will give up putting in the effort. And really, how do you know Tonk isn't doing the same thing, and the drive is just no there anymore?

There aren't many people in this discussion, but there are many in the same boat, just not here talking about it.

2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Anyway I am spending more time in RL which is likely a good thing.

I am also spending more time in rl. At the moment I am binge watching Curb Your Enthusiasm. I still get that nagging thought that my break from SL work is over, and I should get back to it. And then there's RL housework that I usually don't prioritise, because SL work comes first - but now I'll do a thorough house cleaning and throw out all my old junk, and more exercise, and more time with family and so on.

SL will be a hobby again. Right now I'm slowly converting old prim items to mesh, when I feel like it.

If things continue to get worse I'll give up my homestead and just have a smaller block of land with rezzers to display items, and then finally no land at all.

I have noticed that there are a lot less people shopping inworld although prices are lower. People still prefer MP.

As for my decrease in profit, another reason could be this - my full perm plants are mainly purchased by other creators, so these sales would be affected by a general lack of enthusiasm due to decreased profit. This could be part of the explanation for me.

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

The entrepeneurs couldn't care less about percentages. The question that matters is: how much time, money and effort do I have to put into it and how much do I get in return?

This ^

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49 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

You don't know enough about Tonk's situation, or others on the same sinking ship. Firstly, some people may have no choice but to hang on. Others, like myself, will give up putting in the effort. And really, how do you know Tonk isn't doing the same thing, and the drive is just no there anymore?

There aren't many people in this discussion, but there are many in the same boat, just not here talking about it.

I don't need to know the specifics of Tonk's situation. I'm not talking about his situation. We've been over this in a previous thread, did you forget?

I'm also very aware that there are "many others" who are also affected. How many? Who knows, it's pretty hard to quantify. Hundreds? Out of how many? How do you define the demographic you're concerned about? All creators regardless of sales? Only full-timers with no other job? Something else? Your answer will differ from others.

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On 12/31/2019 at 3:47 PM, Alyona Su said:

Though the RL economy (in the U.S., anyway) was utter garbage during the previous administrations eight years and much improved now

 

31 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

On what planet?

I suggest we keep RL politics away from this thread.

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@Wulfie Reanimator Maybe you didn't read the posts that preceded Tonks post, and mine, but we were including our RL costs (tax, vat, paypal, computer, internet etc.) because it was in response to Alyona's post. She was talking about the full cost of doing business, where she was comparing SL to her RL business. Your response to Tonk, where you referred back to your earlier calculations, was out of context.

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I'm also very aware that there are "many others" who are also affected. How many? Who knows, it's pretty hard to quantify. Hundreds? Out of how many? How do you define the demographic you're concerned about? All creators regardless of sales? Only full-timers with no other job? Something else? Your answer will differ from others.

I don't understand this question. I am assuming there would be many others, more than likely. It is an educated guess. But I don't have numbers for you.

What I'm really concerned about is the survival of SL. I think we all are. But SL is no good to me without a steady profit stream. I'll get bored with it just as a hobby. It's ok for now, but I would never have been in SL for this long if not for the business profit.

My concern is that there may be many others feeling the same way.

 

5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I just can't wrap my head around the idea of hanging on to a sinking ship (content creation) when you're already feeling the pressure of it not working out, through no fault of your own. That level of risk management seems incomprehensible; financially irresponsible even. It may very well be that LL is equally irresponsible in their own ways, but I don't know enough to confidently comment on it and it wouldn't excuse anybody else.

Who were you talking about, ....hanging onto sinking ships? I assumed you were talking about Tonk, but if not who. I responded by saying people may not have a choice.

 

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I don't need to know the specifics of Tonk's situation. I'm not talking about his situation

 

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17 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I suggest instead of chiding, just report. That’s what I do.

Sorry if you took it as chiding. It was only intended as a discreet reminder. There's no need to bother the moderators with it. We're all responsible adults although we can all get a bit carried away every now and then - I sure do myself. :)

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40 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Sorry if you took it as chiding. It was only intended as a discreet reminder. There's no need to bother the moderators with it. We're all responsible adults although we can all get a bit carried away every now and then - I sure do myself. :)

If someone says the sky is green, I am not going to let that assertion of “alternative facts” go unchallenged. Everyone has an obligation to defend the truth/ facts, whether they know it or not. 

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1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

What I'm really concerned about is the survival of SL. I think we all are. But SL is no good to me without a steady profit stream. I'll get bored with it just as a hobby. It's ok for now, but I would never have been in SL for this long if not for the business profit.

My concern is that there may be many others feeling the same way.

Unless The Lab pulls some bunnies out of it top hat I suspect we will have the answer by summer, if not before.  As I have said, I haven't talked to ANY creators who feel that they are doing WELL these days. There are likely some -- there simply must be, no?  -- I just don't know them :D.   I have no plans to leave, but "the game" has definitely changed for me since mid summer. 

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30 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

If someone says the sky is green, I am not going to let that assertion of “alternative facts” go unchallenged. Everyone has an obligation to defend the truth/ facts, whether they know it or not. 

What shade of green? Ever see seafoam green? That's kinda blue.

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2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

As I have said, I haven't talked to ANY creators who feel that they are doing WELL these days. There are likely some -- there simply must be, no?  -- I just don't know them :D.

People are usually more forthcoming to talk or hint about how much money they're making, if they talk about it at all, but not so much when things start to go bad. I know I felt a little hesitation when admitting my 40% drop in income. If those doing well would let us know, here in the forums, that would be a bit of reassurance . I know plenty of people read but don't post. But I guess those doing well might not care about this topic, and are too busy doing well.

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3 hours ago, Gadget Portal said:

What shade of green? Ever see seafoam green? That's kinda blue.

Is it? Homer described the sea as "wine-like" (and the sky as "bronze coloured"). Are you saying he was wrong???

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