Process Credit Fees Raised. Again.

[Lisa006 Baxton]

5 minutes ago, Nutria2016 said:

There are plenty of other services that send you the money INSTANTLY for a tiny fee. I don't understand why it takes these people an average of FOUR DAYS to process credit.

I usually get mine the next BUSINESS day. The only time I experience any kind of delay is during holidays or weekend. Would be nice to have an instant option in exchange for the HEFTY amount that is charged to process it tho. That's wishful thinking. 

[MalkinAmistery]

On 12/1/2019 at 7:46 AM, Lisa006 Baxton said:

I usually get mine the next BUSINESS day. The only time I experience any kind of delay is during holidays or weekend. Would be nice to have an instant option in exchange for the HEFTY amount that is charged to process it tho. That's wishful thinking. 

They certainly should be upping their game, considering I just got charged $20 to cash out $225 from SL to Paypal.  $10 from SL, and now Paypal jumping on the bandwagon and charging an increased $10 (since they and LL have been in bed for a very long time now).  This i RIDICULOUS!  We pay to buy the money, we pay to use the money, and we pay to cash out OUR OWN MONEY.  😡

[Branesergen]

I fail to see the issue lol This is the only "game" that I know of that you can use digital tools to make digital items to make a digital currency that can be cashed out for real life currency. I'll take 90% real money to do something I was gonna do anyway all day long. Man if i could cash out even 50% of the digital currency I've made in other games I'd be thrilled to death. Guess I'm missing something major cuz its really got people upset.

[Chic Aeon]

24 minutes ago, Branesergen said:

I fail to see the issue lol This is the only "game" that I know of that you can use digital tools to make digital items to make a digital currency that can be cashed out for real life currency. I'll take 90% real money to do something I was gonna do anyway all day long. Man if i could cash out even 50% of the digital currency I've made in other games I'd be thrilled to death. Guess I'm missing something major cuz its really got people upset.

Kitely in Opensim. Been around forever. Does a good job. I am still getting "residuals" after exiting three years ago. So SL is NOT the only place you can sell for real cash. There are others, just not ones I have been part of.   Sansar too of course although depending on how you figure it, they take something like 46 percent too.   

[Solar Legion]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:14 AM, MalkinAmistery said:

They certainly should be upping their game, considering I just got charged $20 to cash out $225 from SL to Paypal.  $10 from SL, and now Paypal jumping on the bandwagon and charging an increased $10 (since they and LL have been in bed for a very long time now).  This i RIDICULOUS!  We pay to buy the money, we pay to use the money, and we pay to cash out OUR OWN MONEY.  😡

The fees Linden Lab charges and the fees PayPal charges are two quite different things. PayPal has also been charging that particular fee for quite some time and they make it very clear that they will not charge more than ten dollars for an Instant Transfer (transfer using a Card instead of a Bank).

Welcome to banking in general.

[Rya Nitely]

On 12/27/2019 at 1:11 PM, Branesergen said:

Guess I'm missing something major....

Yes, you are. But I won't go through it all again, explaining what it takes to be a serious merchant who works for profit. It's already been discussed over and over again in other threads and probably here too.

[rasterscan]

It rankles that if I sell a product for 10 $L, LL now takes 2 $L of it, before the hike it was 1$L. Furthermore it is glaringly obvious LL has recently found a breadhead to harvest even more cash out of us. Painful days ahead, but if it keeps the game going another 16 years then I must suppose it's for the best.

Edited December 29, 2019 by rasterscan

[Alyona Su]

4 hours ago, rasterscan said:

if I sell a product for 10 $L, LL now takes 2 $L of it, before the hike it was 1$L

That's 20%. If it's true, then you should file a support ticket because I'm not seeing what you claim to be seeing. Either way, it's the cost of doing business. We either deal with it or stop doing business.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Rya Nitely]

18 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Either way, it's the cost of doing business. We either deal with it or stop doing business.

I don't know why you keep repeating this useless statement. It will never stop anyone from discussing fee increases, and it shouldn't.

For example, try telling China that increased tariffs are a 'cost of doing business, and to deal with it or stop doing business'. No business would just shut up and accept it without making a fuss. It's NOT the way business works. But yet you keep repeating that this is what we should do. Nobody ever will.

China will deal with it, and so will we in our own ways (or stop doing business) - so you are really stating the obvious, and it's not clever.

It's like you enjoy rubbing our noses in it.

[Elvina Ewing]

1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

It's like you enjoy rubbing our noses in it.

that's exactly why she is here on the Merchant forum in the first place. I think it is fairly obvious too. You will get used to it and stop noticing it eventually

[Alyona Su]

22 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

That's 20%. If it's true, then you should file a support ticket because I'm not seeing what you claim to be seeing. Either way, it's the cost of doing business. We either deal with it or stop doing business.

 

3 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

I don't know why you keep repeating this useless statement. It will never stop anyone from discussing fee increases, and it shouldn't.

For example, try telling China that increased tariffs are a 'cost of doing business, and to deal with it or stop doing business'. No business would just shut up and accept it without making a fuss. It's NOT the way business works. But yet you keep repeating that this is what we should do. Nobody ever will.

China will deal with it, and so will we in our own ways (or stop doing business) - so you are really stating the obvious, and it's not clever.

It's like you enjoy rubbing our noses in it.

It says much about your argument when you, very selectively, quote me out of context. Discussing it is one thing, whining about it is another. When someone proclaims an obvious falsity, they should be called out on it. The cost of doing business is what it is. You can roll your eyes at; I get it: facts are annoying.

1 hour ago, Elvina Ewing said:

that's exactly why she is here on the Merchant forum in the first place. I think it is fairly obvious too. You will get used to it and stop noticing it eventually

I am a merchant here, too. I just recognize the requisites of being one. Thus, if mentioning the facts of such is rubbing your nose into it, then I suppose that's what it is.

[Artorius Constantine]

On 12/1/2019 at 4:46 AM, Lisa006 Baxton said:

I usually get mine the next BUSINESS day. ...

I don't know what service you are using or the amounts involved but I haven't had a transfer hit in less than 3 business days in a long time and the average is 4.

I only had that (1 day transfers) happen for about 2 months, right after the previous rate hike that was supposedly for "Faster and better cash out turnaround", then it slowly drifted right back to 3 or 4 business days.

[Luna Bliss]

On 12/29/2019 at 7:50 AM, Alyona Su said:

On 12/29/2019 at 3:34 AM, rasterscan said:

if I sell a product for 10 $L, LL now takes 2 $L of it, before the hike it was 1$L

..... it's the cost of doing business. We either deal with it or stop doing business.

I doubt rasterscan could have figured that out on his own!  How wonderful that you are present to enlighten him!

[Luna Bliss]

5 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

I am a merchant here, too. I just recognize the requisites of being one.

Your MP store has nothing listed...

[Alwin Alcott]

43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Your MP store has nothing listed...

and yours old prim gazebo's so whats the problem..

it's only the good old Luna, Rya and Elvina threesome again .. as always spewing on the way how LL wants to create revenue, quit, go away or accept it.

[Arwen Serpente]

On 12/29/2019 at 4:34 AM, rasterscan said:

It rankles that if I sell a product for 10 $L, LL now takes 2 $L of it, before the hike it was 1$L. Furthermore it is glaringly obvious LL has recently found a breadhead to harvest even more cash out of us. Painful days ahead, but if it keeps the game going another 16 years then I must suppose it's for the best.

Hi there Rasterscan, I was curious about this so I tried it with an alt. The MP charged the correct amount - 1L commission on a 10L item.

Purchased on: December 30, 2019 11:26 AM PST

Buyer's Price (for delivered items): L$10

Distributions Total (for delivered items): L$0

Marketplace Commission (for delivered items): L$1

Your Earnings (for delivered items): L$9

This is the info in the MP Fee and Listing Policies:

SL MARKETPLACE FEES AND COMMISSIONS

FOR MARKETPLACE SELLERS:

Seller Sales Commissions

We charge SL Marketplace merchants a Commission for each sale that the seller makes (“Commission”). Commission rates are ten (10) percent of the listed price, rounded to the nearest Linden Dollar (L$).

So, if you are seeing 2L taken out on a 10L item, file a support ticket for sure!

 

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Your MP store has nothing listed...

Alyona Chernov is my alt.

[Rya Nitely]

I've been creating items, maintaining and updating items, and giving customer support since 2008. Until recently it consumed almost all of my spare time. I took so many days off rl work  due to all-nighters I either had to leave, reduce my hours, or give up working in SL. I lost my role as manager, and now I work 5 hours a day RL. This is the sacrifice I made - a job that paid very well - to work in SL. These were my choices, my cost of doing business, how I chose to deal with it. I now have 3 stores under different names.

I really could go on and on and on about what it takes to be a serious merchant, but thanks for showing us your store and what you've achieved in SL as a merchant since 2006.

[OptimoMaximo]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Alyona Chernov is my alt.

Impressive 🤣

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Alyona Chernov is my alt.

Never trust your alts!

[Alyona Su]

17 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Never trust your alts!

She's an ugly, Beotch. LOL Buuuttt... I know better than to use her in the forums because governance. LOL But I don't keep my alt secret from anyone, either.

[Luna Bliss]

12 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I

Alyona, serious question...is there a price increase amount (and there have been many in recent months, and more are planned) where you would say "this has gone toooo far, LL is taking too much...they have made a mistake"?  What percentage would it need to arrive at....25%...50%....90%......100%. Where is the point when you would stop telling those upset by the fee increases to basically shut the hell up and get out if they don't like it? (although I have noted that you are telling people that in a nicer way in recent weeks).
I don't think you're trying to rub our noses in it as some have suggested...trying to hurt us even more than we are hurting from the fee increases....I simply don't see you as that mean. I really think the issue is that you can't cope with believing that LL could do anything wrong. I've never seen you criticize anything about them, and when a Linden addresses you personally well, you pretty much melt. Isn't this what the issue is really, and why you shut us complainers down again and again, that you have a very deep need to identify with and believe the all knowing eye is perfect and guiding us in its ultimate wisdom?

*You have said your motive is to correct what is not accurate, to be factual, but I don't see you correcting all the woo-woo frequently on the forum unless someone criticizes LL....so....?

Edited December 30, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[Alyona Su]

42 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Alyona, serious question...is there a price increase amount (and there have been many in recent months, and more are planned) where you would say "this has gone toooo far, LL is taking too much...they have made a mistake"?  What percentage would it need to arrive at....25%...50%....90%......100%. Where is the point when you would stop telling those upset by the fee increases to basically shut the hell up and get out if they don't like it? (although I have noted that you are telling people that in a nicer way in recent weeks).
I don't think you're trying to rub our noses in it as some have suggested...trying to hurt us even more than we are hurting from the fee increases....I simply don't see you as that mean. I really think the issue is that you can't cope with believing that LL could do anything wrong. I've never seen you criticize anything about them, and when a Linden addresses you personally well, you pretty much melt. Isn't this what the issue is really, and why you shut us complainers down again and again, that you have a very deep need to identify with and believe the all knowing eye is perfect and guiding us in its ultimate wisdom?

*You have said your motive is to correct what is not accurate, to be factual, but I don't see you correcting all the woo-woo frequently on the forum unless someone criticizes LL....so....?

That is a very fair question! 25% would be my breaking point and I'll explain why: I also ran a RL business for a time. There are taxes just for doing business called B&O (Business and Occupation) - this is a tax for doing nothing else other than calling yourself a business, it runs between 15% and 20% of your gross income, depending on the types of business, (not profits, total income) - it is different city-by-city, county by county and so on. If you have a storefront or office, you pay a tax to the city for that as well. I don't know what that is because I worked from home. Then there are the sales taxes, which I'm responsible for: these vary by city, county, state and stack on top of each other, where I am now it's about 11% - this is usually passed onto the customer. This doesn't even get into the costs and paperwork of licensing. If you are manufacturing goods, the only real reprieve is that you can buy the materials tax-free, but there's a lot of paperwork involved (so there's the cost of time and effort.)

So there's the 25% RL cost of doing business where I am and that is a tax on the gross revenue, not just profits. Thus, for me, that would be the point of reference.

Now with SL and Marketplace, one would have to balance the costs of doing business: there's the 10% "tax" on MP sales - which we can choose to pass onto the customer or not (If you looked at my MP - I have experimented by doing that: Then item selling for L$278 nets me L$250 - so far no one has batted an eye at that - though I get it for L$1,000+ items - it's a matter of scale). So one could say "Pay higher MP price, but lower price is in-world) - which means I have to maintain land for a place, there is that cost added to my costs of business.

So, I can take the 10% hit with MP only, or I take a higher hit by also maintaining the cost of an in-world location. Large-volume merchants can to this: they sell enough that they can maintain entire regions and thereby they can add the MP tax to their listing and say there is a discount in-world. Though, I believe for most people, the MP is all they have. In truth 10% really isn't very much at all. Again, it comes down to scale: how often you sell and the pricing of your goods. The higher the scale of your operation, the bigger the hit. I get it.

I believe the main rub is that it was a full doubling of that tax (I know, they call it commission) - rather than slowly ramping it up over time, for example: 1% each year over the last five years. So it's kind of a double-edged knife: It's fair that they do it because they really haven't done it for years and probably should have, but also it's unfair that they do it in one giant bite and I agree: that is really hard to swallow, and the more volume you sell or higher-priced your stuff is, the harder-still it is to swallow.

I am empathic to the plight people make, I am just speaking frankly, from my own perspective and remind people that nothing is ever free. And when it comes to MP sales, technically they are not taking anything; they are simply withholding part of what we never really had to begin with.

So, when I say "it's the cost of doing business" - I don't mean it in a spiteful way, but rather as a fact-check directed to those making insincere ridiculous statements, for example "They're taking 2L from every 10L sale..." - seriously? This is just plain malicious lashing out.

Let's all be honest and truthful: Yes, it's unpleasant, but is it fair? That's the real question at hand here.

I say yes, it is fair. How it was implemented, not so much.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Rya Nitely]

MP (about 70% of my sales)  - 7%, 

Homestead ~ 8%

selling L$ - 3.5%

process credit - 5% 

I estimate it to be roughly 23%

Total cost of doing business also includes purchasing programs such as Maya, Photoshop, Headus, CrazyBump, also computer, internet etc.

and then paying income tax on what's left

It's way over 50% 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

MP (about 70% of my sales)  - 7%, 

Homestead ~ 8%

selling L$ - 3.5%

process credit - 5% 

I estimate it to be roughly 23%

Total cost of doing business also includes purchasing programs such as Maya, Photoshop, Headus, CrazyBump, also computer, internet etc.

and then paying income tax on what's left

It's way over 50% 

 

If we're looking at overall costs and the grand scheme of things, you can't describe land cost ("Homestead") as a percentage because it's a fixed cost - for some merchants that number will be 75% -100% and for others it will be less than 1% for the exact same dollar amount. It's also the only number that is pre-income and has to be paid regardless of whether you make any sales at all, rather than being taken out of income. Note that Alyona was only describing fees, taxes, etc. as making up the cost of doing business figure she used as opposed to adding in rent, equipment cost, etc.

Do you know what the average profit margin of a real-world small business is? 2% to 18%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-profit-margin-small-business-23368.html

Edited December 31, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson