Process Credit Fees Raised. Again.

[ChinRey]

4 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

There are two big problems -- or maybe they are just the biggest in my mind -- one is that there are three types of physics in play and folks have a CHOICE which they use

I think that's a temporary one - or at least I hope so. ubODE is still so new not everybody has impemented it yet.

 

11 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

The second is that anyone selling in Opensim to a personally run grid on the hypergrid is essentially selling full perm. Anyone with their own grid can take an item, use the God Powers of their grid and change the permissions AND list themselves as the creator. 

Oh yes, I may not have made myself clear enough there. If you want to sell, forget about the OS grid, forget about the hypergrid and any virtual reality connected to it. I only know of one grid where they take IP protection seriously. It's not connected to the hypergrid and you're works are safe there - much safer than in SL. But that grid is so small it's not worth bothering with if you're looking for an income higher than what you can make in the Linden Realms.

 

[ChinRey]

10 hours ago, Cain Maven said:

I agree. Ebbe et al have been pretty good at the helm, as far as I can tell.

Not only the people at the helm. I rejoined SL only a year before the change and I've been watching the development. All things considered, it's amazing what they slowly but surely have managed these last three years - a textbook example how to turn a dysfunctional (dis)organisation into a tight, focused, result oriented team. Every single Linden should be proud of what they have achieved in such a short time and if they fail, it's only because the odds were stacked against them right from the start.

But this is beginning to sound like an eulogy and it's a bit too early for that at least. There's no doubt that LInden Lab is struggling hard - that blog post has at least two more quite loud alarm bells nobody has mentioned yet - but hopefully there is a way out of it.

I think I'm signing off from this discussion now, rounding it off with another message to anybody from LL who may read it (repeating myself a little bit, sorry): We all love Second Life and we all want to help keep it alive. But this time you may be asking for more than many key SL'ers are able to give. And you need to come clear. Pretending that the situation is great when it so obviously isn't, only makes matters worse.

Edited November 3, 2017 by ChinRey

[Nethya Emor]

Second Life has been improving lately, which I'm always glad to see. However a 2.5% fee with a flat limit would've been fine, or a 1% fee with no limit would maybe be fine depending on who you ask. But 2.5% without limit is a tough punch and something more common for banks to do during the (currency?) exchanges. With the current 3.50% fee on selling L$, plus taxes, and other business fees, it's a bit of a sudden punch to go from 15$>25$>125$.

[Chic Aeon]

29 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

58 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

There are two big problems -- or maybe they are just the biggest in my mind -- one is that there are three types of physics in play and folks have a CHOICE which they use

I think that's a temporary one - or at least I hope so. ubODE is still so new not everybody has impemented it yet.

Unfortunately UbOde has been in the works for a very long time. I was beta testing on OS grid -- Sandbox III I think it was 3 --  and posting outcomes LONG before I exited the building. The bullet folks don't want to change, the ODE folks don't want to change. They can't get on the same page any more than they can agree on a viewer. Well meaning folks fund projects and promise results that never happen.   Much much MUCH bickering which is evident if you were on the big Opensim Google group, reading and commenting daily. Archives are there I am sure if you want to dig.  This COULD have possibly changed since I left a few months ago but I have great doubts after watching the conversations of the last years. 

I AGREE that UBOde is the "best" choice but the freedom of Opensim (which I applaud) is also its downfall.    Add to that little to no viewer support (Firestorm really can't be everything to everyone and I get that) and huge debates on viewers in general and it sets the tone.  Opensim is a great place to learn and test and create. I learned TONS there and improved my skills for free. But it is not the answer for creators IMHO.  It is a place to play and enjoy yourself at minimal cost. 

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

20 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I think I'm signing off from this discussion now, rounding it off with another message to anybody from LL who may read it (repeating myself a little bit, sorry): We all love Second Life and we all want to help keep it alive. But this time you may be asking for more than many key SL'ers are able to give. And you need to come clear. Pretending that the situation is great when it so obviously isn't, only makes matters worse.

I think most of us DO love Second Life and DO want to keep it alive. If The Lab's choices that seemed good at the time turned out not to be, then I suspect most of us have been there. 

 

Here is some long time "second tier" creator input.

I love to build. I work hard. I ALWAYS (well almost) am working. That will not change. I am making a tiny bit more than I did a year ago (November looks to be a very good month LOL so maybe a bit more than a bit more) but I am working my virtual A** off to make the same amount of money that I have been making for years. 

Am I going to stay? You betcha especially after I read the original (parts were deleted later) content creator TOS at Sansar and backed quickly out the door.  SL is part of my life. 

BUT, am I ALSO going to remember that sacrifices that content creators were forced to make for the "good of the company" -- which isn't OUR company?

You betcha. 

 

Should another Cloud Party come around with newer tech and deeper pockets --- I will remember. 

 

 

[sirhc DeSantis]

Usual suspects and didn't see it... Yep this is the big grid if you have not tried alternatives then tough.

Confession never cashed out here but have elsewhere, All earned here goes back in.

Have earned elsewhere through stuff learned here. and via OS but don't bother.

Sums it up.

Your choice.

But that blog post was not signed so who ya gonna call (I screenshot for fun and save pages. Call me old fashioned and I read too)

PS run own OS instance that is HG for fun - and still come here. And was also in that CP hihi where everyone got erm best not to use that word.

If what you make is not portable then tough. I like it here.

Edited November 3, 2017 by sirhc DeSantis
because

[Naiman Broome]

I mean they have wasted thousands of Dollars for that prize allocation for creators in Sansar , allowing them less than 30 days announcement , cutting out all who were just invited to work on it and basically giving the prizes to who was there since beginning and we SL creators have to pay for their waste of money ???

I mean No limits to the Fee? This is not a fee is a robbery to my opinion! Its like a government putting hands in the pockets of the citizens to finance their war , a war that apparently was already lost!

Is there anything that citizen comerciants can do to protest solidly against this abuse?

[TaraSimone Sixpence]

Over a period of 8 years I have been able to watch LL make decisions, improvements, mistakes and do some fairly stupid things. I cannot make any claim as to why they decided on the up in fees for transactions, though the Sansar debacle may be more to the point.

The fact is this new fee structure is simply price-gouging. I don't know any other way to say it.

Years ago I owned a huge design house in SL. Then the fees were decent and every month I was able to pull out USD from Lindens at fair fees. But then there were 80K people on the grid at good times and the selling market was good.

I left SL for 3+ years and came back 6 months ago and again opened a design house. This time though, due to constraints of time I just put back in in terms of Lindens what I make and enjoy the design time I have.  The market though has shrunk incredibly. Even with all the additions of Mesh, Bento and now AniMesh, if you look at the numbers the maximum you will see on the grid at the best of times is between 50-52K. This is a far cry from years ago.

So it does seem that LL is just trying to make the same amount or more from less SL'ers. It impacts the merchants. It impacts anyone who is coming into to VR and seeing if it is for them. 

But the real impact comes when the fees effect the legitimate merchants. They in turn will raise their prices. (I have seen a few do this already). That in turn will cause the "consumers" to shop less. Because they too, are paying more to transfer real money to Lindens. Which will of course, bring out of the woodwork ever more of those "so called creators" who rip off things and sell them for 10L. 

1. Fees go up for transactions
2. Less real money is transferred into Lindens 
3. Which equates to less buying power
4. Merchants are forced to raise fees or accept the losses incurred while their tier and land, advertising and development fees remain the same or go up.
5. When prices go up -> less purchases. 
6. Those who seek to profit or just break even are forced to either raise fees or abandon.
7. Those of us who seek just to stay even (what goes in goes out but no more) are forced to create less.
8. Those who want to transfer back to real money are forced to pay ludicrous charges for the transfer. (LL charges, PayPal charges, Banks charge and down the line. That all has to be figured in the profit margin from SL products. So a 1% increase is really not just a 1% increase in the sales price. This is really simple math.)

So I am kind of in doubt as to the economic logic and benefit here. Instead of trying to increase the global SL economy, by increasing sales and concentrating on an increased user-base what LL seems be doing is to be milking the cow until it is dry. 

So the economic sense seems counter productive, the fees are really price-gouging and those of you who rely on real money from SL will have a much harder time legitimizing to yourselves the economic sense of being a merchant in SL.

Whoever is giving economic advice to LL needs to go back to school and study economy all over again.

But as in all things, in 3 months time, everyone will have accepted the new fee structure and that will be that. The long term effect though will simply be less money in and out of SL, via LL. Then what happens?

MHO

[Naiman Broome]

39 minutes ago, Random Sixpence said:

Over a period of 8 years I have been able to watch LL make decisions, improvements, mistakes and do some fairly stupid things. I cannot make any claim as to why they decided on the up in fees for transactions, though the Sansar debacle may be more to the point.

The fact is this new fee structure is simply price-gouging. I don't know any other way to say it.

Years ago I owned a huge design house in SL. Then the fees were decent and every month I was able to pull out USD from Lindens at fair fees. But then there were 80K people on the grid at good times and the selling market was good.

I left SL for 3+ years and came back 6 months ago and again opened a design house. This time though, due to constraints of time I just put back in in terms of Lindens what I make and enjoy the design time I have.  The market though has shrunk incredibly. Even with all the additions of Mesh, Bento and now AniMesh, if you look at the numbers the maximum you will see on the grid at the best of times is between 50-52K. This is a far cry from years ago.

So it does seem that LL is just trying to make the same amount or more from less SL'ers. It impacts the merchants. It impacts anyone who is coming into to VR and seeing if it is for them. 

But the real impact comes when the fees effect the legitimate merchants. They in turn will raise their prices. (I have seen a few do this already). That in turn will cause the "consumers" to shop less. Because they too, are paying more to transfer real money to Lindens. Which will of course, bring out of the woodwork ever more of those "so called creators" who rip off things and sell them for 10L. 

1. Fees go up for transactions
2. Less real money is transferred into Lindens 
3. Which equates to less buying power
4. Merchants are forced to raise fees or accept the losses incurred while their tier and land, advertising and development fees remain the same or go up.
5. When prices go up -> less purchases. 
6. Those who seek to profit or just break even are forced to either raise fees or abandon.
7. Those of us who seek just to stay even (what goes in goes out but no more) are forced to create less.
8. Those who want to transfer back to real money are forced to pay ludicrous charges for the transfer. (LL charges, PayPal charges, Banks charge and down the line. That all has to be figured in the profit margin from SL products. So a 1% increase is really not just a 1% increase in the sales price. This is really simple math.)

So I am kind of in doubt as to the economic logic and benefit here. Instead of trying to increase the global SL economy, by increasing sales and concentrating on an increased user-base what LL seems be doing is to be milking the cow until it is dry. 

So the economic sense seems counter productive, the fees are really price-gouging and those of you who rely on real money from SL will have a much harder time legitimizing to yourselves the economic sense of being a merchant in SL.

Whoever is giving economic advice to LL needs to go back to school and study economy all over again.

But as in all things, in 3 months time, everyone will have accepted the new fee structure and that will be that. The long term effect though will simply be less money in and out of SL, via LL. Then what happens?

MHO

People will retire more money now before the new fee arrives, then price will rise , people will sell less and people will buy less , copybotters will copy and sell for much much less original products and the ture merchants will start to leave sl or close for banckrupcy , a destiny that seems to be overshadowing on sl by that course of action.

[Theresa Tennyson]

17 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

• On January 3, 2018, the fee for processing credit transactions (i.e. paying real money into a PayPal or Skrill account) will be 2.5% per transaction, with a $3 (USD) minimum, and no maximum. This fee is currently 1.5% per transaction, with a $3 (USD) minimum and a $25 (USD) maximum.

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2016/05/second-life-linden-dollar-market.html

Now let's do some math:

Cash out $1,000,000 at 254 Lindens/dollar, less $25 fee: $3912

And, as I'm sure you're aware, that was just at the beginning of the "panic" and the exchange rate was over 260 for months.

Cash out $1,000,000 at the current quick-sell number of 247 Lindens/dollar, less 2.5% fee: $3947.

The point: you'll make more money with expensive Lindens and a high fee than cheap Lindens and a low fee, and if you believe that Linden Lab doesn't control the exchange rate you're delusional - the market is set up so that Linden Lab has to constantly "print" and sell Lindens. The higher cash-out fee mostly serves to make re-investment in SL (tier, etc.) slightly more attractive than cashing out.

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Theresa Tennyson

[Phil Deakins]

I really don't understand why anyone is surprised by this. It's typical of what LL has done for many years, starting when they bought the 2 most prominent off-world shopping systems, and turned them into the ridiculously flawed (from what I read) Marketplace. They wanted a cut of the user-generated shopping profits, over and above the fees they get for things like land, L$ buys and sells, and cashouts, so they created a way of becoming a part of user businesses - the middleman. In the process, they managed to close most of the SL stores, to the huge detriment of SL of course, but that never mattered to LL.

They've always found ways of gouging more and more bits of money. It's the nature of the LL company. It's what they do. So this should not be any sort of surprise to anyone. Naturally, they attempt to pull the wool over users' eyes by dressing it up in words such as, "We're investing millions into ...". What they mean is, "We're investing millions of users' money, and this is how we're going to get it from you, and it's going to be a really exciting future for you all". Of course they throw in a little bone or two to sweeten it, and, when the bone arrives, everyone will shout, "Well done LL, What a nice bone. We are so lucky. Keep up the good work".

Sorry, but the announcement represents just another ordinary day in the life of Linden Lab and Second Life.

[ChinRey]

45 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

...

the exchange rate was over 260 for months.

...

you'll make more money with expensive Lindens and a high fee than cheap Lindens and a low fee, and if you believe that Linden Lab doesn't control the exchange rate you're delusional

 

So the exchange rate is far more important to a merchant's income than the transaction fees and it's controlled by LL who is quite happy to increase or reduce it by almost 10% on a whim and without even mentioning it to the people affected. You are right of course, that is a much bigger issue than the new fees.

In the end, the only thing SL entrepeneurs can do is trust that LL isn't going to let them down and that brings up another aspect of this infamous blog post: If I had read this without already knowing LL and SL, my con scheme alarm would have gone off immediately. It does not inspire confidence to put it mildly.

Edited November 3, 2017 by ChinRey

[Richardus Raymaker]

Stop pointing and blaming sansar. Sansar have nothing todo with this change !

It's more logic to say that secondlife is try to change from a tier based econemy that keep users out of secondlife to something like a content based econonemy. If secondlife can generate enough income from sales, premium and lindex. Combined with cloud that can lower the running costs. There's mabye a change that tier can drop and sims get cheaper. If it's cheap enough is other thing.

Mabye the increase this to get the millions that the want to invest in secondlife this way !

But it's nothing todo with sansar, that's going to be so much better then secondlife in time. Secondliife and sansar can life fine togheter in the same room. With there own budget.

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I really don't understand why anyone is surprised by this. It's typical of what LL has done for many years, starting when they bought the 2 most prominent off-world shopping systems, and turned them into the ridiculously flawed (from what I read) Marketplace. They wanted a cut of the user-generated shopping profits, over and above the fees they get for things like land, L$ buys and sells, and cashouts, so they created a way of becoming a part of user businesses - the middleman. In the process, they managed to close most of the SL stores, to the huge detriment of SL of course, but that never mattered to LL.

They've always found ways of gouging more and more bits of money. It's the nature of the LL company. It's what they do. So this should not be any sort of surprise to anyone. Naturally, they attempt to pull the wool over users' eyes by dressing it up in words such as, "We're investing millions into ...". What they mean is, "We're investing millions of users' money, and this is how we're going to get it from you, and it's going to be a really exciting future for you all". Of course they throw in a little bone or two to sweeten it, and, when the bone arrives, everyone will shout, "Well done LL, What a nice bone. We are so lucky. Keep up the good work".

Sorry, but the announcement represents just another ordinary day in the life of Linden Lab and Second Life.

That's what I said.

... Less eloquently.

[Pamela Galli]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

 

So the exchange rate is far more important to a merchant's income than the transaction fees and it's controlled by LL who is quite happy to increase or reduce it by almost 10% on a whim and without even mentioning it to the people affected. You are right of course, that is a much bigger issue than the new fees.

Oh they mentioned it. I think it was Ebbe himself who said they had not done a thing to affect the price. 

I never believed that, though.

[Pamela Galli]

1 hour ago, Richardus Raymaker said:

 

Stop pointing and blaming sansar.

 

Word is out, Sansar is a bore.

LL: Oops that was a colossal waste Of money, how can we make it up?

Oh, how about cannibalizing SL? Merchants will put up with anything!

[NevaehHeartstrings]

Calling it now.

9.5% fees by spring 2020.

Edited November 3, 2017 by NevaehHeartstrings

[Haruka Catteneo]

So basically what they are doing is cutting off the wings of the Phoenix that feeds them her eggs.

What are they gonna do if the creators just decide to cash out their lindens now before January and then take out everything from the MP, lock their inworld stores, or even pick up their store and return land, going hiatus or just simply stand in one spot doing nothing anymore? On the long run, the one that would suffer the most if something like this happens (hopefully not) is Linden Labs... Yes, creators will also suffer, especially the new ones who depend on buyers or even the well-known brands who depend on their reputation, but not as much as LL.

It is a shame how they want to milk out of a wounded animal even tho they know it is their fault it was wounded in the first place. Sorry but I am pro the boycott if they want to do it lol

[Manuel Ormidale]

Well to be honest, it will be okays for me to pay a little more to Linden Labs for providing the service (Sl in general). But what I expect from them in return that cash outs can be made in different currencys like Euros for example. Or give back the abbility to to have the money send to a bank-account.

 

[Callum Meriman]

On 03/11/2017 at 6:05 AM, Pamela Galli said:

 If they spent a tiny fraction on SL of that they spend on Sansar, this would not be such an insult. 

Whats worse is we are still propping that sansar vomitworld up with this fee.

If they spun vomitworld to stand on its own feet we wouldn't be paying for "the staff to watch out for money laundering" a second time.

That's what galls me, the lies. The Lab must think we are stupid to use the same excuse barely 3 months after the first time they used it.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Callum Meriman

[Richardus Raymaker]

People that say sansar is money waste really not get it and for sure never been there.

Otherwise you know it works perfect in desktop mode to an VR not required. People seems to forget how sl where in the first few years. Just like sansar. Software that is in development. It's for sure not a money waste. Putting new money in secondlife is a big waste, old technology that's not up to good framerates and graphics. It's extreme expensive so most people can only use it in 'guest' mode.

And the the missing functionality like first person mode no fbx support wrong build scale. etc.

Time will tell, but i predict that new people go use sansar in few years !

 

 

[Alwin Alcott]

7 minutes ago, Richardus Raymaker said:

People that say sansar is money waste really not get it and for sure never been there.

yes i have been there. And it's a waste of money now.

8 minutes ago, Richardus Raymaker said:

Otherwise you know it works perfect in desktop mode to an VR not required

oh yes, perfect ... and don't forget the updates that take 30 minutes or more to download and install when you try to log in... .so fun

9 minutes ago, Richardus Raymaker said:

It's extreme expensive so most people can only use it in 'guest' mode.

there is no guest mode... rubbish.  Most income in sl is generated by non premium members.

[Rya Nitely]

On 04/11/2017 at 12:19 AM, Pamela Galli said:

Oh they mentioned it. I think it was Ebbe himself who said they had not done a thing to affect the price. 

I never believed that, though.

Yes, the exchange rate. I remember pages and pages of frustrating confusion, and wild illogical theories when that exchange rate went crazy. The most logical reason was that LL were dumping loads of L$ on the market (probably to fund Sansar).

I don't like the fee increase but at least its transparent. We are not being lied to. What they did with the exchange rate, that was just plain stressful for everyone who sells L$. And if they did it once.............there's no trusting it.

[Rya Nitely]

Talking about the exchange rate, it will be very interesting to see what effect this will have on it as people rush to sell and cash out before January.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

Talking about the exchange rate, it will be very interesting to see what effect this will have on it as people rush to sell and cash out before January.

I remember when the state I lived in announced that they were increasing the sales tax from 4% to 6%. People rushed into car dealers to buy a car just before the tax amount changed so they could "save money", not realizing that because they were obviously in a hurry they were setting themselves up for the car dealers to increase their profit margins on a sale, probably by well over the 2% they were "saving."