Process Credit Fees Raised. Again.

[Paul Hexem]

31 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Is it? Homer described the sea as "wine-like" (and the sky as "bronze coloured"). Are you saying he was wrong???

On the contrary!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina

[OptimoMaximo]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Is it? Homer described the sea as "wine-like" (and the sky as "bronze coloured"). Are you saying he was wrong???

Homer is NEVER wrong! 😂

[Wulfie Reanimator]

8 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

Maybe you didn't read the posts that preceded Tonks post, and mine, but we were including our RL costs (tax, vat, paypal, computer, internet etc.) because it was in response to Alyona's post. She was talking about the full cost of doing business, where she was comparing SL to her RL business. Your response to Tonk, where you referred back to your earlier calculations, was out of context.

Sure, I didn't read anything on the previous page. I saw this thread in the "Unread posts" page and I caught up on the last page because I had time. That does explain the reason he brought up that whole list of numbers which at the time seemed like exaggeration of how bad it is. However, I've also been talking exactly in the context of "the full cost of doing business."

8 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

Who were you talking about, ....hanging onto sinking ships? I assumed you were talking about Tonk, but if not who. I responded by saying people may not have a choice.

If LL makes a small change that forces anyone into a situation where they have no other choice than quitting, they were most likely already in a situation where they were struggling to get by. This risky situation is the "sinking ship" I'm talking about. It's not about anyone in specific, the same thing applies to all creators who are forced to quit due to these recent fee increases.

I say "small change" because, as I've already tried to point out, when you consider the full cost of doing business, LL's changes have barely affected the bottom line -- the amount of cash one gets after all fees and taxes. When I gave the example of $50K/year income and $200/month post-tax loss, it wasn't a sudden change, it was semi-gradual over 2 years (18 months and 6 months). If anyone gets a paycut but doesn't adjust their lifestyle at all, their struggle is going to be much worse and it's not the fault of whoever made the paycut.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Chic Aeon]

6 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

People are usually more forthcoming to talk or hint about how much money they're making, if they talk about it at all, but not so much when things start to go bad. I know I felt a little hesitation when admitting my 40% drop in income. If those doing well would let us know, here in the forums, that would be a bit of reassurance . I know plenty of people read but don't post. But I guess those doing well might not care about this topic, and are too busy doing well.

Actually the folks that I have chatted about business over the years have been pretty forthcoming with  lost money scenarios so (for me) it is quite puzzling that they are not now. But in general I certainly agree.  It has only been four days into the month but it is a bit better than December which is encouraging.  Happy with my decision though to scale down. 

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

If LL makes a small change that forces anyone into a situation where they have no other choice than quitting, they were most likely already in a situation where they were struggling to get by.

A five percent reduction of the revenue is a heads up for most businesses and as such it may actually be a blessing in disguise for many. You don't really notice the gradual erosion of your income and it can easily be explained as seasonal changes or random fluctuations. A sudden and obviously permanent drop like this, however, is a clear warning signal and once you take heed of it, you also take a look at the whole picture.

But even more important than the change itself, is how Linden Lab went about it. At no point have LL tried to open a dialog with the merchants. At no point have they tried to justify this change towards the merchants. At no point have they tried to understand the merchants' situation. Ebbe Linden has even clearly stated that LL regards the merchants as a group that deserves to have their income reduced.

Any b2b relationship (any long term relationship of any kind for that matter) depends on a certain level of mutual understanding, respect and trust. LL shows no understanding of or respect for the merchants' situation and they've now broken the little trust that was left. The message is loud and clear for any merchant to see:

LINDEN LAB IS YOUR ENEMY!

It is now up to Linden Lab to decide if they want to and are able to rebuild a positive relationship with the SL merchants. They broke it, they pay. If they don't they'll only boost the already worrying downwards spiral, if the decide to try they've really got their work cut out for them. Trust is easy to destroy, hard to build, even harder to rebuild and they have a lot to learn and unlearn before they can do something really effective to heal the wounds.

Edited January 5, 2020 by ChinRey

[Wulfie Reanimator]

26 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Ebbe Linden has even clearly stated that LL regards the merchants as a group that deserves to have their income reduced.

I absolutely agree with everything you said, besides the disagreement with this part. (Edit: Misworded what I meant.)

But first: LL brought up the example of "other platforms taking up 30%" when they announced MP tax going up from 5% to 10%. This is deceptive because those other stores use "real currencies" instead of the intermediate one we have to sell away separately.  Back in 2017, LL took 9.7% of your income in total (MP, LindeX, Processing), before you received the money. Right now they take 17.49%. That's a lot closer to 30% than 10%.

But I think, in principle, the idea of increasing fees for merchants is valid. Like you said, though, they haven't gone about it the right way.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[ChinRey]

3 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I absolutely agree with everything you said, besides this part.

This is what he actually said:

"... i do believe that the burden of land owners is a bit too high, and we have other people in the world who are sort-of getting away with not being charged enough or taxed enough"

(https://modemworld.me/lab-chat-3-bento-and-second-life/#mainland)

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

But even more important than the change itself, is how Linden Lab went about it. At no point have LL tried to open a dialog with the merchants. At no point have they tried to justify this change towards the merchants. At no point have they tried to understand the merchants' situation. Ebbe Linden has even clearly stated that LL regards the merchants as a group that deserves to have their income reduced.

 

 

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I absolutely agree with everything you said, besides the disagreement with this part. (Edit: Misworded what I meant.)

 

 

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

This is what he actually said:

"... i do believe that the burden of land owners is a bit too high, and we have other people in the world who are sort-of getting away with not being charged enough or taxed enough"

 

Has it occurred to you that perhaps he was not referring to all merchants, but to certain ones - i.e. fruit-named clothing makers, cat-named head makers, etc. - who do far, far more business than the average business but under the old "taxation" system payed almost exactly the same amount as merchants like a certain clothing maker I know of who is holding onto a full region despite their store not putting out anything new since mesh was introduced?
 

[ChinRey]

52 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Has it occurred to you that perhaps he was not referring to all merchants, but to certain ones

Yes, it has. But it's irrelevant, collateral damage is still damage.

What you stipulate is that LL is quite happy to "punish" the many for the alleged sins of the few and if that is correct, it only makes matters worse. Personally, for all my criticism of LL I still firmly believe their intentions are good and for that reason I don't think they would sink that low.

Edited January 5, 2020 by ChinRey
Typos

[Luna Bliss]

So what's the consensus, girls?  What amount does one have to cash out before they are 'getting away with something'?

Edited January 5, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

47 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Personally, for all my criticism of LL I still firmly believe their intentions are good and for that reason I don't think they would sink that low.

Does a corporation have good intentions?

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Right now they take 17.49%. That's a lot closer to 30% than 10%.

The Lindex has increasingly caused the seller to lose more money, mysteriously, so you should probably add that to your 17.49% figure.  I played around with it some time ago, and the increased amount we pay now added up to quite a bit (I think I was comparing now with a year or a year and a half ago...whenever it started to climb).  The amount was around $20 usd  extra in additional costs based on attempting to convert $1000 usd  (if my memory serves me).

[Luna Bliss]

21 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I have noted a fair amount of well-known brands (not necessarily H and G) downsizing like I have just done -- and sometimes even smaller than a  4096.  So that's part of the story too. Trying to lower costs to make up the shortfall.

Yes this is a great example of what ChinRey pointed out so well earlier....these attempts to gouge us for more could actually backfire in the long-run, causing LL to end up with less.

[Luna Bliss]

21 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

22 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do those outside the US know that half the US population lives on $30,000 per year or less,

do those in the US know that's a lot of money compared to most europeans?  .. the avarage for the "common man"  here is 30-36 k a year. And that average common man is not the one that works all day in a factory.
starting salaries for aged 21 and up is 21 K..
Not even starting about the taxes .. those are a lot higher here than yours.

I was not attempting to evoke a "which country has it badder" debate -- I mentioned the reality of those in the US because Chic brought the economy up as a reason for low sales and so I was elaborating on that topic, and because Wulfie used a preposterous estimation of what a typical merchant who supports themselves in SL earns (the $50,000 amount), reminding me once again that many people outside the US have the mistaken notion that the US is swimming in gold, and it is not. We have to keep this in mind as we evaluate LL, as it is a US based company as are a high percentage of its residents.

But since you want to compare the tax issue...though you may appear to pay more in taxes you actually don't, as you get far more services that we have to pay for ourselves which are not assigned the name of 'tax'.  Services such as health care, bullet trains, great schools, nursing care, prescriptions, 4 weeks paid vacation, paid maternity leave, paid sick leave, daycare, free college. Since we have to pay for all this ourselves (we could call these 'hidden taxes') the net effect is that those in the US come out far worse compared to most other 1st world countries (especially when we go bankrupt due to medical bills, or become one of the 40,000 annually that die due to lack of health insurance).  If you're interested, here's a short video using France as an example:

 are

[Wulfie Reanimator]

40 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The Lindex has increasingly caused the seller to lose more money, mysteriously, so you should probably add that to your 17.49% figure.

You wanna elaborate on that?

27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

and because Wulfie used a preposterous estimation of what a typical merchant who supports themselves in SL earns (the $50,000 amount), reminding me once again that many people outside the US have the mistaken notion that the US is swimming in gold, and it is not.

I did not use $50K as an example because I think that's what your average content creator is actually making -- US or otherwise. I used that number as an example because it's a lot of money but the loss is still small. It's about perspective. If we cut that number in half, $25K, the loss gets cut in half too. Percentages are proportional.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Luna Bliss]

20 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

49 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The Lindex has increasingly caused the seller to lose more money, mysteriously, so you should probably add that to your 17.49% figure.

You wanna elaborate on that?

No, I want you to read the threads related to the fee increases where this info rests (even just this one, as you said you did not), before commenting on just about everything.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I did not use $50K as an example because I think that's what your average content creator is actually making -- US or otherwise. I used that number as an example because it's a lot of money but the loss is still very small. It's about perspective. If we cut that number in half, $25K, the loss gets cut in half too. Percentages are proportional.

I considered that, but why use the specific number you did...$50,000 per year?  I would estimate his earnings at  $1,000 per month.

It's NOT a small loss if it means not being able to pay your heat that month, or missing a few meals in a week.  Get out of your robot head and into the real world, please.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

39 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I considered that, but why use the specific number you did...$50,000 per year?  I would estimate his earnings at  $1,000 per month.

It's NOT a small loss if it means not being able to pay your heat that month, or missing a few meals in a week.  Get out of your robot head and into the real world, please.

The real world? Alright.

My yearly post-tax income IRL is currently equivalent to $3350. I get 250€ into my bank account per month. It has been like that for about a year, before that I was getting about 750€/mo for a couple years. I'm a full-time student. I live alone and nobody else pays for my bills. I pay my rent (apart from a portion of my rent which I'm entitled to from the Finnish government), I pay for my phone, I buy my food, I can't afford a car so I pay for my public transit. I ride a dang scooter (the ones you push with your feet) to school. I've still managed to save a decent amount of money during this time.

Don't tell me I don't know what it feels like to struggle, because I bet nobody in this bunny farm is as pressed for money as I am. There are a lot of things I'd like to say right now but I'm still a decent person.

I'm sorry if my comments frustrate you, but the feeling is mutual and I'm not going to change my mind until somebody actually makes an effort in explaining why I am wrong instead of being uppity and telling me to shut up because you're taking things too personally.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[OptimoMaximo]

I just checked back on the sell LindEx exchange rate. It's gone up to 259 right now. Now, compared to the first fee raise when it was 247 stable for a loooooong time, it's a 4.85% increase. As @Chic Aeon reported, also my sales have restarted to be more numerous than in December, so I'm guessing also others see this same trend. If customers are now putting in more money to buy L$, how's it possible that the exchange rate keeps going up, if it's REALLY driven by the market and not somehow manipulated. The actual fee raise is now 10% on top of the previous, making it a total of 15% (14.85%). On a hypothetical $1000 withradaw, that alone makes a 150$ loss alone and being told it's just 100$.

[Luna Bliss]

17 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I'm not going to change my mind until somebody actually makes an effort in explaining why I am wrong

Wulfie, somehow it feels like you have a soft heart despite your butting into threads telling people they are dumb, and calling merchants irresponsible, thinking too much with numbers instead of empathy, and giving everyone your advice without even taking the time to read the thread.  So I will attempt to explain...

Maybe...answering a few questions can further the discussion..

1. Many people choose to do what they love, and live on the edge because of this. This is because often, society does not compensate some creatives & freelancers in a way that's monetarily fair. There's always a push to be part of 'the system' , and the general populace is controlled in this way.   So... would a creative freelancer be somehow 'better' or more "responsible" by doing a job they hate, one that furthers a system that hoards wealth in order to support the elites, creates inequality, and sends more of its youth to die in unnecessary wars....JUST BECAUSE IT PAYS MORE?   

2. Do you think a freelancer or artist, choosing to live the way that do (on the edge) has no right to complain if they feel they are being treated unfairly?

3. Regarding fee increases, why do you trust the figures a corporation determines is best over what the merchants believe?  For example, you said you feel it's fair that LL increases our fees.  On WHAT do you base this?  This is very important, why do you believe our fees should increase?

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes this is a great example of what ChinRey pointed out so well earlier....these attempts to gouge us for more could actually backfire in the long-run, causing LL to end up with less.

Yes, I thought of that as I gave up my sim :D.     I don't count at all in The Lab's books these days.   I no longer exchange linden dollars for USD OR process credit out.  AND I am giving up some premium memberships when their times are up.  I never bought lindens except what you needed to long ago on threat of losing your account (that didn't even happen by the way). 

 

So the ONLY money they get from me now is the commission on the Marketplace sales.   Well, I guess I count a TAD still *wink*.  That is a lot of money that they are losing from my accounts.    Even with the increase in profits my marketplace sales won't equal the loss (by tons). 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Chic Aeon
spelling

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

1. Many people choose to do what they love, and live on the edge because of this. This is because often, society does not compensate some creatives & freelancers in a way that's monetarily fair. There's always a push to be part of 'the system' , and the general populace is controlled in this way.   So... would a creative freelancer be somehow 'better' or more "responsible" by doing a job they hate, one that furthers a system that hoards wealth in order to support the elites, creates inequality, and sends more of its youth to die in unnecessary wars....JUST BECAUSE IT PAYS MORE?   

You're talking to someone who's in poverty within the poverty margin, and I still consider myself financially responsible because I have saved myself a financial cushion. I am not living on the edge with 250€ per month. There are no sudden expenses that can surprise me even as I make less than peanuts. I can live on negative income (and I do, my expenses are slightly greater than 250€, I don't have the exact number at hand but I estimate 400-500€) for a couple years at the current rate. I don't need to be "part of the machine" or "do what I hate."

The answer is yes and no. You don't have to "waste away your life working a job you don't like in a system that's against you" if you just manage you dang money. You don't even have to do something you hate, you can just do something that's "kinda tolerable" while you build up that safety net. Then you can throw it aside and focus on what you want to do; and comfortably survive with less without worrying about a 5/10/15% permanent changes in income, or the month-to-month fluctuation of your sales. I'm completely fine talking about my personal finances if that's what it takes to get through your dismissal.

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

2. Do you think a freelancer or artist, choosing to live the way that do (on the edge) has no right to complain if they feel they are being treated unfairly?

Of course they have the right to complain. But your question is framed in a misleading way. I don't believe Linden Lab is being unfair with the new rates. These numbers are still reasonable, we can come back to it when we're even closer to the 30% they've touted. (Not 30% MP tax, total.) I've also already agreed that the way these fees have been increased is arguably unfair, see @ChinRey's post with the big red letters.

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

3. Regarding fee increases, why do you trust the figures a corporation determines is best over what the merchants believe?  For example, you said you feel it's fair that LL increases our fees.  On WHAT do you base this?  This is very important, why do you believe our fees should increase?

For the record, I don't "trust" that the numbers LL comes up with are "the best" for the platform. I base my opinion of "acceptable fees" on what other similar stores I'm aware of are using. If everybody was going 10/90, or 33/66, or 50/50, I wouldn't tell any one of them to lower their rate because at that point the market has agreed that that ratio is acceptable and successful. These fees are pretty nebulous/arbitrary, as in "how do you quantify that your part as the platform is worth X%?"

LL is also in a much better position than you or I to make guesses on these rations because they have absolute statistics on how much money merchants cash out. There is no increase you can make anywhere that won't push someone out of the platform or into the danger zone, besides taxing the customer directly which I want more of than just the flat fee for buying L$. I don't buy L$ or cash out L$, so I'm the embodiment lost revenue for LL.

Hypothetically, if we were back in SL's first day and there were no other online stores, you could argue that this is LL's platform and therefore they can take 75%. How are you going to argue that's not the case? This subject is incredibly complicated and there's more to it than just our opinions vs LL's opinion. There's no way to absolutely know ahead of time whether you, I, that guy selling sim-crashing breedables, or LL is correct.

What the best fee is specifically for Second Life can't be just calculated like taxes on personal income. That means that you can't know it either, no matter what you make, how hard you work, or for how long you've been a merchant. Your only reference point is yourself and a small crowd of people from among hundreds of thousands. Even if everybody you talk to is doing great and sales are going up, that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who are suffering a steady and painful decline.

Edit, btw:

1 hour ago, OptimoMaximo said:

I just checked back on the sell LindEx exchange rate. It's gone up to 259 right now. Now, compared to the first fee raise when it was 247 stable for a loooooong time, it's a 4.85% increase. As @Chic Aeon reported, also my sales have restarted to be more numerous than in December, so I'm guessing also others see this same trend. If customers are now putting in more money to buy L$, how's it possible that the exchange rate keeps going up, if it's REALLY driven by the market and not somehow manipulated. The actual fee raise is now 10% on top of the previous, making it a total of 15% (14.85%). On a hypothetical $1000 withradaw, that alone makes a 150$ loss alone and being told it's just 100$.

If you're withdrawing "$1000", it doesn't matter what the exchange rate is. That $1000 is just equivalent to a different amount of L$ at the time of withdraw, but it's still $1000. The change in rate only matters if you've been holding onto $1000 from a long time ago, in which case the decline does mean that the lindens that were once worth $1000 are now worth less and you have in fact lost more money. Actually, I guess it does matter if you don't change your prices to adjust for inflation. I wonder if other (non-SL) stores do that?

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Rya Nitely]

As a student, you have a bright future ahead of you? That would make it easier to put up with a lower income because it's temporary. Not forever, and getting worse. Wouldn't you say? Would you like to live like this forever, with a strong indication that it could get worse?

and again, why do you think the fee increases over the past 3 years are justified, including the decreased value of L$?

and also, we have been discussing the situation for a couple of years now, and in 3 threads recently. If you really want to understand the situation, and not just oppose our views, then read them. If you don't have the time, then don't expect us to rehash it all for you again. Only for you to find something that you can say to oppose it.

Read the other threads and make an effort to understand.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Rya Nitely
grammar

[Dhyaanee]

When do the kiddies in Finland go back to school.   😣

[Wulfie Reanimator]

19 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

As a student, you have a bright future ahead of you? That would make it easier to put up with a lower income because it's temporary. Not forever, and getting worse. Wouldn't you say? Would you like to live like this forever, with a strong indication that it could get worse?

Friend, I spent years doing absolutely nothing but struggle alone on 750€; no plan, no school. It's miserable, which is why I'm back to school. And it did get worse, I lost over 60% of my income when I started school and I had to take a loan because of it. I've only just recently started, I have another 3-4 years of slog to go. This is post-college. That loan I took was less than what I had in the bank too, because I don't want to risk borrowing money I can't pay back. I have plans to have a part-time job at some point, but even if I mess this up, I don't have to be in fear of that loan I took.

19 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

and again, why do you think the fee increases over the past 3 years are justified, including the decreased value of L$?

Unfortunately I can't read my post for you, sorry. All currencies fluctuate in value, whether or not LL is manipulating this one specifically is a whole separate discussion that I don't care to have.

19 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

and also, we have been discussing the situation for a couple of years now, and in 3 threads recently. If you really want to understand the situation, and not just oppose our views, then read them. If you don't have the time, then don't expect us to rehash it all for you again. Only for you to find something that you can say to oppose it.

I understand your views, that's not the problem. I just disagree with your views and would like to discuss them but you keep making personal jabs at me because you don't like what I have to say, that's the problem.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator