Would an influx of users who joins primarily to earn money by doing services hurts SL's economy, or stimulate it?

[Parhelion Palou]

10 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

So do all game(the games within sl, that is) players have to come here for humanitarian reasons in order to benefit sl in some fashion? If not, why should those that want to enjoy some entertainment AND perhaps make some money for their families as well? 

I know that sounds snarky, it's really not, or at least my intent behind the questions is not...I'm honestly curious what you really mean with humanitarian reasons, mostly because I can't think of a whole heck of a lot of people that ever came, or come, to sl for that, in fact, I can't think of a single person, ever, since 2004 my very first encounter with sl, ever finding anyone that came here for humanitarian reasons. Perhaps you have a different definition for humanitarian than I do, though.  Heck even LL isn't in it for humanitarian reasons, lol. 

There was Camp Darfur (to raise awareness of genocide in Sudan). I know of a couple places that simulated homelessness to raise awareness for that. I suppose Relay for Life would count as well. Many nonprofit organizations, with one of my favorites being Virtual Ability. There's a part of SL that most never see.

[Chase01]

No, not everyone has to come here out of humanitarian reasons to benefit the platform. What I meant by that was their sole purpose in coming here was simply to improve their financial situation without adding any value to the platform. In other words welcoming them with the idea there they are here just to collect ... they aren't interested in doing many of the things that a regular sl user might; buying or renting land, purchase thing,  interacting with others etc.

[Tari Landar]

3 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

There was Camp Darfur (to raise awareness of genocide in Sudan). I know of a couple places that simulated homelessness to raise awareness for that. I suppose Relay for Life would count as well. Many nonprofit organizations, with one of my favorites being Virtual Ability. There's a part of SL that most never see.

I would not consider RFL in sl as humanitarian(and I have a very deep connection with RFL in sl and in rl, especially being cancer free myself for 21 years now), or even many other groups, charities, etc...because the people involved in them did not come to sl for humanitarian reasons. The groups exist for that purpose, yes, absolutely, as a collective, they have (most) done so much good for countless people. I commend charities and those that support them within sl, it's not an easy thing to pull off in a virtual environment. I take part in quite a few of them, and regularly support nearly all that I find (and can determine are reputable, lol, hey, some aren't, just like in rl)

1 hour ago, Chase01 said:

No, not everyone has to come here out of humanitarian reasons to benefit the platform. What I meant by that was their sole purpose in coming here was simply to improve their financial situation without adding any value to the platform. In other words welcoming them with the idea there they are here just to collect ... they aren't interested in doing many of the things that a regular sl user might; buying or renting land, purchase thing,  interacting with others etc.

I guess this is a matter of how one determines value. I don't think I get to determine value for others, or even the platform. I consider a lot of things as being valuable to the grid as a whole that others may not, though(or, so I have noticed here). I also see these people, whether or not their sole purpose is to take money out, as offering *something* valuable for those willing to pay them for their time and effort(regardless of how little that may be to some), otherwise, folks wouldn't do it.  When I host these games, I don't sit there and consider how much value each and every player that comes to my land to enjoy these offerings is adding to the grid. I am sure the levels of such would be widely varied. I consider what they can offer me, what I can offer them. If it is worth my own effort...awesome, if it is not, I simply won't do it. I very well may be that player you're talking about at any given point in time. I can go an entire year never buying land, never buying anything in sl, rarely if ever talking to anyone, enjoying these games....am I not providing anything of value to sl too? I like to think the landowners paying me with their offerings believe I add some kind of value, or they wouldn't be doing it.  And that's what it boils down to....if there is no value to landowners offering/hosting these games..they won't do it..period. But, they do, have for years, and will continue to do so...which tells me there is value in it for them, and that's what matters(not whether or not others not involved see value in it) 

But, I think now we're probably venturing into the whole freeloader thing, and that's been hashed and beaten to death on these forums. 

 

[Parhelion Palou]

24 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I would not consider RFL in sl as humanitarian(and I have a very deep connection with RFL in sl and in rl, especially being cancer free myself for 21 years now), or even many other groups, charities, etc...because the people involved in them did not come to sl for humanitarian reasons. The groups exist for that purpose, yes, absolutely, as a collective, they have (most) done so much good for countless people. I commend charities and those that support them within sl, it's not an easy thing to pull off in a virtual environment. I take part in quite a few of them, and regularly support nearly all that I find (and can determine are reputable, lol, hey, some aren't, just like in rl)

I'll put it this way: I know (and have known) many people who joined SL specifically for their nonprofit. In the case of some of the larger ones, a person on their staff was given (or volunteered for) the job of creating an avatar and setting up an in-world office. Smaller nonprofits were generally represented in SL by the person who started the nonprofit. Not knowing any people in a category doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Parhelion Palou said:

I'll put it this way: I know (and have known) many people who joined SL specifically for their nonprofit. In the case of some of the larger ones, a person on their staff was given (or volunteered for) the job of creating an avatar and setting up an in-world office. Smaller nonprofits were generally represented in SL by the person who started the nonprofit. Not knowing any people in a category doesn't mean they don't exist.

I never said they don't exist, I specifically said *I* don't know of any, and have never come across any. Of course that doesn't mean those folks don't exist, I am quite certain they probably exist everywhere in the world, even if I haven't seen or met them. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that anyone would come to sl solely for humanitarian reasons, though, or that anyone does (expectations and reality are not mutually inclusive or exclusive here). I don't raise money for RFL and participate in their events, research, etc..(in rl and sl) solely for humanitarian reasons, either. Although that is the primary goal of course, there are other reasons why I do it, including reaping the benefits for my own family and our future generations to come. That may be humanitarian, but I also benefit from it personally, and a large part of my efforts is actually quite selfish in nature when you really delve into it, but I doubt anyone ants to read that or why I believe humans in general rarely do much of anything that doesn't offer them some type of benefit-tangible or otherwise. I have gained a lot from RFL and ACS,  far more than I will ever be able to give back, that is for certain. It's wonderful when we can find something that benefits the welfare of other humans, and also enjoy doing it, potentially reaping our own benefit(s), whatever it/they might be, tangible or otherwise. I am quite fond of such things  

[Chase01]

On 10/29/2017 at 1:03 AM, Tari Landar said:

I don't think some folks give gold farmers much credit. Such grinding, while a royal pain in the ass, can be lucrative as all get out.

Maybe that's true to an extent, but it isn't really the fact that people don't give them much credit, its that the work they do impacts their experience. The comments made about the work itself are really a bi-product of that.

The business is profitable because they operate what is essentially a digital sweatshop. Developers know that the farmers impact their communities, not only in terms of inflation, but account hacking (cleaning) and fraud (the dirty side of that business). Those are things common in the markets that the farmers operate in, and quite frankly I'd hate to see happen to a larger extent here. Those same farmers cost developers a lot of money ...

Tari, I don't mean to be rude but I don't sit around judging what people should deem as valuable, or their value to the platform. This is a discussion on economy, not people's rights. Of course a land owner has the right to decide if handing out free money from playing games on their land is valuable to them (knock yourself out). Who was even questioning that? In your wall of text, I have yet to see a point over how this would stimulate the economy.

[Tari Landar]

3 hours ago, Chase01 said:

 

Tari, I don't mean to be rude but I don't sit around judging what people should deem as valuable, or their value to the platform. This is a discussion on economy, not people's rights. Of course a land owner has the right to decide if handing out free money from playing games on their land is valuable to them (knock yourself out). Who was even questioning that? In your wall of text, I have yet to see a point over how this would stimulate the economy.

So how do all other residents that don't play these games stimulate the economy? Since sl has such a wide variety of residents, and their purposes for being here...it's reasonable to assume that there are tons of folks that do little to nothing to stimulate the economy in sl. Is everyone going to start hating on them again too? Are we going to have another "freeloader versus premium" thread on the forums? I'm pretty sure the subject's been beaten beyond recognition, but if you really want to understand the "value" people bring to sl...all kinds of people, it might help to read some of those discussions. Although heated, and at times ridiculous, idiotic and full of..well, crap...there is actually some informational posts in them. I suggest searching for it. 

Look, I get it, people don't like these games, they don't like the idea of someone coming in here, making lindens, cashing it out and doing what some seem to deem as "giving nothing to the grid". What I don't get is why you(general, not you specific) get to determine that they are indeed giving *nothing* to the grid. You just said you don't sit around and judge what others should deem as valuable, but that's exactly what you're doing, and others too, you just don't see it. You seem to believe(I may likely be wrong, I don't know, I'm trying to take words at face value as often as possible without making too many assumptions) that they bring nothing, because they do not boost the economy in a method that you believe is helpful. As a landowner, I disagree with that assessment. They do, very much, boost MY economy, without even trying, it occurs naturally as a byproduct of the games themselves. More traffic, brings more people, whether folks want to admit that or not, more popular places(these regions/parcels with the games hosted on them) bring in more players, more players bring about more exposure and more of whatever benefit(s) the landowners deem, well, beneficial to them. Yes, it may bring players that offer little to nothing at all tangible (or the sl equivalent of such) to  a landowner, but it ALSO brings everyone else....including all the people some seem to think offer more value, more worth, to the sl grid, including its economy(ie those that buy things, rent/buy land, interact, etc.).

So, yeah...they do offer something, something you may not understand, something *I* may not be able to explain, but it's something., and yes that something DOES boost the economy.  When I have land with a store on it, and also these games, I get all kinds of visitors, players of those games, both those that will wander around, buy things, boost my own income...as well as those that do not. The one thing ALL of them have in common, is offering me advertisement(you have to understand how these games work to understand how advertising can be gained even by someone that does no verbal or textual advertising of your location), offering me traffic, boosting my position as a landowner within the games that offer such on their websites, giving my land exposure...and to ME, someone that nearly always has some kind of business on land along with the games(not always, but, nearly) THAT is value, that boosts the economy, because it boosts mine, and I damn well know I contribute to it.

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Tari Landar

[Phil Deakins]

This isn't a response to anyone in particular.

Almost all SL users came to SL for their own personal ends, and not to add anything to SL, or for anyone else's, or anything 's, benefit. And I see no reason why other people shouldn't come for that same reason - personal benefit. The benefit is in the form of enjoyment and/or profit, but mostly enjoyment.

All this talk about whether or not people add anything to SL is irrelevant, imo. Hardly anyobody ever came for that reason. We came to see if it interested us and, if it did, we stayed. Some people managed to take money out, and we all admired that. Some of those managed to make an RL livelihood from SL, and we admired that too. Other people put money in, and again we admire it. Still others neither put money in nor take money out, and that's also admirable.

So I see no reason at all why people ought not to come to SL with the sole intention of trying help their RL livelihoods. It has never been incumbent on anybody, including all of us, to only come to SL if we add benefit to SL. Nobody reading this came to SL with the intention of adding benefit to it. We all came for our own personal benefit. So there is no reason to find fault with, or even frown on, anyone who also comes for their own personal benefit.

So I say, make the video and, if it helps some people to put food on the table, I'm all for it, and I'd be more than happy if it succeeds.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Chase01]

For the purposes of this discussion Tari, I was thinking about it. As everyone else here did; including you. So stop preaching your "holier than thou." Did you not read my posts. I wouldn't welcome the farming community in because of the fraud, scam, abuse, and spam that follows them. We are not talking about everyday users; we're talking about professional farmers. Enjoy your bots.

Here is an older GDC presentation on Gold Farming, its effect and the things they've done in those platforms. Not everything directly translates, but many things have a similar equivalent here.

https://www.slideshare.net/EnMasseEnt/developers-vs-cybercriminals-protecting-your-mmo-from-online-crime-3589535

Edited October 31, 2017 by Chase01

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Chase01 said:

For the purposes of this discussion Tari, I was thinking about it. As everyone else here did; including you. So stop preaching your "holier than thou." Did you not read my posts. I wouldn't welcome the farming community in because of the fraud, scam, abuse, and spam that follows them. We are not talking about everyday users; we're talking about professional farmers. Enjoy your bots.

Here is an older GDC presentation on Gold Farming, its effect and the things they've done in those platforms. Not everything directly translates, but many things have a similar equivalent here.

https://www.slideshare.net/EnMasseEnt/developers-vs-cybercriminals-protecting-your-mmo-from-online-crime-3589535

There is no holier than thou anything on my end. I am sharing an opinion from someone that has participated on both sides of this fence AND also done gold farming. I thought the perspective would be helpful to a discussion about such things, rather than simply assuming I know what these things are like. In fact, the holier than thou crap is coming from the opposite side. It's coming from people that don't even understand HOW these games work, function, how players impact the games themselves...and most importantly, why such a thing would only share some, minor, similarities with gold farming but are not as similar as some people seem to believe. It really is NOT the same as some folks think. The impact gold farmers have on other games, can be quite severe, I know this, and THAT is why the exact same effect you see in those games, the same repercussions we see in those games from farming...is *not* in any way, applicable in sl...because it just doesn't happen like that. 

It simply does not work the same, the effect is the exact opposite of farming in other games. "Farming" in these particular games in sl, does not end up with even remotely similar results. Do you want to know what things ARE more similar to gold farming than these hunting/gathering/collecting/etc.. games in sl, because they have very similar results(over saturation, less availability of resources, etc..)?  Breedables and gacha reselling do. Those things, can also be very lucrative, but they also have the exact same effect as gold farming in other games do. 

[Chase01]

17 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

You seem to believe(I may likely be wrong, I don't know, I'm trying to take words at face value as often as possible without making too many assumptions) that they bring nothing, because they do not boost the economy in a method that you believe is helpful. As a landowner, I disagree with that assessment.

 

That's because you keep looking at it how it might benefit the individual user and not how it impacts the greater good of the platform.  Here is an example, the people who buy gold, items, or accounts from these farmers would all see it as a benefit to them individually (because it is). In your case it might be generating traffic. However, that individual benefit comes at the cost to the users, including but not limited too; inflation, account hacking and so on. That is a fact.

You keep going back to these games, do you really believe that they would just stop there? In the farming industry; generating clean money (as they call it) from farming is the most expensive means of obtaining revenue. The cheapest is from account hacking. So the games would probably be the most expensive method of generating revenue for those companies.

Item depreciation can also occur. In MMO's, the farmers use item duping; in SL we have copybots. If they copybotted items to resell on the MP,  that can then cause items to loose value as well (quantity and item dependent). I'd suspect the gacha market in particular would be highly susceptible for a number of reasons. As an individual user, I am then effected by how much return I make for the items I want to re-sell.

Values in the market do fluctuate naturally, and that isn't a bad thing. It is adding that unnatural element to the equation that things start going bad. The farmers operate with hundreds of thousands of accounts, or more (however many accounts as necessary). With that said, there are more similarities then you think there are.

My beef isn't with people coming here and wanting to help themselves financially, but who would want to invite the farming community in with open arms when all those other things come with them. No thanks!

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Chase01

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Chase01 said:

That's because you keep looking at it how it might benefit the individual user and not how it impacts the greater good of the platform.  Here is an example, the people who buy gold, items, or accounts from these farmers would all see it as a benefit to them individually (because it is). In your case it might be generating traffic. However, that individual benefit comes at the cost to the users, including but not limited too; inflation, account hacking and so on. That is a fact.

You keep going back to these games, do you really believe that they would just stop there? In the farming industry; generating clean money (as they call it) from farming is the most expensive means of obtaining revenue. The cheapest is from account hacking. So the games would probably be the most expensive method of generating revenue for those companies.

Item depreciation can also occur. In MMO's, the farmers use item duping; in SL we have copybots. If they copybotted items to resell on the MP,  that can then cause items to loose value as well (quantity and item dependent). I'd suspect the gacha market in particular would be highly susceptible for a number of reasons. As an individual user, I am then effected by how much return I make for the items I want to re-sell.

Values in the market do fluctuate naturally, and that isn't a bad thing. It is adding that unnatural element to the equation that things start going bad. The farmers operate with hundreds of thousands of accounts, or more (however many accounts as necessary). With that said, there are more similarities then you think there are.

My beef isn't with people coming here and wanting to help themselves financially, but who would want to invite the farming community in with open arms when all those other things come with them. No thanks!

 

 

 

I can understand your point of view. I was discussing these games solely, and how they compare to gold farming in MMOs, because that's what the topic was about. It is my experience that the two are not comparable enough to be a cause for concern. 

Now, if we want to discuss the items, saturation, and how other users can be negatively affected by such things-which are a byproduct of farming and can be extremely negative for the grid as a whole(I think that is something most of us agree on), I believe a better comparison would be to use resellers(whatever it is they are selling, breedables, templates-or things like them-gacha, etc). Because the effects people seem to be most worried about, are byproducts of those things, not these games. Items are not a part of these games, they are not "tangible"(in the sl sense), you don't keep them, you click things, you "gather", without actually having anything, you aren't reselling these items to others, or taking them away from others, you aren't saturating the grid with more than it can handle, or the game communities either. It's just not how they work. It actually IS a lot different than farming gold. Maybe I can explain it by explaining how one of the games works..the gems in the realms. I am sure you probably understand, but others might not. In the realms you just collect "gems", after you collect them, they do not actually go into your inventory, they are not "tangible", you can then go to the area where you can "turn them in", and you get lindens for it. There is no saturation, there are no actual gems in your possession..nothing like that(unlike gold farming, which requires "items"). You can then take your lindens, and cash them out. The only affect you have on others, is that any gem you collect, they cannot...but that exists regardless. The popularity of these games absolutely affects the amount of resources available to the grid. A lack of interest in these games is one of the main reasons they disappear, and landowners stop hosting them. When they're popular, more folks are interested, more landowners offer these games, and there are more resources for all.  It's really how they all function. Since there is no "tangible" items, there is no negative effect until or unless the game stops being popular. When more folks play, everyone can make more money. Folks that love playing these games, welcome in new players, because they know that a side effect of doing so, means we all get more. It's honestly just how it works, whether it makes sense or not. 

With these games, many of the concerns I have seen raised, are not actually concerns, because they are not byproducts of the games, the players of said games, or even those that only come in, play, cash out. If they were a byproduct of it, we would have seen it by now. But by sheer nature of how they function, it just doesn't work that way.  That is how it has always functioned, again, because of the nature of the mechanics of the games, even with massive influxes(yes, thousands and thousands) of new players. I have come to the conclusion that I am explaining this terribly. But, that said, I still stand by my opinion, my experience, and the experience of others for the last decade with these games. I really can't agree that the same effects we see in MMOs with farming, are ever likely to be even remotely a problem in regards to these games. I just can't. Unless someone can show me something that suggests otherwise, where it actually HAS during these massive influxes, I will have to stick with what I know. Now..other things...oh heck yes, they very much can be precisely what folks are worried about, and we should be cautious with welcoming such things in with open arms..but I think at this point, we might be well past that...because they already affect the grid negatively(again..resellers, etc..come into play here)

I do want to say something else though..the concerns I mentioned, being a problem with things such as "tangible" items in sl, like breedables, templates, gachas, etc....are not interesting to gold farmers. While they ARE a concern for the grid as a whole, for a gold farmer, the ends doesn't justify the means. If someone wants to come into sl, make money, and cash out...and that alone, those things are not going to be on that person's radar. Why? Because it would necessitate more involvement with the grid than these folks want. They want the least amount of work, the least amount of involvement, for the biggest gain. They aren't going to seek out these other methods. The games are a relatively easy method, though time consuming(grinding...ugh), that requires very little involvement and interaction with the grid, and NO items to unload/saturate the grid with.  The other things though..yeah, they more often than not require an investment of some sort, far beyond the desires of gold farmers.  So, yes, I do believe that most of these folks who would come in, regardless of how many of them, would stop at these games and not venture into other areas, because it would require too big an investment(time, resources, money) for too little of a gain. Farming is all about the gain, period, and the fastest and easiest way you can manage, the better your odds of doing well.

[Theresa Tennyson]

7 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

 

Now, if we want to discuss the items, saturation, and how other users can be negatively affected by such things-which are a byproduct of farming and can be extremely negative for the grid as a whole(I think that is something most of us agree on), I believe a better comparison would be to use resellers(whatever it is they are selling, breedables, templates-or things like them-gacha, etc). Because the effects people seem to be most worried about, are byproducts of those things, not these games. Items are not a part of these games, they are not "tangible"(in the sl sense), you don't keep them, you click things, you "gather", without actually having anything, you aren't reselling these items to others, or taking them away from others, you aren't saturating the grid with more than it can handle, or the game communities either. It's just not how they work. It actually IS a lot different than farming gold. Maybe I can explain it by explaining how one of the games works..the gems in the realms. I am sure you probably understand, but others might not. In the realms you just collect "gems", after you collect them, they do not actually go into your inventory, they are not "tangible", you can then go to the area where you can "turn them in", and you get lindens for it. There is no saturation, there are no actual gems in your possession..nothing like that(unlike gold farming, which requires "items"). You can then take your lindens, and cash them out. The only affect you have on others, is that any gem you collect, they cannot...but that exists regardless. The popularity of these games absolutely affects the amount of resources available to the grid. A lack of interest in these games is one of the main reasons they disappear, and landowners stop hosting them. When they're popular, more folks are interested, more landowners offer these games, and there are more resources for all.  It's really how they all function. Since there is no "tangible" items, there is no negative effect until or unless the game stops being popular. When more folks play, everyone can make more money. Folks that love playing these games, welcome in new players, because they know that a side effect of doing so, means we all get more. It's honestly just how it works, whether it makes sense or not. 

 

As far as I know,  in order for the game to have collectables to be cash-in-able, landowners have to "load" value into the items they're collecting. What happens when more people want to collect things than landowners are willing to pay for? Isn't that the definition of a saturated market? (Linden Realms is somewhat different because Linden Lab can create Lindens by fiat.)

[Paul Hexem]

A lot of this thread seems to be assuming that "gold farmers" would only come here and play the gem games.

Chase has a good point; these people aren't in the business of farming gold, they're in the business of making money, by any means necessary. Farming gold just happens to be most popular method that they use.

Gold farmers also use fraud, hacking, phishing, and theft to make money. And in SL, since LL doesn't take responsibility for virtually anything, they'd have free reign. I guarantee the MP would explode with empty box deliveries, among other things.

An influx of gold farmers into SL would absolutely devalue and destabilize the entire platform even more than it is already.

 

Edit: To be honest, I suspect the only reason we don't see them here doing it already is security by obscurity (SL doesn't have any other real security, after all)- not enough users to warrant the effort. Not like an MMO with 10 million players.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Gadget Portal

[Bree Giffen]

I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill. First, I don't think any video encouraging Venezuelans to join SL and make money by gem collecting will actually create enough of a new population to affect the SL economy. Second, is there really any good way of making money in services in SL these days? From past 'how do I make money?' threads I know that there are dancers, escorts and club managers and you need a fairly good familiarity of how SL works. Thirdly, I don't believe any 'Venezuelan Initiative' is going to start a rash of account hacking and phishing. Hackers are out there but if they aren't already attacking SL I don't think they will start because of this. A rise in copybotting will also not occur and copybotting is pretty well taken care of by LL already.

[Tari Landar]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

As far as I know,  in order for the game to have collectables to be cash-in-able, landowners have to "load" value into the items they're collecting. What happens when more people want to collect things than landowners are willing to pay for? Isn't that the definition of a saturated market? (Linden Realms is somewhat different because Linden Lab can create Lindens by fiat.)

When interest in these games wanes, that's exactly what happens, landowners no longer find hosting the games to be beneficial, there are less resources available for players. When interest is normal, or grows, more landowners find that hosting the games are beneficial. No, I wouldn't call that a saturated market, though perhaps I am completely wrong in thinking that. A saturated market(I wouldn't call these communities markets, but I get the term used in this instance means something slightly different than typical), in this instance, would require there to be MORE resources available than there are players that desire to have them, or willing to put in the effort to get/gather/collect/click/whatever, on them.  I would call a game that has more players than resources unbalanced, perhaps on its way out even, but I wouldn't call it saturated..well, not in this context anyway.

[Chase01]

I agree, a singular video isn't going to garner the attention of an entire community. What Tari and I were debating was what their impact on the community would be if they did come in numbers. 

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Chase01

[Kaytie Aie]

Yes.