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Medhue Simoni

Animesh Beta testing is HERE!!

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8 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

Why are you posting here? You will not see it anyways. And no reason to read your posts since you write about stuff you'll never get to know. Too funny.

Of course I'll see it. How will I be able to derender it if I can't see it? I'll go, oh cute, a dancing elephant.. derendered... next

As for why I'm posting here , I was offering my opinion on second life's next big thing.

If you like, you can mute me so you'll never ever have to read any of my posts again. I'm sure we'll both be happier if you do.

:)

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as far as it goes, it will make a more responsive experience for those who want to enjoy SL with all the features that it has to offer.

for those who can't enjoy all the features, it would still make a more responsive experience when the owners of those places decide to replace the current method of animation with the new method, since the current animated objects will not consume more internet bandwidth than its current counterparts, and the viewer will spend less resources drawing the frames of the object.

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3 hours ago, Canoro Philipp said:

for those who can't enjoy all the features, it would still make a more responsive experience when the owners of those places decide to replace the current method of animation with the new method, since the current animated objects will not consume more internet bandwidth than its current counterparts, and the viewer will spend less resources drawing the frames of the object.

With Animesh's current 20k tri count cap and the +200 land impact hit, I don't see land owners or creators replacing anything just yet.

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After reading the entire thread, I have two thoughts:

1 - Animesh looks promising and with proper development by users should prove a benefit. And ...

2 - *giggle* Y'all love to fight as much as three cats in a burlap bag. No one wins, but the fur does fly a bit.

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7 minutes ago, Darrius Gothly said:

Y'all love to fight as much as three cats in a burlap bag. No one wins, but the fur does fly a bit.

This ^^^  

Perfect analogy

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9 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

With Animesh's current 20k tri count cap and the +200 land impact hit, I don't see land owners or creators replacing anything just yet.

As long as the land impact isn't coming down significantly, I don't even start experimenting with it. Well, maybe just a proof of concept item, but that'll be it.

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On 10/21/2017 at 8:45 AM, Solar Legion said:

There is no need to go out and buy an entire replacement card unless the one you have is woefully out of date. There are aftermarket cooler options you could purchase to replace the dead fan.

well, the card is a nvidea 705, not the greatest but that's what was offered with the low end Dell I bought. I was just happy it wasn't an integrated card like in all my previous computers.

I'd like to buy a 1060, but I'm leery of upsetting the elves when i have to open the box to replace the card.

And I have a makeshift cooler option,  I have two external fans directed into the vent holes of the box.

That along with lowering my SL settings was enough to prevent my computer from going to sleep while running SL to prevent the card from self destructing.

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I'm uploading a mesh to the test grid to test animesh..

I can't click the animated mesh check box, even though the mesh IS rigged, is under 20,000 triangles by a lot, and I am in the animesh test region...

 

Do I have to use the base avatar skeleton or something? because nothing I am doing seems to be fixing the problem.

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48 minutes ago, Techwolf77 said:

I'm uploading a mesh to the test grid to test animesh..

I can't click the animated mesh check box, even though the mesh IS rigged, is under 20,000 triangles by a lot, and I am in the animesh test region...

 

Do I have to use the base avatar skeleton or something? because nothing I am doing seems to be fixing the problem.

Does it work if you upload one of the test dae's on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-139234 ?

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Despite all the bitching and moaning from people who don't seem to know what they're talking about, this looks really cool and I look forward to seeing what people can do with it. Anything that allows users a proper way of doing something (instead of hamfisting it into the game with heavy objects and massive script loads) is a great improvement. I'm also glad to see LL continuing to add new content to SL.

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5 hours ago, Techwolf77 said:

Do I have to use the base avatar skeleton or something?

If you mean can you upload mesh rigged to custom skeletons then the answer is no.  You have to use the SL avatar rig to create your animesh objects.

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22 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

With Animesh's current 20k tri count cap and the +200 land impact hit, I don't see land owners or creators replacing anything just yet.

A big LI would much constrain the applications, that's for sure. Similarly with Pathfinding, the minimum 15 LI imposed on characters seemed to discourage adoption for exactly those simple applications where that limited technology might be useful. But a Pathfinding character came with some hefty overhead, so maybe that LI was kinda necessary.

And similarly a fairly big LI may be appropriate for the whole Animesh mechanism, which seems very heavyweight, based on animation of a full avatar skeleton. That's all fine for the examples we've seen (basically decorative NPCs), but massive overkill for many applications that would benefit from a simpler way to deform some simple mesh geometry.

I'm thinking of a little script I wrote for a friend who wanted mesh jellyfish to swim randomly in a tank. Both the jellyfish and the motion were quite simple, the trick being to convincingly coordinate the simple animation with the semi-random path and speed of locomotion. The point is, they were like 2 LI per jellyfish, and a single script could run a bunch of them. I'd have loved a way to flex a simpler mesh rather than texture-animate through faces of a more complex one, but it would be crazy irresponsible to foist on viewers a full animated avatar skeleton rig for each little jellyfish. Fun little applications like this are simply never going to be appropriate for Animesh.

And that's fine, but there's an important grey area: On balance, will pets and breedables - now nearly "jellyfish simple" - get laggier as they adopt Animesh? And so is a pretty big LI necessary to constrain that?

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2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

 

And that's fine, but there's an important grey area: On balance, will pets and breedables - now nearly "jellyfish simple" - get laggier as they adopt Animesh? And so is a pretty big LI necessary to constrain that?

hmm animesh will be laggier than what we have now? 

I guess my original comment  was valid after all.

I expect apologies from everyone that attacked me over it

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36 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

hmm animesh will be laggier than what we have now? 

That all depends on "what we have now" which was the whole point of my post. Replacing simple mesh animation with Animesh on a grand scale would be laggy, yeah, and hence we'll get some TBD extra Land Impact assigned to Animesh items. On the other hand, full puppeteering  of avatar-complexity mesh is a freakin' nightmare of lag right now, and Animesh can rein that in.

So at scale, a too-small Land Impact for Animesh would be an issue if every currently simple breedable gets replaced by a more complex Animesh.

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3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

A big LI would much constrain the applications, that's for sure. Similarly with Pathfinding, the minimum 15 LI imposed on characters seemed to discourage adoption for exactly those simple applications where that limited technology might be useful. But a Pathfinding character came with some hefty overhead, so maybe that LI was kinda necessary.

And similarly a fairly big LI may be appropriate for the whole Animesh mechanism, which seems very heavyweight, based on animation of a full avatar skeleton. That's all fine for the examples we've seen (basically decorative NPCs), but massive overkill for many applications that would benefit from a simpler way to deform some simple mesh geometry.

I'm thinking of a little script I wrote for a friend who wanted mesh jellyfish to swim randomly in a tank. Both the jellyfish and the motion were quite simple, the trick being to convincingly coordinate the simple animation with the semi-random path and speed of locomotion. The point is, they were like 2 LI per jellyfish, and a single script could run a bunch of them. I'd have loved a way to flex a simpler mesh rather than texture-animate through faces of a more complex one, but it would be crazy irresponsible to foist on viewers a full animated avatar skeleton rig for each little jellyfish. Fun little applications like this are simply never going to be appropriate for Animesh.

And that's fine, but there's an important grey area: On balance, will pets and breedables - now nearly "jellyfish simple" - get laggier as they adopt Animesh? And so is a pretty big LI necessary to constrain that?

I'm guessing that the potential for lag from animesh is linked more closely to the number of polygons being transformed during animation than it is the number of bones being animated? 

If that's not the case then couldn't they examine each mesh object and take into account the number of bones that a mesh is rigged to (since it's now possible to upload mesh that includes only a partial rig), and use that number as a modifier when calculating the land impact for each mesh rather than basing the calculation on triangle count alone, so that simpler mesh objects rigged to only 3 or 4 bones are less heavily penalized than those that are rigged to the full avatar skeleton?

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5 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I'm guessing that the potential for lag from animesh is linked more closely to the number of polygons being transformed during animation than it is the number of bones being animated? 

Sounds correct, but I don't have any measurements for any of this. I'm supposing it's like rendering an animated avatar, and I'm supposing that's costly because there are a lot of surfaces moving around every frame.

Also, beyond rendering complexity: For as trivial as those jellyfish were to render, their locomotion pushed a lot of updates over the network. For most pets and breedables, much of that could be by Animesh animation, hence requiring way fewer updates, so that network benefit might offset some rendering lag.

So now I'm thinking, given enough animations, the jellyfish too might have moved "randomly enough", and even if that didn't completely offset the extra rendering, it could be a much easier bit of content to create. I mean, instead of all the offline math I did to figure out movement constraints and the scripting to make it happen, with an Animesh approach it could be just some animations to create and trivially script together. It seems that could be packaged into a pretty accessible toolkit for creators.

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4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

So now I'm thinking, given enough animations, the jellyfish too might have moved "randomly enough", and even if that didn't completely offset the extra rendering, it could be a much easier bit of content to create. I mean, instead of all the offline math I did to figure out movement constraints and the scripting to make it happen, with an Animesh approach it could be just some animations to create and trivially script together. It seems that could be packaged into a pretty accessible toolkit for creators.

I think it would help if there were more scripted control over the playback of animations.  Something similar to the level of control we have with texture animation, such as the ability to choose custom start and end frames, set playback rate (preferably with interpolation to guarantee smooth motion rather than simply changing the number of frames displayed per second), options like loop, reverse and ping-pong and possibly even some control over the ease in and ease out settings for each animation which would make seamless blending of animations possible. 

That would allow for the creation of more "random" movement without the need to upload a large number of animations,  and also make it a lot easier to create more realistic moving animesh objects since you wouldn't need separate animations to accommodate different movement speeds, you could control the speed that wheels/limbs are being animated based on the speed at which the object is travelling making it a lot easier to avoid situations where objects appear to slide across the ground, etc.

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On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 3:53 AM, Qie Niangao said:

I'd have loved a way to flex a simpler mesh rather than texture-animate through faces of a more complex one, but it would be crazy irresponsible to foist on viewers a full animated avatar skeleton rig for each little jellyfish. Fun little applications like this are simply never going to be appropriate for Animesh.

Only bones that move have any kind of measurable effect on the system. Using a full rig, you could rig and animation dozens of jelly fish in the tank, all with simple animations, and a simpler script.

Texture or mesh swapping is many times less efficient. 1 texture or mesh swap could be dozens of complex animations using every bone in the rig. The scripts to swap out this stuff has to call crap every .1 seconds or so, unlike animesh.

The triangle count limit and land impact are just initial place holders to ensure the testing regions don't get overloaded. It is likely that triangle counts will be tied to land impact, meaning that a large range of products will be possible.

The whole point of the user group meeting is to test and figure out the best way to implement this feature. Please come to the meetings.

Now..... what say you?

Edited by Medhue Simoni

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On 22 October 2017 at 7:08 PM, arton Rotaru said:

As long as the land impact isn't coming down significantly, I don't even start experimenting with it. Well, maybe just a proof of concept item, but that'll be it.

There's a rigged mesh avatar, from 4 or 5 years ago, made by Coyote Seattle, which has an LI of 16and isn't that poly heavy, certainly within the 20k limit for the beta...

I suspect it wouldn't be that hard reworking it as an 'animesh' item... and if the LI was just the LI of the acytual mesh, the resulting scripted animesh NPC bots, ... Well, you could rez at least 10 on a 512 parcel..., or

over 1200 on a full region,

imagine the lag on a sim set to limit it's self to 50 avatars, if it had 1200 animesh npc bots scampering about...

Adding that automatic +200 LI hit will limit the things to less than 100 per region, it's a safety feature we should all be glad of...
 

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28 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Adding that automatic +200 LI hit will limit the things to less than 100 per region, it's a safety feature we should all be glad of...

Yeah, I know why it's in place. I just don't make things that are 3 LI currently, into 203. Rez 5 of those on a homestead and it's 15 LI vs 1015 LI. Thanks, but no thanks.

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