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Storm Clarence wrote:

You seem to have plenty of empathy for situations where non-hetros have experienced trials in life.  Do not tell me I never knew the horrors of childhood bullying, that a hetero couple over a certain age does not need to resort to other countries to adopt children,  that a hetero couple (unmarried) must not also argue a case for being by that same bedside?  It is you that trivialized the needs of the gay community by stepping in to speak for them.  I see it as another form of activism for the sake of being an activist.   I am not 'threatened or oppressed' by the gay community in SL or RL.


This paragraph contains the nub of the issue, Storm.  Yes, many heterosexuals have experienced bullying.  To some degree, I did myself, as a teen.  Many heterosexuals may have problems adopting children for a variety of reasons.  And, while common law heterosexual relationships are MUCH more likely to recognized than gay ones, I'll agree that in some jurisdictions unmarried straights may not have the same rights with regard to their loved ones as married couples do.

There are unquestionably shared experiences with which both heterosexuals and homosexuals can identify, and about which they can share insights.

But there is a whole class of experience that is unique to the LGBTI community that you -- and I -- can't possibly understand fully.  Because while heterosexual youth may get beaten up, they aren't beaten up for BEING heterosexual.  Heterosexual children and adults don't have to hide their sexuality from their parents, friends, or coworkers, as is the daily reality for a great many gays.  And heterosexual couples don't face anything like the same legal and social restrictions imposed in most places upon homosexual couples. Do you not understand that these are challenges and obstacles that are NOT shared by those whose sexuality has been privileged by centuries of intolerance?

It is the uniqueness of these experiences that is the point.  Whether or not it is desireable to have a separate LGBTI forum, such a forum is entirely justifiable, for the simple reason that there are things about living as a lesbian, gay, bi, or transgendered person that are really facts of life ONLY for those within that community.  An LGBTI forum would be a place where these unique issues and problems might be discussed by those who experience them as a daily reality.

I'm not actively arguing for an LGBTI forum:  those issues could indeed also be discussed here, in this forum.  I hope they are, if only because it would indicate that those who face homophobia in SL feel comfortable enough here to talk about them.  Nor need an LGBTI forum become a "gay ghetto":  heterosexuals and gays have plenty of shared experiences.

But to argue, as you certainly seem to be, that really "we're all the same," and that there is no justification for a separate forum, because heterosexuals also get bullied and beaten up, represents a failure to recognize and acknowledge the unique problems and challenges faced by the LGBTI community -- problems and challenges that derive not from that community itself, but from the intolerance and homophobia of a society still dominated by the notion that heterosexuality is "normal" and homosexuality an aberration.  We are not "all the same," because It is not a level playing field, not by a long shot.

So, yeah . . . as I have already acknowledged, as a heterosexual, I am in no position to determine whether or not there should be a separate LGBTI forum.  These are not my realities.

And they're not yours either, so perhaps you should be a bit more circumspect about your airy dismissal of the necessity of such a venue for discussion.

 

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

 

 

But to argue, as you certainly seem to be, that really "we're all the same," and that there is no justification for a separate forum, because heterosexuals
also
get bullied and beaten up, represents a failure to recognize and acknowledge the unique problems and challenges faced by the LGBTI community -- problems and challenges that derive not from that community itself, but from the intolerance and homophobia of a society still dominated by the notion that heterosexuality is "normal" and homosexuality an aberration.  We are not "all the same," because It is
not
a level playing field, not by a long shot.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I absolutely agree with you  on all of your points  and personally  I think there  should be a separate forum not hidden  but one where people can  easily post and reply in without a  feeling  of censorship or that  being  heterosexual will be the only topic addressed.. I do notice other then your well written threads and  Storms heterosexual  threads there are none  that  are for  about   the LGBTI community .  I do hope this changes soon  :smileyhappy:
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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Quinn Morani wrote:

I have a vague recollection of loving fried eggs mashed with a fork when I was very small. I have no idea what happened to turn me into an egg-hater, but I can't even stand the smell of them. On the bright side, that leaves more for everyone else. You and Dillon can split my share.

 

Well .. okay .. I guess it's only fair. I'm allergic to chocolate, so you can have my share of the chocolate ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

eggs.

/me grabs the chocolate eggs and runs before you can change your mind.

 

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Storm Clarence wrote:

 

Quinn Morani wrote:

Deviled eggs? I have a hate relationship with eggs. That's it, I'll have to cut ties with both of you. Rats. I liked you both so well.  :smileywink:

This post is less than 140bytes, don't you think it is more suited for twitter?

 

I'm so sorry, Storm. I guess I missed the guidelines on post length. I'll try to do better next time, honest. :smileywink:

 

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

 <snip>


So, yeah . . . as I have already acknowledged, as a heterosexual, I am in no position to determine whether or not there should be a separate LGBTI forum.  These are not my realities.


And they're not yours either, so perhaps you should be a bit more circumspect about your airy dismissal of the necessity of such a venue for discussion.

 

 

Nowhere in my OP do I dismiss the need/want/desire of "such a venue for discussion."  My OP was about the heterosexual male.  I do not and would not ever attempt to speak for the gay community.  Why do you feel such a need to call attention to issues the 'gay male' is confronted with when you are not male or a gay male - and in a 'heterosexual male' thread.  Are you tying yourself to a fence again protesting a heterosexual thread in the Identities and Relationship sub-forum?  Perhaps it is your airy dismissal of a topic that you are not in a position to speak on. 

I do not attempt to squash your words or opinions - perhaps I ask you to be more circumspect in your activist activities.

ETA The more you respond in the context you do reflects the underlying motivations of the feminist as described in my OP: The stifling of the heterosexual male.

 

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Storm Clarence wrote:

ETA The more you respond in the context you do reflects the underlying motivations of the feminist as described in my OP: The stifling of the heterosexual male. 

 

Hmm .. now that's an interesting concept.

See, I live in the southeastern USA. Around these parts there is a long standing history of persecution and discrimination for a whole passle of reasons. When I moved here from the mountain regions of the western USA, it took me a bit to adjust to the blatant bad attitudes and prejudices that sit right on the surface here. TBH .. it was amazing to me to be so hated because of my race. Now that I've been here nearly 20 years, I'm a lot more familiar with a lot of the ways folks try to put you down or demean you for basically nonsensical reasons.

From that perspective then, I have to say I didn't read any sort of "put down" toward hetero males in Scylla's post. I do see a very vibrant championing of her own personal skills and talents, and having read a lot of her posts, I've also seen a number of times where she praises the female gender and feels that they need not be subservient to anyone for any reason.

But to me this is a lot different than actively attempting to "stifle" someone based on their gender or sexual preferences. If anything, she seemed to be quite circumspect in her even-handed approach to people of all preferences and not at all whining that "it's the straight males' fault". But even if she did?

I've had folks try and put me down many times in my life. When they do, I figure it's up to me to either accept or reject their opinion. Prior to moving here, the putdowns were because of my size and general class (skinny geek), or my glasses (four-eyes), my intelligence (know-it-all) or any of a number of other reasons. I pretty much decided their attempts to push me down were because they felt bad about themselves and had no other way to feel good other than to make everyone else seem lower too. And I'm afraid that don't work with me.

However, back to the point, If Scylla was trying to stifle the hetero male .. and I dispute that she was .. that's her problem and not mine or yours Storm. I don't judge myself based on her perceptions of me .. or the perceptions of anyone that might have ulterior motives for rendering a biased opinion. If anything, such actions would make me focus harder, redouble my efforts .. and work to prove my own opinion right and theirs wrong.

Do I feel stifled because women like Scylla are smarter, more educated or better than me in certain things? Heck no. There's TONS of people better at stuff than me. (Plumbing and car repairs are two that spring to mind.) If, as I've seen with Scylla, their talents can be united with mine to create a better outcome .. then their better skills are a bonus to me just as mine are to her.

So really it comes down to .. cooperation and a unified solution, instead of a competitive "I'm better than you" response that (this time at least) got labeled as stifling.

At least .. that's how I think of it.

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You are making a tremendous leap here Darrius.  Are you playing the 'race card'?  Carefully crafted words that speak of put-downs, prejudices, and hatred; and attempt to map those back to my words has always made me 'suspicious' of the motivation of the speaker or writer.   I did not write any of those words.  I am not clever enough to 'disguise' those words in my words, either.  Nor would I because it is not how I think and reason.

In addition, thank you for entertaining me with Scylla's voice.  If there is one thing I do know about Scylla: she would much prefer to use her own voice.  And, she is quite good at it.   She is much more capable than I.  It may be *easy* for you to 'speak' for her or even post into her - for me it is not.    

You did not answer the OP.  You passed around some spices and then answered for Scylla.  She will undoubtedly thank you for your compliments.  I'll thank you for the paprika.

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Hmm .. now that's an interesting concept.

See, I live in the southeastern USA. Around these parts there is a long standing history of persecution and discrimination for a whole passle of reasons. When I moved here from the mountain regions of the western USA, it took me a bit to adjust to the blatant bad attitudes and prejudices that sit right on the surface here. TBH .. it was amazing to me to be so hated because of my race. Now that I've been here nearly 20 years, I'm a lot more familiar with a lot of the ways folks try to put you down or demean you for basically nonsensical reasons.


This part of your post was of interest to me, Darrius.  I, too, live in the SE USA, have for years and, while I was not born in this region, my mother was and her family still resides here.  I started coming here in the 60s as a child for vacations and I have seen huge changes over the years.  While there still exist biases and prejudices here, I say these things exist everywhere.  This place is no better or worse than other places.  It is just different.

 

I have seen strong prejudices in action in large cities in the NE, in mountain areas, in the SW, even in the midwest where I am native.  What I take exception to is your representation that this region is worse than others.  Several tornadoes hit my state last weekend and it is heartening but not amazing to see so many reach out to help those in need, no matter their age, sex, race, religion.

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Storm Clarence wrote:

You are making a tremendous leap here Darrius.  Are you playing the 'race card'?  Carefully crafted words that speak of put-downs, prejudices, and hatred; and attempt to map those back to my words has always made me 'suspicious' of the motivation of the speaker or writer.   I did not write any of those words.  I am not clever enough to 'disguise' those words in my words, either.  Nor would I because it is not how I think and reason.

In addition, thank you for entertaining me with Scylla's voice.  If there is one thing I do know about Scylla: she would much prefer to use her own voice.  And, she is quite good at it.   She is much more capable than I.  It may be *easy* for you to 'speak' for her or even post into her - for me it is not.    

You did not answer the OP.  You passed around some spices and then answered for Scylla.  She will undoubtedly thank you for your compliments.  I'll thank you for the paprika. 

 

You're welcome (for the paprika).

The "Race Card"? No, I was countering your play of the "Gender Card". And you needn't be "suspicious" of my motivation. I will quite happily tell you my motivation .. I object to anyone putting someone down because of those attributes about themselves they could not choose. None of us "asked" to be the gender we are, or the race we are, or how big are our noses .. those are things about us that were decided at conception and are outside even our parents' control. So when I see someone basing their opinion of another on those attributes, I call them out for the cowards they are.

If you want to disparage someone, pick on their choices, their decisions, the things about themselves they DID control (or do control). But belittling someone for things they never influenced is both shallow and despicable.

You are right, I know that Scylla is quite capable of defending herself. It was not my intent to "defend her honor" or any other such "noble deed". Nope, I interpreted for you what I read and what I heard in her post .. and how I felt about it .. because I felt you not only didn't "get it", but if you did .. you were choosing to ignore it and resort to bigotry and discrimination based on gender .. and NOT on her opinion.

However you are also wrong. In my first post on this thread I did address the OP .. in my own particular way (some might say I added my own spice LOL). In a non-confrontational oblique manner, I stated that being different or being used for one particular attribute isn't oppression, it is merely capitalizing on that attribute. I'm sorry you didn't understand me though .. next time I will speak in simpler terms so as not to go over your head.

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Venus Petrov wrote:

 

Darrius Gothly wrote:

Hmm .. now that's an interesting concept.

See, I live in the southeastern USA. Around these parts there is a long standing history of persecution and discrimination for a whole passle of reasons. When I moved here from the mountain regions of the western USA, it took me a bit to adjust to the blatant bad attitudes and prejudices that sit right on the surface here. TBH .. it was amazing to me to be so hated because of my race. Now that I've been here nearly 20 years, I'm a lot more familiar with a lot of the ways folks try to put you down or demean you for basically nonsensical reasons.

This part of your post was of interest to me, Darrius.  I, too, live in the SE USA, have for years and, while I was not born in this region, my mother was and her family still resides here.  I started coming here in the 60s as a child for vacations and I have seen huge changes over the years.  While there still exist biases and prejudices here, I say these things exist everywhere.  This place is no better or worse than other places.  It is just different.

I have seen strong prejudices in action in large cities in the NE, in mountain areas, in the SW, even in the midwest where I am native.  What I take exception to is your representation that this region is worse than others.  Several tornadoes hit my state last weekend and it is heartening but not amazing to see so many reach out to help those in need, no matter their age, sex, race, religion.

I will not deny for a second that when those tornadoes passed through here last week, the community pulled together and demonstrated a magnificent quality of human nature. I saw it same as you. Nor will I deny that giant strides have been made in decreasing the level of bigotry and hatred that goes on around here in the last two decades.

But pulling out 100 porcupine quills does not mean you can declare yourself free of the pain when there are still 100's more embedded in your skin. It might be because you live in one of those "upper class" burgs where every house is decorated just so, with lawns manicured to perfection .. and every face you meet is the same as yours .. pampered, free of strife and pain and fear .. or it might just be that you choose not to see your neighbors for who they really are .. I cannot say.

But I can say that where I live, the people I meet, befriend, avoid or lend a helping hand .. there are many who still carry a venomous hatred inside themselves that knows no reason .. only history and bloodshed that happened years before they came into this world. And I do not know why.

Every person I meet is granted one immediate right from me .. the right to be a free human in all that means. I hope and pray they grant me the same in return. I am sorry to say, I do not get that all the time.

I too have seen hatred and discrimination in every place I've gone. I have seen it in every country I've visited too. I can turn on the TV and see it displayed in the events of today from around the world. But I still do not like it nor understand it either. This place I live is also not the only place where hatred is "internalized" in the habits of many people. I worked for over a decade for a company based in Israel, and I can tell you that they had the same sort of problems as I see here. And they are still losing lives on BOTH sides of the hatred line because of it. So no Venus, it isn't peculiar to here .. but it is very prevalent here nonetheless.

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I don't feel that Darrius spoke "for me" at all, Storm.  He has his own perspective, and answered your post as himself, not on behalf of me, as is, after all, normally the case here.

 


Storm Clarence wrote:

 
ETA The more you respond in the context you do reflects the underlying motivations of the feminist as described in my OP: The stifling of the heterosexual male.

 

 

And in this comment lies the answer to your question, why am I bringing up the situation of the LGBT community.  You have an agenda, Storm, and it's not a very well concealed one.   Yes, this is a thread about the "heterosexual man," in a manner of speaking, but you are defining your position as a straight guy with reference to, and in contradistinction from, gays and "feminists."  Look at your OP again.  I've bolded the bits that define your subjective position as a straight male against what you clearly perceive to be a threat::

 


Storm Clarence wrote:

Is the political correctness in today's world suppressing the heterosexual relationship?
 
Is political correctness and feminism attempting to stifle heterosexual men?
 
Is the display of a heterosexual relationship on the cusp of extinction? Does the heterosexual man need to 'hide' his sexuality - his identity when he is in the presence of non-heteros?
 

What is the view of the heterosexual man who posts in a LBGTI forum?  Do I, as a heterosexual man, have anything to offer?  My sexuality is tied to the relationships I form.  Aren't gay issues *relationship* issues, too?  If not, what is specific to the gay man that is not specific to me - unless it's all only about the 'sexual activity,' and not the relationship itself?     

Must I defend my sexuality?  Must a gay man defend his sexuality?  Why is one singled out over the other for a 'specific' forum?
  Who really cares if the relationship is MM, MF, or FF.  Shouldn't it be about issues we face in relationships: treating one another with kindness, humor, reasoning, compassion, compromise; and discussing the issues that lead to unhealthy types of relationships, or how to build better relationships?

 

Your defensiveness -- indeed, your panic -- here is palpable.  Why do you feel so threatened?

In the OP, you ask "what is specific to the gay man that is not specific to me" -- and I answered that in my first post to you, and subsequently.  The answer to the question is . . . a great deal.  You seem not to want to acknowledge this.

Your posts represent another articulation of the eternal whine of the privileged everywhere:  "We've gone too far!!  We're all equal now!  They don't NEED anymore!"  Except we aren't all equal, are we?  I've already pointed out the particular obstacles and social disabilities faced by the LGBT community;  let's look at the flip side of the coin.  Heterosexual males still dominate in most professions, and still earn more money on average for the same work than women.  They still dominate the political sphere, and they dominate the corporate boardrooms.  In times of recession or economic hardship, it's not the hetero males who are laid off or fired first:  it's the vulnerable, the women, the visible minorities, and other classes of people who have not yet achieved the kind of seniority that most straight males have achieved.  And hetero males are not subject to anything like the stigma, hate, and prejudice that gays, people of colour, and women still experience daily.

Your implicit suggestion that a dedicated LGBT forum constitutes an assault upon your manhood reminds me very much, and is of a piece with, those who argue that permitting gay marriages somehow "devalues" straight marriages.  It's a mild form of homophobia, I guess . . . but it's still homophobia.

Explain to me, please, how having a separate LGBT forum would in any way diminish you.

And while you're at it, please tell me how I, or any other feminist (most of whom are themselves heterosexual, btw) are "stifling" the heterosexual male.  I'd like some specifics, please.

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Venus Petrov wrote:

 

Darrius Gothly wrote:

Hmm .. now that's an interesting concept.

See, I live in the southeastern USA. Around these parts there is a long standing history of persecution and discrimination for a whole passle of reasons. When I moved here from the mountain regions of the western USA, it took me a bit to adjust to the blatant bad attitudes and prejudices that sit right on the surface here. TBH .. it was amazing to me to be so hated because of my race. Now that I've been here nearly 20 years, I'm a lot more familiar with a lot of the ways folks try to put you down or demean you for basically nonsensical reasons.

This part of your post was of interest to me, Darrius.  I, too, live in the SE USA, have for years and, while I was not born in this region, my mother was and her family still resides here.  I started coming here in the 60s as a child for vacations and I have seen huge changes over the years. 
While there still exist biases and prejudices here, I say these things exist everywhere.  This place is no better or worse than other places.  It is just different.

I have seen strong prejudices in action in large cities in the NE, in mountain areas, in the SW, even in the midwest where I am native.  What I take exception to is your representation that this region is worse than others.  Several tornadoes hit my state last weekend and it is heartening but not amazing to see so many reach out to help those in need, no matter their age, sex, race, religion.

I will not deny for a second that when those tornadoes passed through here last week, the community pulled together and demonstrated a magnificent quality of human nature. I saw it same as you. Nor will I deny that giant strides have been made in decreasing the level of bigotry and hatred that goes on around here in the last two decades.

But pulling out 100 porcupine quills does not mean you can declare yourself free of the pain when there are still 100's more embedded in your skin. It might be because you live in one of those "upper class" burgs where every house is decorated just so, with lawns manicured to perfection .. and every face you meet is the same as yours .. pampered, free of strife and pain and fear .. or it might just be that you choose not to see your neighbors for who they really are .. I cannot say.

But I can say that where I live, the people I meet, befriend, avoid or lend a helping hand .. there are many who still carry a venomous hatred inside themselves that knows no reason .. only history and bloodshed that happened years before they came into this world. And I do not know why.

Every person I meet is granted one immediate right from me .. the right to be a free human in all that means. I hope and pray they grant me the same in return. I am sorry to say, I do not get that all the time.

I too have seen hatred and discrimination in every place I've gone. I have seen it in every country I've visited too. I can turn on the TV and see it displayed in the events of today from around the world. But I still do not like it nor understand it either. This place I live is also not the only place where hatred is "internalized" in the habits of many people. I worked for over a decade for a company based in Israel, and I can tell you that they had the same sort of problems as I see here. And they are still losing lives on BOTH sides of the hatred line because of it.
So no Venus, it isn't peculiar to here .. but it is very prevalent here nonetheless.

 

"Prevalent here" is your opinion and I expressed mine.  To me, it is no more prevalent than in other places.  It may manifest itself differently but it is the same beast that expresses itself in small ways and large (e.g  wars).  

Do not try to bait me about your assumptions where I live.

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Venus Petrov wrote:

"Prevalent here" is your opinion and I expressed mine.  To me, it is no more prevalent than in other places.  It may manifest itself differently but it is the same beast that expresses itself in small ways and large (e.g  wars).  

Do not try to bait me about your assumptions where I live.

 

Bait you? Nope, wasn't my goal. I was pointing out possible reasons as to why you do not see the same things I see.

In case you hadn't noticed yet Venus, I'm pretty blunt. If i've got something to say to you .. i'll flat out say it. You can take that to the bank.

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

I don't feel that Darrius spoke "for me" at all, Storm.  He has his own perspective, and answered your post as himself, not on behalf of me, as is, after all, normally the case here.

 

Storm Clarence wrote:

 
ETA The more you respond in the context you do reflects the underlying motivations of the feminist as described in my OP: The stifling of the heterosexual male.

 

 

And in this comment lies the answer to your question, why am I bringing up the situation of the LGBT community.  You have an agenda, Storm, and it's not a very well concealed one.   Yes, this
is
a thread about the "heterosexual man," in a manner of speaking, but you are defining your position as a straight guy with reference to, and in contradistinction from, gays and "feminists."  Look at your OP again.  I've bolded the bits that define your subjective position as a straight male against what you clearly perceive to be a threat::

 

Storm Clarence wrote:

Is the political correctness in today's world suppressing the heterosexual relationship?
 
Is political correctness and feminism attempting to stifle heterosexual men?
 
Is the display of a heterosexual relationship on the cusp of extinction? Does the heterosexual man need to 'hide' his sexuality - his identity when he is in the presence of non-heteros?
 

What is the view of the heterosexual man who posts in a LBGTI forum?  Do I, as a heterosexual man, have anything to offer?  My sexuality is tied to the relationships I form.  Aren't gay issues *relationship* issues, too?  If not, what is specific to the gay man that is not specific to me - unless it's all only about the 'sexual activity,' and not the relationship itself?     

Must I defend my sexuality?  Must a gay man defend his sexuality?  Why is one singled out over the other for a 'specific' forum?
  Who really cares if the relationship is MM, MF, or FF.  Shouldn't it be about issues we face in relationships: treating one another with kindness, humor, reasoning, compassion, compromise; and discussing the issues that lead to unhealthy types of relationships, or how to build better relationships?

 

Your defensiveness -- indeed, your panic -- here is palpable.  Why do you feel so threatened?

In the OP, you ask "what is specific to the gay man that is not specific to me" -- and I answered that in my first post to you, and subsequently.  The answer to the question is . . . a great deal.  You seem not to want to acknowledge this.

Your posts represent another articulation of the eternal whine of the privileged everywhere:  "We've gone too far!!  We're all equal now!  They don't NEED anymore!"  Except we aren't all equal, are we?  I've already pointed out the particular obstacles and social disabilities faced by the LGBT community;  let's look at the flip side of the coin.  Heterosexual males
still
dominate in most professions, and still earn more money on average for the same work than women.  They still dominate the political sphere, and they dominate the corporate boardrooms.  In times of recession or economic hardship, it's not the hetero males who are laid off or fired first:  it's the vulnerable, the women, the visible minorities, and other classes of people who have not yet achieved the kind of seniority that most straight males have achieved.  And hetero males are not subject to anything like the stigma, hate, and prejudice that gays, people of colour, and women
still
experience daily.

Your implicit suggestion that a dedicated LGBT forum constitutes an assault upon your manhood reminds me very much, and is of a piece with, those who argue that permitting gay marriages somehow "devalues" straight marriages.  It's a mild form of homophobia, I guess . . . but it's still homophobia.

Explain to me, please, how having a separate LGBT forum would in any way diminish you.

And while you're at it, please tell me how I, or any other feminist (most of whom are themselves heterosexual, btw) are "stifling" the heterosexual male.  I'd like some specifics, please.

 

 

I must be getting insensitive in my old age but I'd be a fibber if I said I perceived the panic you say is palpable. Yep, he's taking a definite stance - but quite possibly for the pleasure of instigating and interesting debate, rather than because he's sitting quaking in his room, scared in case the femminists and gays get him and poke fun at him for his male straightness.

I've lost count of the times I've seen you, Scylla, accused of working to an agenda. Whatever the number is, there's no doubt that you, more than anybody else, have had to justify wanting to take a definite position over some issue. I have to say I'm finding it vaguely perplexing that you are now accusing someone else of "having an agenda". What if he has? Why would it be a big deal? We can hardly fight for our right to follow our own personal aims if we try to beat down those who have agendas not quite in line with our own.

Regarding Storm's position - although it may all be focused on himself and his straightness - I'm also seeing traces of something very valid in his words which rather fit in to what was said at that recent meeting during which one of the Lindens announced the upcoming creation of a "hidden" LGBT forum and many of that community present were very vocal about not requiring a separate, hidden forum, the point being that a little too much positive discrimination can end up feeling awfully like being segregated and ostracised anyway.

Anyhoo...who do I have to petition for a private forum for old-age pensioner avies? One which you have to provide proof of holding a free bus pass to get into?

 

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Whatever else, your "vivid" and extended description of the sort of place where Venus might live gives to me the impression of envy and jealousy on your part and of someone posting with a serious chip on their shoulder. You will no doubt tell me that is not so, but, in the spirit of bluntness, that is the impression (perhaps mistakenly) I was left with.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Venus Petrov wrote:

"Prevalent here" is your opinion and I expressed mine.  To me, it is no more prevalent than in other places.  It may manifest itself differently but it is the same beast that expresses itself in small ways and large (e.g  wars).  

Do not try to bait me about your assumptions where I live.

 

Bait you? Nope, wasn't my goal. I was pointing out possible reasons as to why you do not see the same things I see.

In case you hadn't noticed yet Venus, I'm pretty blunt. If i've got something to say to you .. i'll flat out say it. You can take that to the bank.

You presume things about my RL situation and paint a picture to get me to validate or not.  You need not create reasons why I have a different opinion.  It is what it is and you can take *that* to the bank.

 

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

 But there is a whole class of experience that is
unique
to the LGBTI community that you -- and I -- can't possibly understand fully.  Because while heterosexual youth may get beaten up, they aren't beaten up for BEING heterosexual.  Heterosexual children and adults don't have to hide their sexuality from their parents, friends, or coworkers, as is the daily reality for a great many gays.  And heterosexual couples don't face
anything
like the same legal and social restrictions imposed in most places upon homosexual couples. Do you not understand that these are challenges and obstacles that are NOT shared by those whose sexuality has been privileged by centuries of intolerance?


It is the
uniqueness
of these experiences that is the point.  Whether or not it is
desireable
to have a separate LGBTI forum, such a forum is entirely
justifiable
, for the simple reason that there are things about living as a lesbian, gay, bi, or transgendered person that are really facts of life ONLY for those within that community.  An LGBTI forum would be a place where these unique issues and problems might be discussed by those who experience them as a daily reality.

Carole comments:

Gosh, Scylla, really can't say I agree with you here.

First of all, as has been made abundantly clear by LL, the forums are for purely SL issues. The intolerance you speak of is, as far as I know, strictly real-life and as such has no place in here, along with other RL political and social issues (if I've understood the rules correctly).

In second place, since we're talking about SL LGBTI-ism...well, uhm...isn't that something that just about 90% of all SLers will have been part of during their life-span in here - by which I mean, if you count up all the guys who've had female avies, women and men who've dabbled in SL bi and homosexuality, etc.,  wouldn't that amount to a huge number of people who aren't "real" LGBTI-ists? Or would you have to demonstrate you'd "tried" at least once in real-life to qualify to get into a specially designated area?

I think with the transient nature of gender, race and sexual expression in here, applying real-world labels is a bit nonsensical, to be frank, and the issue of intolerance is pretty minimal especially when you consider that it's quite possible that this group you speak of is actually the vast majority of SL residents.


 

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

I don't feel that Darrius spoke "for me" at all, Storm.  He has his own perspective, and answered your post as himself, not on behalf of me, as is, after all, normally the case here.

 

Storm Clarence wrote:

 
ETA The more you respond in the context you do reflects the underlying motivations of the feminist as described in my OP: The stifling of the heterosexual male.

 

 

And in this comment lies the answer to your question, why am I bringing up the situation of the LGBT community.  You have an agenda, Storm, and it's not a very well concealed one.   Yes, this
is
a thread about the "heterosexual man," in a manner of speaking, but you are defining your position as a straight guy with reference to, and in contradistinction from, gays and "feminists."  Look at your OP again.  I've bolded the bits that define your subjective position as a straight male against what you clearly perceive to be a threat::

 

Storm Clarence wrote:

Is the political correctness in today's world suppressing the heterosexual relationship?
 
Is political correctness and feminism attempting to stifle heterosexual men?
 
Is the display of a heterosexual relationship on the cusp of extinction? Does the heterosexual man need to 'hide' his sexuality - his identity when he is in the presence of non-heteros?
 

What is the view of the heterosexual man who posts in a LBGTI forum?  Do I, as a heterosexual man, have anything to offer?  My sexuality is tied to the relationships I form.  Aren't gay issues *relationship* issues, too?  If not, what is specific to the gay man that is not specific to me - unless it's all only about the 'sexual activity,' and not the relationship itself?     

Must I defend my sexuality?  Must a gay man defend his sexuality?  Why is one singled out over the other for a 'specific' forum?
  Who really cares if the relationship is MM, MF, or FF.  Shouldn't it be about issues we face in relationships: treating one another with kindness, humor, reasoning, compassion, compromise; and discussing the issues that lead to unhealthy types of relationships, or how to build better relationships?

 

Your defensiveness -- indeed, your panic -- here is palpable.  Why do you feel so threatened?

In the OP, you ask "what is specific to the gay man that is not specific to me" -- and I answered that in my first post to you, and subsequently.  The answer to the question is . . . a great deal.  You seem not to want to acknowledge this.

Your posts represent another articulation of the eternal whine of the privileged everywhere:  "We've gone too far!!  We're all equal now!  They don't NEED anymore!"  Except we aren't all equal, are we?  I've already pointed out the particular obstacles and social disabilities faced by the LGBT community;  let's look at the flip side of the coin.  Heterosexual males
still
dominate in most professions, and still earn more money on average for the same work than women.  They still dominate the political sphere, and they dominate the corporate boardrooms.  In times of recession or economic hardship, it's not the hetero males who are laid off or fired first:  it's the vulnerable, the women, the visible minorities, and other classes of people who have not yet achieved the kind of seniority that most straight males have achieved.  And hetero males are not subject to anything like the stigma, hate, and prejudice that gays, people of colour, and women
still
experience daily.

Your implicit suggestion that a dedicated LGBT forum constitutes an assault upon your manhood reminds me very much, and is of a piece with, those who argue that permitting gay marriages somehow "devalues" straight marriages.  It's a mild form of homophobia, I guess . . . but it's still homophobia.

Explain to me, please, how having a separate LGBT forum would in any way diminish you.

And while you're at it, please tell me how I, or any other feminist (most of whom are themselves heterosexual, btw) are "stifling" the heterosexual male.  I'd like some specifics, please.

 

 

I must be getting insensitive in my old age but I'd be a fibber if I said I perceived the panic you say is palpable. Yep, he's taking a definite stance - but quite possibly for the pleasure of instigating and interesting debate, rather than because he's sitting quaking in his room, scared in case the femminists and gays get him and poke fun at him for his male straightness.

I've lost count of the times I've seen you, Scylla, accused of working to an agenda. Whatever the number is, there's no doubt that you, more than anybody else, have had to justify wanting to take a definite position over some issue. I have to say I'm finding it vaguely perplexing that you are now accusing someone else of "having an agenda". What if he has? Why would it be a big deal? We can hardly fight for our right to follow our own personal aims if we try to beat down those who have agendas not quite in line with our own.

Regarding Storm's position - although it may all be focused on himself and his straightness - I'm also seeing traces of something very valid in his words which rather fit in to what was said at that recent meeting during which one of the Lindens announced the upcoming creation of a "hidden" LGBT forum and many of that community present were very vocal about not requiring a separate, hidden forum, the point being that a little too much positive discrimination can end up feeling awfully like being segregated and ostracised anyway.

Anyhoo...who do I have to petition for a private forum for old-age pensioner avies? One which you have to provide proof of holding a free bus pass to get into?

 

 

Panic . . . fear . . . annoyance . . . post-prandial indigestion . . . whatever.  Storm has clearly indicated that he sees the creation of an LGBT forum as some kind of threat to heterosexuals.

I've never disclaimed having an agenda.  I got into the forums over two years ago because I had a clear agenda, and I'd say for the most part I wear it on my sleeve.  What I think you'll find if you look (although I can't imagine that you'd bother) is that my response to this accusation has always been "Of course I have an agenda.  So do you.  We all have agendas."  The dispassionate pursuit of objective truth is something that is played out in scientific journals (if there), and not in a forum like this.

The issue is the exact nature of Storm's agenda.  I contend that it is a reactionary one, that would wish to deny a disadvantaged community a tool that might (or might not -- this is under debate) have some utility, because he can't have one too.

As for the broad opposition to a separate LGBT forum from within that community, I'll agree:  it's certainly there.  But that opposition is clearly not founded on the same assumptions as Storm's.  I doubt that too many oppose it because they are afraid that it is going to stifle heterosexual males.  And it's Storm's assumptions that I'd like him to lay bare.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Carole comments:

Gosh, Scylla, really can't say I agree with you here.

First of all, as has been made abundantly clear by LL, the forums are for purely SL issues. The intolerance you speak of is, as far as I know, strictly real-life and as such has no place in here, along with other RL political and social issues (if I've understood the rules correctly).

In second place, since we're talking about SL LGBTI-ism...well, uhm...isn't that something that just about 90% of all SLers will have been part of during their life-span in here - by which I mean, if you count up all the guys who've had female avies, women and men who've dabbled in SL bi and homosexuality, etc.,  wouldn't that amount to a huge number of people who aren't "real" LGBTI-ists? Or would you have to demonstrate you'd "tried" at least once in real-life to qualify to get into a specially designated area?

I think with the transient nature of gender, race and sexual expression in here, applying real-world labels is a bit nonsensical, to be frank, and the issue of intolerance is pretty minimal especially when you consider that it's quite possible that this group you speak of is actually the vast majority of SL residents.


 

 

I would agree that those portions of SL that I've encountered are, for the most part, remarkably liberal in comparison with RL.  That's a function of ths platform.  But I've certainly also seen homophobia at work here, in many forms.  Ever heard the phrase "fur **bleep**"?  It's a pretty common expression in SL -- in fact, you'll see it in use amongst the posters on Alphaville Herald right now, if you'd care to look.

The manifestations of homophobia in SL are, of course, not as severe as they are in RL.  But they are there, that notwithstanding.

As for your contention that gender-bending in SL makes one a member of the LGBT community, I'm afraid that I strongly disagree.  So, I suspect would the majority of those who gender bend, as well as those whom I know belong to the LGBT community in SL.  Wearing a dress -- or a female avatar -- does not make one "transgendered" or even truly transvestite, and it certainly doesn't make one gay.  Gender-bending is, for the most part, playing and experimenting with identity, and it can derive from a great many impulses.  TG, on the other hand, speaks to a profound feeling of belonging to a gender with which one's sexual biology does not match:  it's a deep-seated conviction about one's sexual identity, not a matter of taking a female avi for a quick stroll through an SL club.

Interestingly, many of those whom I know in SL who self-identify as transgendered do not simply wear an avatar that represents their "natural" (i.e., non-biological) sex:  they choose instead a shape and skin that represents what a transgendered person, often a post-operative one, looks like in RL.  The resulting avatars are often rather androgenous looking (for instance, the characteristic proportions of the male hips, waist, and shoulders are retained or only slighly modified).

To term everyone who experiments with gender identiy in Second Life "LGBT" is to profoundly misunderstand what constitutes being gay, lesbian, bi, or transgendered.

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Scylla Rhiadra wrote: 

Panic . . . fear . . . annoyance . . . post-prandial indigestion . . . whatever.  Storm has clearly indicated that he sees the creation of an LGBT forum as some kind of threat to heterosexuals.

I've
never
disclaimed having an agenda.  I got into the forums over two years ago because I had a clear agenda, and I'd say for the most part I wear it on my sleeve.  What I think you'll find if you look (although I can't imagine that you'd bother) is that my response to this accusation has always been "Of course I have an agenda.  So do you.  We all have agendas."  The dispassionate pursuit of objective truth is something that is played out in scientific journals (if there), and not in a forum like this.

The issue is the exact nature of Storm's agenda.  I contend that it is a reactionary one, that would wish to deny a disadvantaged community a tool that might (or might not -- this is under debate) have some utility, because he can't have one too.

As for the broad opposition to a separate LGBT forum from within that community, I'll agree:  it's certainly there.  But that opposition is clearly not founded on the same assumptions as Storm's.  I doubt that too many oppose it because they are afraid that it is going to stifle heterosexual males.  And it's Storm's assumptions that I'd like him to lay bare.

 

I asked both how I can participate and how will my words be viewed, as a heterosexual male, in a LGBT forum.  Do I, as a heterosexual male, have any input in a forum of this nature?  If no, then why not?  Isn't it about relationships?

Me threatened - no, it is you, the feminist with an agenda, a heterosexual woman, one who appointed herself as speaker for LGBT community, who seems threatened by my OP. 

I would be threatened more by the racist attitude of Darrius, as described in his words, than that of mine that speak to my heterosexual being.  More than your assertion that I am threatened by the gay male - is the gay male threatened by me?  I don't think so, but I can not speak for the gay male.  Although it is the first time in my life - RL or SL, that I have been told I was homophobic - there are too many individuals that would disagree with you; including myself.

I do not know the orientation of many responders, however, I did not read in Canoro words anything that indicated either my being threatened or him feeling threatened - he answered the best way he knew how.   I appreciate his words.

You are not a member of the LGBT community but you are compelled to speak for them; to label anyone with dissenting opinions from 'your' agenda on what the LGBT community should look like, as homophobic.  /me laughs.  Like I said, be more circumspect in your activist activities.  

 

ETA Apologies Canoro for misspelling your name.

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