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1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I really haven't been here long at all. I have friends who own or have owned clubs - I remember one who used to put grandiose, empty shopping malls in front of them. They usually lasted a few months at most - of course, she was restless and was known to start rebuilding the club in the middle of an event, so...

I have a few little "businesses" that I built for my amusement and put tip jars in them - I consider the occasional tip a bonus. I found that I make more leaving them open and putting out tip jars than when I tried to charge people for their use.

Ok.  I misunderstood.  I thought you meant that YOU had been here for 14 years. 

In general, what I've learned in business, is that if all the businesses are doing something there's a pretty good chance it's working.  I don't think anyone could come along and rewire SL unless they had a really disruptive program to insert.  But doing something that already exists a little bit better with some innovation creates big businesses on this side of a computer.  But SL isn't that different from the rest of life in my view.  It's still people behind those avatars,  just like it's people behind our bodies. 

Anyway, appreciate the thoughts. 

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10 minutes ago, Chinami1000 said:

You've been here a LONG time.  Have you owned a club or shopping center? 

You also mentioned how players will go to the highest payout.  No doubt, but I've been looking for payout rates and haven't been able to find them.  So how would the players know?  If they don't know, wouldn't they likely choose the place with the best atmosphere and player benefits, etc? 

I know that as I've hopped around for a while the one I like best is the one with a set of games that offer a proportional payout and frequent player rewards.  It 'feels' like I'm able to play for longer before the venue gets the cash.  But I don't really know the numbers.

        Remind me again, are you still pretending to be "new" to SL, or are you basing all of your experience and spite on the three days that your avatar has been in SL? I feel as though this is crucial to this developing.. topic. ;) 

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1 minute ago, norajulian said:

        Remind me again, are you still pretending to be "new" to SL, or are you basing all of your experience and spite on the three days that your avatar has been in SL? I feel as though this is crucial to this developing.. topic. ;) 

I'm not new to life.  ffs.  Google and moving around the world for a couple days, firing questions at people will get you pretty far.  i don't know why people think SL is so complicated.  or life for that matter.

 

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28 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

After fourteen years, things in Second Life have evolved into what they have for a reason. It's going to be difficult to change things if you don't understand the reason why things are they way they are.

In a nutshell.

I'd add: And listen to those who do. 

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12 minutes ago, Chinami1000 said:

  Google and moving around the world for a couple days, firing questions at people will get you pretty far. 

i don't know why people think SL is so complicated. 

or life for that matter.

 

1. Not really..

2. Because it is.

3. Possibly if you are in elementary school, life does not seem complicated.  After that, it's pretty much nothing but nonstop complications. 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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4 minutes ago, Chinami1000 said:

I'm not new to life.  ffs.  Google and moving around the world for a couple days, firing questions at people will get you pretty far.  i don't know why people think SL is so complicated.  or life for that matter.

     Okay, I just wanted to be sure. ;)  Carry on. I figure about a dozen more self-entitled yammering posts and you might get tuckered out. Don't let us slow you down from making  your own mistakes. Folks in SL who have been around and made mistakes and learned lessons tend to try to pass along information to help you from losing too much, but you DO run across a hard-headed fellow every now and again. I'd say you know what I'm talking about, but.. you know. ;)  Best wishes, though! 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

In a nutshell.

I'd add: And listen to those who do. 

      I think throughout the posts that China has made, it can be determined that they have no interest in listening, and simply enjoy portraying the computer warrior that we are all capable of becoming. It's one of those moments where your momma whacks the back of your hand with a ruler, but you keep on having 'the dumb' because you are a teenager and do what you think is best, regardless of the outcome.  

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i never get tuckered out.  but i have found 2 people with enough knowledge to be useful and a dozen who are just cancer.  be gone tumor.  this post has played itself out i think. 

 

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2 hours ago, Chinami1000 said:

no you didn't.  i know that with 0 doubt.  other people did those things.  you're taking credit.  people with expertise who have done things are positive and they provide details.  see above. 

and don't blame your kids for things either. 

 

 It's not often I ruffle feathers this terribly.

It's okay dear, sometimes life angers me too. If lashing out and insulting folks in the manner you've chosen is what helps you heal...have at it. I'm a big girl, with thick skin, I can handle it. I am truly sorry that life has chosen to be this cruel to you though. Whatever that mountain may be..I hope you find a way to climb it.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Chinami1000 said:

If I had a dollar for every time someone told me something was impossible I'd have a lot of money. 

Yes, but I think the more important question is how many dollars you'd have for every time people said something is impossible but you went ahead and proved them wrong by doing it anyway.  

I mean, if I were to assert that it's  easy to start a fire by rubbing together two wet fish, and someone were to arrange for me to be paid a dollar for every time I was told that, on the contrary,  this method of starting fires is not going to be very successful, I'd end up with a lot of dollars, but I'm not sure what this would prove.

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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3 hours ago, Chinami1000 said:

So tell me then, why do the existing music clubs put shopping all around them?

Because 11 years ago, clueless idividuals who thought SL Business would simply be RL business online, decided to follow that whole "Club and Mall, and condos and blah blah" model, and because once, long ago, you could not just TP to places, you had to TP to a 'telehub', then WALK cross country to the destination, possibly several sims.

That's why even today, clueless idiots still claim that being near a "LL Protected Road"  jusifies hiking the price of digital dirt by 50-100%

It's why every damn sim on the grid seems to have an empty shopping mall, and an empty night club.

Harsh reality is (and yes I've worked as senior sim staff on places that did this) that people who TP to a club to listen to their fav sl dj, MC Butthurt, stay for his 2 hour set, then tp out, they don't wander off to the mall to shop, then find a coffee bar or a resturant, then check into a motel skybox for the night.

Partnering with existing operators...

You, like so many failed SL Tycoons before you actually THINK that you have 'original ideas' that havn't been tried a thousand times over, and failed a thousand times over, years before you showed up.

Here's a History Lesson.

Once upon a time, SL was different, during the settlement era called the "First Wave", Back then the population was a little larger than it is now, the land area a lot smaller, making it all feel busy etc.

Then out there in FirstLife, news broke that "you can get rich fast for no work" in SL

The Second Wavers poured in, the population skyrocketed, and everysingle damn 2nd Waver came clutching a carpetbag filled with Linden Dollars, determined to make it big in SL, despite having a) no marketable skills, b) no viable business plan and c) no fugging clue.

The population exploded by oh 1500-2000%, most of the noobs were so clueless and by todays standards so affluent, that you could make easy money almost anywhere, everyone opened malls selling fugging awful skins, fugging awful clothes, ugly primmy crap of all kinds abounded (you want to know how bad, go visit World-O-Crap Discount Freebie Warehouse, where you can get a 'worst of 2006' mega pack for a linden).

Land area didnt keep up with population size at first, and land prices exploded, people on the Madlands, started fighting the Parcel Wars, to force sale of land that wasn't for sale, griefers were everywhere.

The bubble burst late 2008-early 2009, and all those MILLIONS of people, some 20 million accounts? They all left, almost as fast as they arrived, screaming "the end is nigh all is lost, flee!" as they went.

All your 'cool business innovations' were tried then, all those clieless "make it for RL reasons because we dont understand SL" Business Fails.

We've seen them all... Mixed use Retail/Recreation/Residential Sims, Casinos with showgirls, Megasuper Shopping Malls, all of it.

Even today, you still see clueless old fossils who think these 'cool ideas will save their business'

Empty mall areas outside mostly empty clubs, near some almost empty skybox rentals, clustered around a social area.

Before you whine about how all the ex business people and current business people here, are lying when they say you don't have a single original idea, and all the ideas you will come up with in your initial months in SL are auto-fail, maybe... you should just sit back and ponder.

Just to flagrantly demonstrate how little you know, lets look at your ORIGINAL idea, Property Tycoon.

A full island region costs $600 setup and $295 a month, your competitors, with grandfathered regions pay $195 a month, so to match their rental prices, you basically have a $10 a month markup.

That means that assuming you manage to rent it out immediately, you'll only have to wait 5 YEARS for it to break even and start making an actual profit, of... $10 a month, well short of the $400 a day you claim to be aiming at.

To make enough money after those 5 YEARS, to actually make it worth while giving up the day job as a minimum wage french fry salt shaker operative at Col. Mc Kings Arkansas Grilled Turkey-Ham Nugget Burgers, you'd only have to own 200 full island regions in 100% rental occupancy for 5 YEARS

Those are going to cost you $120,000 down and almost $60,000 a month in Tier. Thats to be slightly better off than some shlub who works in a burger pit.

So, still planning to get FirstLife Rich here in SecondLife, without actually having ANY marketable SL skills, based on clueless RL Only business plans?

Good luck with that...

 

Edited by Klytyna
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Must be my week to play the skeptic.

Firstly, it's true that everything everybody has said seem valid: the specific proposed ideas for skill gaming regions seem unlikely to succeed. That's partially because they seem similar to past failures, and partially because a cruel fact of business is that anything new is more likely to fail than to succeed.*

And yet the current skill gaming business is almost surely 100% ripe for disruption, if only we found the magic innovation that kicks to the curb all the losers who are currently the industry leaders.

Same with all SL. Those ugly freebies from 2006 were the very best folks knew to make back then, and same with scripting, skybox rentals, even escorting. We may think we're modern AF all up in here, but this will look barbaric to the next generation.

Indeed, it's kind of inevitable that somebody will come along and find a way to attract more players (or more to the point, more profit) in the skill gaming business (assuming that it continues to be permitted in Second Life and that SL itself retains enough users interested in such games).

At a minimum, the overall SL experience and user base are constantly changing, so practices optimized for the current business environment should need to evolve.

In any case, if one sought a high payoff innovation, it would be wise to leverage what's known from past failures and successes in SL and elsewhere to both filter and generate new ideas worth trying. The point is, even though most of the best ideas will fail, some might be big successes.

_______________
*as I've been saying about Sansar, no matter how eager we may be for its success.

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15 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

How do I know it doesn't work? Because it's been tried, and failed

I feel the need to come in here. You don't know that what the OP is saying won't work, Tari. What you say you know is that some people tried some things that are not totally dissimilar, and failed, but you don't know why they failed. You don't know, for instance, whether or not it was because they weren't people with good business skills and experience. From it, you cannot realistically deduce that anyone else who comes along will also fail. You can't do that in RL and you can't do it in SL. You can't even realistically say that what the OP described will fail, because you haven't seen it being tried by a competent business person.

Also, there is no need to get heavy with someone, using words like 'butthurt, just because they don't accept your word as being either gospel or experienced in the matter. It doesn't do anyone any good, including you.

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A little offtopic, but @Klytyna is there a popular name for people who came after 2009? (Just curious)

Now carry on with that casino and landlord discussion everyone else!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Must be my week to play the skeptic.

If you mean something along the lines of swimming against the tide in this thread, then I'm swimming in the same direction.

I've read the posts, and I've seen the 'Likes', and I disagree with almost everyone. I think that most people in this thread are NOT posting from experience. Instead, they are posting what they believe would be the result, but posting it as though it were a near certainty.

I think it's sheer stupidity that some people have suggested things like the OP will be blocked by people here, or be getting a bad reputation here. The very idea is utterly stupid. I've read the OP's posts too, and I find the thinking in them to be sensible. Nobody in this thread has had the experience to be able to guide the OP as to the likely outcome of what she described, and nobody in this thread has even known anyone who tried it and failed, let alone anyone with good business accumen who tried it and failed.

It looks to me like a bit of a bandwagon; i.e if so-and-so and so-and-so say it will fail, then I'll also post that it will fail, because I know those people from the forum and they usually write good posts. That's what I'll do even though I myself have no experience that would lead me to think it will fail. A bandwagon.

I'm sorry, but that's the way I see this thread. It's perfectly fine to advise someone that something is likely to fail, preferably with a logical reason, but it's not fine to come down on the person just because they don't take your word as gospel.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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27 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I feel the need to come in here. You don't know that what the OP is saying won't work, Tari. What you say you know is that some people tried some things that are not totally dissimilar, and failed, but you don't know why they failed. You don't know, for instance, whether or not it was because they weren't people with good business skills and experience. From it, you cannot realistically deduce that anyone else who comes along will also fail. You can't do that in RL and you can't do it in SL. You can't even realistically say that what the OP described will fail, because you haven't seen it being tried by a competent business person.

Also, there is no need to get heavy with someone, using words like 'butthurt, just because they don't accept your word as being either gospel or experienced in the matter. It doesn't do anyone any good, including you.

Really Phil?

Tari's first post to the OP was anything but 'heavy', and was inclusive of the OP's other threads here trying to find a way to make money. The OP's reply to Tari was inappropriate in its ignorance and callous dismissal of not only her but others here who have made some valid points about the OP's lack of a comprehensible understanding of business in general and starting a business here in SL referring to them as 'cancerous' to which Tari then used the term 'butthurt'. Further on someone suggested the OP was a 'tool' and even that was kinder than what I would have said of them.

Try not to succumb to the "need" to respond based on emotionality.

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Not that I have any interest in doing this, but I've sometimes wondered what LL's attitude would be to someone's opening a casino-like attraction that contained shared-media connections to a gambling site, from which the owner of the attraction would earn a commission. 

This would probably exclude most US residents, but as far as I can see, a Brit would be able to open something that certainly other Brits and Irish residents could use, and probably other EU residents too, without having to worry about having to apply for a licence from the UK's Gambling Commission (since you'd be covered by the licence of the main site to which you were directing traffic) and I don't think  LL would need to worry about US law, since all the transactions would take place outside SL, direct between the gaming site and the players' credit cards.

That way people could play roulette, slots, blackjack, poker or whatever using software far superior to anything we can do with LSL, for real money.   

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22 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Really Phil?

Tari's first post to the OP was anything but 'heavy', and was inclusive of the OP's other threads here trying to find a way to make money. The OP's reply to Tari was inappropriate in its ignorance and callous dismissal of not only her but others here who have made some valid points about the OP's lack of a comprehensible understanding of business in general and starting a business here in SL referring to them as 'cancerous' to which Tari then used the term 'butthurt'. Further on someone suggested the OP was a 'tool' and even that was kinder than what I would have said of them.

Try not to succumb to the "need" to respond based on emotionality.

Yes, really.

On the contrary, in Tari's first post to the OP in this thread, she stated, "To be honest, I'm fairly certain your britches are bigger than your body can hold up". Now, I can't say that I understand it but it certainly sounds rude. If it had been written to me, I would have tried to find out what it meant, and then it would have got my back up, and I would have probably replied to it in a similar way. Tari started it, and the OP's response showed that she can handle herself..

The OP's posts in this thread have had one thing in common - a desire to understand SL from the perspective of what she described. One or two people posted accordingly, for which she thanked them, and learned from them. Others have been saying that it will fail, but they haven't said why they think that other than, 'it's been tried and it failed'. Apart from the fact that it hasn't been tried, saying that it failed, without explaing why it failed, is no good to man not beast. It was a waste of time posting it. The problem is that nobody here has had the experience to know one way or the other. But when their opinion wasn't taken as gospel, they have tended to write negative stuff about the OP. It's gross stupidity.

Incidentally, i haven't posted from emotion. I've posted from cold logic - from what I've seen in this thread.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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45 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I feel the need to come in here. You don't know that what the OP is saying won't work, Tari. What you say you know is that some people tried some things that are not totally dissimilar, and failed, but you don't know why they failed. You don't know, for instance, whether or not it was because they weren't people with good business skills and experience. From it, you cannot realistically deduce that anyone else who comes along will also fail. You can't do that in RL and you can't do it in SL. You can't even realistically say that what the OP described will fail, because you haven't seen it being tried by a competent business person.

Also, there is no need to get heavy with someone, using words like 'butthurt, just because they don't accept your word as being either gospel or experienced in the matter. It doesn't do anyone any good, including you.

I think you need to read further into the thread. Yes I can say with confidence why certain things did or did not work. What I cannot do, will not do, and did not do, is say that ALL instances failed for the same reasons. The reasons they failed may fall under a certain few umbrellas, overall, but that doesn't mean each individual instance didn't have its own circumstance-which, again, I stated perfectly, and even mentioned that they can have multiple different contributing factors in their overall success and failure. 

I can say, with certainty, that there are components the OP wishes to incorporate (via reading the thread, rather than select pieces of it) which cannot work in the gaming sim industry in sl, when they go against specifically HOW the gaming sims in sl work(not whether or not they are successful, mind you, but rather their basic functionality). Gaming sims have some unique characteristics that other areas within sl simply don't have. One of them is the massive amount of limitations placed on them, their owners, operators, and even the visitors. None of these things were taken into consideration by the OP, even after being told that they are in fact limitations. These limitations alone make some of the things the OP wants to see, unable to ever be brought to fruition. When we were allowed to have casinos in sl, we did not have these limitations, it was FAR easier to have and run casinos in sl back then, and even then people struggled(again, for varied reasons, though I think most folks will agree that many businesses struggle tremendously because the person in charge doesn't have the knowledge or experience necessary to keep it afloat). Now, with all of the restrictions, limitations and less interest in such things, even formerly successful casino owners would struggle to keep places successful.

There are actually quite a few gaming regions today(more than I'd expected to see, to be honest), but whether or not they are *successful*, is an entirely different matter. They, just like many other ventures in sl, may simply be open because the person that owns them enjoys doing so. You will see it in all areas in sl..clubs are a fine example of someone that does it just because they enjoy doing it, not necessarily because it pays for itself or rakes in the big cash. The OP doesn't want something that is just enjoyable to run, the OP wants something to rake in the big cash. Using the commentary made by the OP, and the desires expressed, that is not something that would come to fruition in even the best circumstance, BECAUSE of the limitations that gaming sims have today. 

I never said anyone had to take my word as gospel, nor would I. I would think you've been posting here long enough with me to know that by now. I may have knowledge about some things, but I am far from someone that would ever call myself an expert on ANYTHING. The word butthurt, is hardly the heaviest commentary used by someone in this thread...far, far from it.  

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3 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Yes, really.

On the contrary, in Tari's first post to the OP in this thread, she stated, "To be honest, I'm fairly certain your britches are bigger than your body can hold up". Now, I can't say that I understand it but it certainly sounds rude. If it had been written to me, I would have tried to find out what it meant, and then it would have got my back up, and I would have probably replied to it in a similar way. Tari started it.

The OP's posts in this thread have had one thing in common - a desire to understand SL from the perspective of what she described. One or two people posted accordingly, for which she thanked them, and learned from them. Others have been saying that it will fail, but they haven't said why they think that other than, 'it's been tried and it failed'. Apart from the fact that it hasn't been tried, saying that it failed, without explaing why it failed, is no good to man not beast. It was a waste of time posting it. The problem is that nobody here has had the experience to know one way or the other. But when their opinion wasn't taken as gospel, they have tended to write negative stuff about the OP. It's gross stupidity.

Incidentally, i haven't posted from emotion. I've posted from cold logic - from what I've seen in this thread.

When replying to the thread, I took context into consideration, and that context included ALL of the OP's posts...not just this one, in this thread. Yes, it does matter when the OP is approaching every single subject the exact same way.....and the arrogance presented by the OP in each and every post isn't helping any. 

Hence my final comment to the OP in this thread(and why none of my further comments will actually be directed towards the OP). I think, after reading through every single post made by the OP on the forums..there is some level of hurt going on there, causing a serious lashing out that looks a lot more like a temper tantrum than a simple disagreement for no real reason, and I'd rather not continue to be any more judgmental than I already am based on words alone. I do my best to give people the benefit of the doubt...even when they behave like jerks. 

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@Tari Landar I did read further into the thread. I'm aware that you said you owned and ran a casino. I'm also aware that that didn't give you the experience to state that the OP's idea will fail. A casino is only part of it. I'm also aware that you said that your casino didn't fail as such, but that it ceased due to RL circumstances. If all that is true, then you have even less experience to offer guidance from. An experience of failure would be worthwhile.

I know you didn't say that anyone had to take your word as gospel, but you've been arguing with the OP, using words like 'butthurt', because she didn't take your word for things. How much better it would have been if you'd adopted the stance that, 'I've offered what I have. Take it or leave it'.

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4 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

When replying to the thread, I took context into consideration, and that context included ALL of the OP's posts...not just this one, in this thread. Yes, it does matter when the OP is approaching every single subject the exact same way.....and the arrogance presented by the OP in each and every post isn't helping any.

I read this thread, and I commented on this thread. That's all. The OP's posts in this thread read as sensible and with a desire to gain understanding, which one or two people helped with. Many of the other people's posts were nothing to be proud of. If the OP's other posts were anything like the ones in this thread, well.... But I don't know. I haven't read them.

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4 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

ari Landar I did read further into the thread. I'm aware that you said you owned and ran a casino. I'm also aware that that didn't give you the experience to state that the OP's idea will fail. A casino is only part of it. I'm also aware that you said that your casino didn't fail as such, but that it ceased due to RL circumstances. If all that is true, then you have even less experience to offer guidance from. An experience of failure would be worthwhile.

I know you didn't say that anyone had to take your word as gospel, but you've been arguing with the OP, using words like 'butthurt', because she didn't take your word for things. How much better it would have been if you'd adopted the stance that, 'I've offered what I have. Take it or leave it'.

You probably shouldn't assume why someone used the word they used. OP not taking my word as gospel, isn't why I used the word butthurt.  The butthurt comment was a direct result of the OPs own comments calling me cancerous, not listening to anything anyone in the thread had already shared(also calling such advice in the same post, cancerous). In a previous time in my life, I might actually take that phrase, calling me cancerous, as much more of an insult than I did here...kinda stings a little when things hit home, but since there's really no way for the OP, or anyone, to know why it would sting and hit home so hard...I try my hardest *now* to not be nearly as offended by that kind of thing. A few years ago, it would have likely been a far different response from me, one likely ripe with just as much aggression as the OP demonstrated. Again...because it stings. It would have most definitely been an emotional response on my end if I had, too. I still think it was an idiotic comment, and continuing to use it only reisterated that belief to me, but, who hasn't made idiotic comments here and there that may very well offend someone, because they hit a sensitive nerve in rl?

 You may not have read the OP's other posts, and perhaps you don't need to. I did, and tend to do so when someone so aggressively comes back with "yes it will" when folks with more experience and knowledge say "no it won't", or "no, it cannot be done". That's also where the phrase your britches may be bigger than your body can hold. Though, i suppose I can see where someone might take that the wrong way, it's not always really an insult. It's, to me, similar to saying "you're thinking too big/too much, without considering all of the components here".  I would have gladly explained it, too. Like I said, it's not often I ruffle the feathers of anyone, much less someone so much that they respond the way OP did, lol.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Yes, really.

On the contrary, in Tari's first post to the OP in this thread, she stated, "To be honest, I'm fairly certain your britches are bigger than your body can hold up". Now, I can't say that I understand it but it certainly sounds rude. If it had been written to me, I would have tried to find out what it meant, and then it would have got my back up, and I would have probably replied to it in a similar way. Tari started it, and the OP's response showed that she can handle herself..

The OP's posts in this thread have had one thing in common - a desire to understand SL from the perspective of what she described. One or two people posted accordingly, for which she thanked them, and learned from them. Others have been saying that it will fail, but they haven't said why they think that other than, 'it's been tried and it failed'. Apart from the fact that it hasn't been tried, saying that it failed, without explaing why it failed, is no good to man not beast. It was a waste of time posting it. The problem is that nobody here has had the experience to know one way or the other. But when their opinion wasn't taken as gospel, they have tended to write negative stuff about the OP. It's gross stupidity.

Incidentally, i haven't posted from emotion. I've posted from cold logic - from what I've seen in this thread.

Naw that isn't rude. Merely a simple statement of the OP's overestimation of their ability. Again, I can supply more accurate examples of rude if you desire. ;)

When you begin a post with 'I feel the need to step in here.', you are posting from emotionality. Though the post itself may be logical the motivation is still emotion based, which is what I meant. 

 

ETA It has been a long while since I have seen the cancer reference used here in regard to a poster. Not since I likened someones presence here in the forums as such and metastisizing throughout and if you know who I am referring to then you will see that the OP's use of the term is beyond hyperbole in regard to Tari by comparison. lol

Edited by Derek Torvalar
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39 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Naw that isn't rude. Merely a simple statement of the OP's overestimation of their ability

Then it's rude. Tari has no idea what abilities the OP has or hasn't got.

You can call it what you like, but it was cold logic that caused me to post. I could have equally said, "I see a need for me to...". It amount s to the same thing but, as I said, you can call what it what you like.

 

@Tari Landar and @Derek Torvalar I've said what I had to say. The evidence still points me in the same direction, so there's no point in discussing it with me. I'm certainly not going to discuss it any more. You don't have to take my word for it, or treat what I said as gospel. It's what I think about the thread, and that's all there is for me to say. Of course, you can discuss it amongst yourselves. I'm out of it though.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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