Chinami1000 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 So it appears to me, depending on the % payout, that being an owner of a casi...no, a skill gaming location could be profitable. And the ones that do exist aren't put together very well, so I think a good designer could really do well. So in my quest to be the next Steve Wynn I have come across a problem... I cannot find anyone selling the machines - on the marketplace or on the broader internet. Someone know a secret I don't know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase01 Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Here ya go Wynn. Skill Gaming Before you think you found the cure for cancer, you might wanna get your feet wet first. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Chinami1000 said: Someone know a secret I don't know? Yeah... A Casi...No... Needs 1. An Approved Skill Gaming Region, that means forking out for Premium, forking out for a full region, then forking out for the conversion fee then forking out the increased tier. 2 Your Approved machines have to come from Approved machine makers, who have to pay registration fees etc... 3. To put your Approved machines on your Approved region, you have to be an... Approved Operator 4. They are not approving any more opperators just now. 5. Don't give up your day job... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucia Nightfire Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 But remember, all those extra fees are for LL to maintain legal counsel any time any gambling laws need to be litigated. How often is that happening again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Klytyna said: Yeah... A Casi...No... Needs 1. An Approved Skill Gaming Region, that means forking out for Premium, forking out for a full region, then forking out for the conversion fee then forking out the increased tier. 2 Your Approved machines have to come from Approved machine makers, who have to pay registration fees etc... 3. To put your Approved machines on your Approved region, you have to be an... Approved Operator 4. They are not approving any more opperators just now. 5. Don't give up your day job... Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware of the 4th point. It makes sense and I should have assumed it, but I want to grab someone there and shake them by the shoulders and toss some water in their face. I really just wanted to scratch out some math to determine the total set up fee - which is all of the things you put in #1, plus buying the actual machines and of course the time put in by your designer/builder. At that point I'd be looking for whoever is best at that and paying them some good money. The skill games places right now look like the kind of places that Native Americans used to throw up in a hurry on their reservations where state laws can't ban casinos, or else the 'charity poker' places that are 'sweepstakes' joints and not gambling - which they'll put under a damn tent or in a steel building with a gym floor and no drywall. The SL locations aren't even as nice as downtown Reno. lol Someone is going to come along, put 10 or 15 grand down, build a nice place that looks like a casino, and they'll put a music stage and shopping there. Instead these places now have way too many machines sitting unused wasting their prims. And they'll suck the life out of all the others. LL needs to do what the gaming boards in the states do. Make the licenses expensive, but take them away from the operators who are not giving their industry a good presentation. Then you charge the ***** out of the next guy who wants a license - and participate in the planning of the next hotel. These aren't 'casinos' but they give that feel and there's nothing wrong with that. The only question that remains is how many machines do you need and what rake do they need to have to bring in a positive flow of 100,000 or so lindens daily. At least 50,000. These places should be giving away mesh clothes or other exclusive goodies as players rewards. They are all so linear right now. Then of course you replicate it every time a license becomes available. Just like the original real estate barons did - they cornered the market. If LL stays invested in SL (hopefully upgrading the engine and adding HD textures, cleaning up the stupid things in game - and hopefully cross promoting with Sansar) there's potential for a long time. Now, who do I know who knows someone in San Francisco. Edited September 17, 2017 by Chinami1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I don't think you understand what gaming sims in sl are used for, why people have them, why they enjoy them, or even how any of it works, lol. I'd stop comparing it to casinos in rl if I were you, as the only real similarities is that they both have games people can play...that's about it. A gaming sim in sl with a club, plus games, plus other entertainment, plus amazing decor and atmosphere, is going to be astronomically expensive, and even more astronomically difficult to maintain positive cash flow. It's just not a realistic idea, regardless of how awesome it might sound in theory...in practice, it would be dead in the water before it ever got off the dock. No one really goes to gaming sims for any type of entertainment OTHER than playing games. They don't go to watch a show, they don't go to visit a club, they don't go to see an event....don't really think I need to continue. To be honest, I'm fairly certain your britches are bigger than your body can hold up, lol. I'm not attempting to be rude, in fact I try my hardest not to be...but you really shouldn't jump so gung ho into the "this is how sl should be" stuff, let alone the "let's make lots of money" ideas, if you're new...hell even if you've been here for ages. It helps a lot to actually read what others have been posting, and take it to heart..even if you might not agree with them. These are some smart folks, they've given you lots of great advice, but you seem hell bent on not listening, lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Tari Landar said: I don't think you understand what gaming sims in sl are used for, why people have them, why they enjoy them, or even how any of it works, lol. I'd stop comparing it to casinos in rl if I were you, as the only real similarities is that they both have games people can play...that's about it. A gaming sim in sl with a club, plus games, plus other entertainment, plus amazing decor and atmosphere, is going to be astronomically expensive, and even more astronomically difficult to maintain positive cash flow. It's just not a realistic idea, regardless of how awesome it might sound in theory...in practice, it would be dead in the water before it ever got off the dock. No one really goes to gaming sims for any type of entertainment OTHER than playing games. They don't go to watch a show, they don't go to visit a club, they don't go to see an event....don't really think I need to continue. To be honest, I'm fairly certain your britches are bigger than your body can hold up, lol. I'm not attempting to be rude, in fact I try my hardest not to be...but you really shouldn't jump so gung ho into the "this is how sl should be" stuff, let alone the "let's make lots of money" ideas, if you're new...hell even if you've been here for ages. It helps a lot to actually read what others have been posting, and take it to heart..even if you might not agree with them. These are some smart folks, they've given you lots of great advice, but you seem hell bent on not listening, lol. You've annoyed me enough, which is rare, that I'll tell you what I think. I think people like you who say things are too hard for OTHER people to do are cancerous. I've taken good advice but if I quit every time a puzzle seemed complicated I'd be like one of the millions of poor and frustrated... and cancerous people on the internet. Unless you have personally tried this idea and want to tell me where it went wrong, your OPINIONS are worthless. Otherwise answer questions with facts and keep your damn opinions to yourself... or move on. And don't tell me you're trying to "save me time and heartache". That's even more cancerous. I know what I'm doing in business. Yes, girls can be good at business too. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) Dear lord, the butthurt is strong... Stick around for a while, and you might just realize how wrong you are about me Btw...I beat cancer once, I can kick its ass any day of the week...but thanks for that You're barking up the wrong tree here lady, but I'll let you keep right on barking, lol. Edited September 17, 2017 by Tari Landar 7 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 Just now, Tari Landar said: Dear lord, the butthurt is strong... Stick around for a while, and you might just realize how wrong you are about me Btw...I beat cancer once, I can kick it's ass any day of the week...but thanks for that You're barking up the wrong tree here lady, but I'll let you keep right on barking, lol. If I had a dollar for every time someone told me something was impossible I'd have a lot of money. But I don't have a dollar for every time someone said that, I have a lot more than just 1. Tari, I don't know about medical cancer, but you are energetic cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) There is a difference between something being simply difficult(and I ALWAYS encourage folks to reach for their dreams, most especially when difficult, the challenge makes it worth it), and something simply not being feasible in the given situation. There are few things in the world that are impossible. I also didn't say it was impossible, I said what you presented would be dead in the water, and it would-it has nothing to do with one's personal capabilities or business sense, but merely the way sl functions as a whole, and the entire idea behind gaming sims, how they function, why they work, why they don't, etc.. The reasons being primarily related to the sheer cost, the ability to bring in traffic(not all residents can visit gaming sims, which is something that wasn't previously mentioned), the idea of taking a target audience into consideration(people visiting gaming sims do not want to go to them for an entertainment event, ie. a club), how lag can affect a sim and its patrons...there are loads of reasons why it doesn't work. How do I know it doesn't work? Because it's been tried, and failed, back when casinos were actually permitted in sl, to long after they were disallowed but gaming still existed, right on up to, and through, the current situation we have with the implementation of gaming sims. I never said it was a bad idea...it's not a bad idea, it's a good idea, it's just not realistic for sl, simply due to limitations that exist within sl and its functionality. Perhaps in the future it could potentially happen..but in its current state, with current functionality, current policies, current user and system capabilities...it cannot. I am far from energetically cancerous...but, again, you'd have to stick around and actually read what others(including me) have posted on the forums to figure that out. Edited September 17, 2017 by Tari Landar 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) Back when SL had casinos that didn't have to pretend to be "skill gaming", I used to build the damned things under contract to one of the big operators (who also developed the slot machines, such as they were, and licensed them out to other operators with their own casinos). This was almost ten years ago now. For whatever that experience is worth today, the operators did insist on what were then high-quality, creative builds -- but they were small parcels, like 512 typically, a 1024 was splurging, and a 4096 would have been an extravagant flagship site for a large operator with at least a few smaller casinos locations. Why? Well, mainland was much more expensive back then (and Estates were rare and even more expensive), so reducing operating costs may have been one reason, but also: It really didn't seem to matter what size they were, even at the busiest times only a handful of players would go to a location, beyond which folks would go to other sites instead. We even tried to make the big locations look like several attached smaller ones. I think the reason was that gamblers really didn't want to be surrounded by a busy place. I had one design that looked a bit like the Guggenheim, spiraled to preserve sight-line privacy. Anyway, even with all the change in SL (and the law) since then, I think it would be very difficult for a skill gaming location to get much advantage from non-gaming activities intended to draw in more players. On the other hand, I realize that gaming sites must be full regions now, so even though the population of skill-gamers is dwindling, any way to amortize the huge full-sim land costs over more of those remaining players would be a win -- if it exists. Edited September 17, 2017 by Qie Niangao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, Tari Landar said: There is a difference between something being simply difficult(and I ALWAYS encourage folks to reach for their dreams, most especially when difficult, the challenge makes it worth it), and something simply not being feasible in the given situation. There are few things in the world that are impossible. I also didn't say it was impossible, I said what you presented would be dead in the water, and it would-it has nothing to do with one's personal capabilities or business sense, but merely the way sl functions as a whole, and the entire idea behind gaming sims, how they function, why they work, why they don't, etc.. The reasons being primarily related to the sheer cost, the ability to bring in traffic(not all residents can visit gaming sims, which is something that wasn't previously mentioned), the idea of taking a target audience into consideration(people visiting gaming sims do not want to go to them for an entertainment event, ie. a club), how lag can affect a sim and its patrons...there are loads of reasons why it doesn't work. How do I know it doesn't work? Because it's been tried, and failed, back when casinos were actually permitted in sl, to long after they were disallowed but gaming still existed, right on up to, and through, the current situation we have with the implementation of gaming sims. I never said it was a bad idea...it's not a bad idea, it's a good idea, it's just not realistic for sl, simply due to limitations that exist within sl and its functionality. Perhaps in the future it could potentially happen..but in its current state, with current functionality, current policies, current user and system capabilities...it cannot. I am far from energetically cancerous...but, again, you'd have to stick around and actually read what others(including me) have posted on the forums to figure that out. How come I'm so lucky to get this valuable business class and live coaching? Again, if you have not done it, I don't want your opinion. Everybody has a hundred opinions about things they have never done. Here's a life lesson I'll give you - when someone gives you an opinion, ask them "how do you know?" You'll save hundreds of hours and you won't have to talk to people like you - who know everything is impossible but haven't done any of it. You're negative. And a narcissist. That's a bad combination sister. Ciao. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: Back when SL had casinos that didn't have to pretend to be "skill gaming", I used to build the damned things under contract to one of the big operators (who also developed the slot machines, such as they were, and licensed them out to other operators with their own casinos). This was almost ten years ago now. For whatever that experience is worth today, the operators did insist on what were then high-quality, creative builds -- but they were small parcels, like 512 typically, a 1024 was splurging, and a 4096 would have been an extravagant flagship site for a large operator with at least a few smaller casinos locations. Why? Well, mainland was much more expensive back then (and Estates were rare and even more expensive), so reducing operating costs may have been one reason, but also: It really didn't seem to matter what size they were, even at the busiest times only a handful of players would go to at a location, and then folks would go to other sites instead. We even tried to make the big locations look like several attached smaller ones. I think the reason was that gamblers really didn't want to be surrounded by a busy place. I had one design that looked a bit like the Guggenheim, spiraled to preserve sight-line privacy. Anyway, even with all the change in SL (and the law) since then, I think it would be very difficult for a skill gaming location to get much advantage from non-gaming activities intended to draw in more players. On the other hand, I realize that gaming sites must be full regions now, so even though the population of skill-gamers is dwindling, any way to amortize the huge full-sim land costs over more of those remaining players would be a win -- if it exists. Appreciate that. Thanks. Your last thought was my initial reaction. I think a smaller gaming floor with the shopping and a music stage would be a winner. The place just has to look nice. What do you think the odds are of partnering with an existing operator - to upgrade their location and incorporate some new ideas? Tari Lander - THESE are the people you should listen to in life, not the ones who have no experience but tell you everything is impossible anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, Chinami1000 said: How come I'm so lucky to get this valuable business class and live coaching? Again, if you have not done it, I don't want your opinion. Everybody has a hundred opinions about things they have never done. Here's a life lesson I'll give you - when someone gives you an opinion, ask them "how do you know?" You'll save hundreds of hours and you won't have to talk to people like you - who know everything is impossible but haven't done any of it. You're negative. And a narcissist. That's a bad combination sister. Ciao. Obviously Tari's opinion means more to you than you care to admit. Would you like me to provide you with a more accurate characterization of you than you have of Tari? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Chinami1000 said: Appreciate that. Thanks. Your last thought was my initial reaction. I think a smaller gaming floor with the shopping and a music stage would be a winner. The place just has to look nice. What do you think the odds are of partnering with an existing operator - to upgrade their location and incorporate some new ideas? Tari Lander - THESE are the people you should listen to in life, not the ones who have no experience but tell you everything is impossible anyway. It's possible. If you create a new avatar and start over. Because you're managing to make this one look like a tool. 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: It's possible. If you create a new avatar and start over. Because you're managing to make this one look like a tool. haha. That's easy enough. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 I should say that I do not discount Tari's comments. Although ten years ago I spent a lot of time watching folks gamble, trying to find ways to draw in more of them, I really don't have any current experience even going to a skill gaming region, so anything I say on this subject deserves objective skepticism. As to partnering, I'm not sure how that could work financially. Somehow an existing operator would need to be convinced that your contribution would add revenue to make margin on any associated costs. It's not impossible, I guess, but it involves a conversation I personally wouldn't know how to start and projections I wouldn't know how to calculate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 18 minutes ago, Chinami1000 said: How come I'm so lucky to get this valuable business class and live coaching? Again, if you have not done it, I don't want your opinion. Everybody has a hundred opinions about things they have never done. Here's a life lesson I'll give you - when someone gives you an opinion, ask them "how do you know?" You'll save hundreds of hours and you won't have to talk to people like you - who know everything is impossible but haven't done any of it. You're negative. And a narcissist. That's a bad combination sister. Ciao. Oh bless your dear heart. I owned and ran a casino in sl when they were still permitted, both by law, and by LL. I have owned and run several successful businesses, especially in the enterrtainment industry, in sl, partnered with countless others on collaborations, and generally read as much about and learn from the experiences of others in sl as well. I am also someone that used to enjoy gaming sims, have a lot of friends that currently enjoy them......and...I listen to people-which is extremely important when it comes to business ventures in sl which can present unique challenges, even obstacles that are not possible to overcome, simply due to how it currently functions. I don't know what your idea of qualifications actually is...but if it's based on experience alone, I have a pretty big resume. Before you assume I no longer do those things because they failed...I no longer do those things because working, homeschooling, pursuing my own degrees and health concerns for me and my children prevent me from putting in the dedication and money necessary to keep such ventures afloat....THAT is what experience has taught me..knowledge. Have a fantastic day sunshine 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Tari Landar said: Oh bless your dear heart. I owned and ran a casino in sl when they were still permitted, both by law, and by LL. I have owned and run several successful businesses, especially in the enterrtainment industry, in sl, partnered with countless others on collaborations, and generally read as much about and learn from the experiences of others in sl as well. I am also someone that used to enjoy gaming sims, have a lot of friends that currently enjoy them......and...I listen to people-which is extremely important when it comes to business ventures in sl which can present unique challenges, even obstacles that are not possible to overcome, simply due to how it currently functions. I don't know what your idea of qualifications actually is...but if it's based on experience alone, I have a pretty big resume. Before you assume I no longer do those things because they failed...I no longer do those things because working, homeschooling, pursuing my own degrees and health concerns for me and my children prevent me from putting in the dedication and money necessary to keep such ventures afloat....THAT is what experience has taught me..knowledge. Have a fantastic day sunshine no you didn't. i know that with 0 doubt. other people did those things. you're taking credit. people with expertise who have done things are positive and they provide details. see above. and don't blame your kids for things either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parhelion Palou Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 55 minutes ago, Chinami1000 said: no you didn't. i know that with 0 doubt. other people did those things. you're taking credit. people with expertise who have done things are positive and they provide details. see above. and don't blame your kids for things either. Better create that new avatar soon. I think you've just put yourself on a lot of block lists. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Chinami1000 said: Someone is going to come along, put 10 or 15 grand down, build a nice place that looks like a casino, and they'll put a music stage and shopping there. Instead these places now have way too many machines sitting unused wasting their prims. And they'll suck the life out of all the others. You're ignoring fundamental differences between Real Life and Second Life. With real life, distance and time are major factors. Most people have to make a conscious decision to block out a period of time to travel to a casino, and when they're there they will probably need to eat and sleep. If it's a major trip it will be nice to have things to do other than simply gambling. On the other hand resources within the development aren't usually major factors. If you have 300 people watching a live show it will have no impact on the gaming floor for those who decide not to watch the show. With this in mind, what you propose is a good model for a real-life casino. However, in Second Life these factors are completely reversed. You can get from any point to any other point instantly. If someone is looking for gaming they can instantly go to any possible gaming establishment, and if they want to do something else they can instantly go to another place optimized for that activity. On the other hand, in Second Life as it stands now resources for any given region are strictly limited. If people are attending a show, those people are either preventing others from arriving at that region to use the game machines or are at the very least increasing the load on the simulator and possibly causing the game hardware to glitch. So, in Second Life the ideal concept for any place is to optimize it for one specific activity. Given a choice of any gaming establishment, a serious player will naturally want to go to the places that offer the highest payout, and high payouts can naturally only be given by places with the lowest operating expenses. The things you propose will raise operating expenses. After fourteen years, things in Second Life have evolved into what they have for a reason. It's going to be difficult to change things if you don't understand the reason why things are they way they are. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said: You're ignoring fundamental differences between Real Life and Second Life. With real life, distance and time are major factors. Most people have to make a conscious decision to block out a period of time to travel to a casino, and when they're there they will probably need to eat and sleep. If it's a major trip it will be nice to have things to do other than simply gambling. On the other hand resources within the development aren't usually major factors. If you have 300 people watching a live show it will have no impact on the gaming floor for those who decide not to watch the show. With this in mind, what you propose is a good model for a real-life casino. However, in Second Life these factors are completely reversed. You can get from any point to any other point instantly. If someone is looking for gaming they can instantly go to any possible gaming establishment, and if they want to do something else they can instantly go to another place optimized for that activity. On the other hand, in Second Life as it stands now resources for any given region are strictly limited. If people are attending a show, those people are either preventing others from arriving at that region to use the game machines or are at the very least increasing the load on the simulator and possibly causing the game hardware to glitch. So, in Second Life the ideal concept for any place is to optimize it for one specific activity. Given a choice of any gaming establishment, a serious player will naturally want to go to the places that offer the highest payout, and high payouts can naturally only be given by places with the lowest operating expenses. The things you propose will raise operating expenses. After fourteen years, things in Second Life have evolved into what they have for a reason. It's going to be difficult to change things if you don't understand the reason why things are they way they are. So tell me then, why do the existing music clubs put shopping all around them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Just now, Chinami1000 said: So tell me then, why do the existing music clubs put shopping all around them? Because they were built before the Marketplace made satellite stores essentially obsolete, and they can still get people who don't know better to pay rent in them for a while. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinami1000 Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Because they were built before the Marketplace made satellite stores essentially obsolete, and they can still get people who don't know better to pay rent in them for a while. You've been here a LONG time. Have you owned a club or shopping center? You also mentioned how players will go to the highest payout. No doubt, but I've been looking for payout rates and haven't been able to find them. So how would the players know? If they don't know, wouldn't they likely choose the place with the best atmosphere and player benefits, etc? I know that as I've hopped around for a while the one I like best is the one with a set of games that offer a proportional payout and frequent player rewards. It 'feels' like I'm able to play for longer before the venue gets the cash. But I don't really know the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Chinami1000 said: You've been here a LONG time. Have you owned a club or shopping center? You also mentioned how players will go to the highest payout. No doubt, but I've been looking for payout rates and haven't been able to find them. So how would the players know? If they don't know, wouldn't they likely choose the place with the best atmosphere and player benefits, etc? I know that as I've hopped around for a while the one I like best is the one with a set of games that offer a proportional payout and frequent player rewards. It 'feels' like I'm able to play for longer before the venue gets the cash. But I don't really know the numbers. I really haven't been here long at all. I have friends who own or have owned clubs - I remember one who used to put grandiose, empty shopping malls in front of them. They usually lasted a few months at most - of course, she was restless and was known to start rebuilding the club in the middle of an event, so... I have a few little "businesses" that I built for my amusement and put tip jars in them - I consider the occasional tip a bonus. I found that I make more leaving them open and putting out tip jars than when I tried to charge people for their use. I've seen a number of more "serious" businesses open and close around me though; again, often with months or weeks of their starting. Edited September 18, 2017 by Theresa Tennyson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
YouTube
Flickr
Recommended Posts
Please take a moment to consider if this thread is worth bumping.