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Darrius Gothly

Where Is Your Line - SL vs RL

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   In my youth, I had pen pals with whom I would correspond, with varying infrequency. I never met any of them in person, nor exchanged photos. I had their letters. They had my letters. They were no less real friends to me than anyone I could make eye contact with. Identically, there is no difference to me between friends I make in SL, conversing with and exchanging advice, platitudes and emotions, and those I make and meet with in real space. To me, it was and is all the same.

   This is all I really feel I need to say in this ontological badminton.

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11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

And "belief" is the beginning of the end for arguments with me.

I don't really like to argue either. But in the end, everything is subjective and then more or less resumable in beliefs.

 

11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I fall back on science (which some claim is just another belief system).

Considering that we can not prove with total objectivity (into a parallel context different from our world) anything then maths are just as subjective than anything else.

It's one of the main axioms of pure mathematics : "a theory is accepted as true if it is falsifiable."

Edited by Morgan Rosenstar

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Lots of reactions on my posts. I'm not really surprised to see so many people that prefers to consider a pixel cat as a real thing... and vice versa?

I have not seen anyone indicate they believe a pixel cat (a person representing themselves in SL with a cat avatar) is real in the sense that it could jump out of the screen and roam their RL living room. If so, perhaps anti-psychotics are in order.
But I can relate to the person BEHIND the cat avatar in SL in the same way one could relate to a friend in RL wearing a Halloween cat suit. It is primarily the PERSON, or the relationship, that creates the reality of friendship or closeness -- not what they are wearing or using to represent their physical self.

Because of this I can feel that a friend in SL is the same as a friend in RL. What determines the closeness is what we've gone through together, what we've shared -- not what avatar or outfit they chose to wear in SL or RL.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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12 minutes ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

Considering that we can not prove with total objectivity (into a parallel context different from our world) anything then maths are just as subjective than anything else.

Fortunately, I'm an engineer, not a mathematician or philosopher. And once again I'll bring up a old joke to explain my position.

A mathematician (or philosopher if you wish) and an engineer (imagine me, please) are placed in a room, opposite an extremely attractive woman, and are told they may advance at will, but may take steps no larger than half the distance to her. The mathematician immediately throws up his hands and exclaims "I will never get to her!". Meanwhile the engineer takes five steps, ending up close enough for all practical purposes. If you want a display of street smarts rather than engineering prowess, the engineer just asks the woman to come over.

;-).

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Tuning the story.
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2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Fortunately, I'm an engineer, not a mathematician or philosopher. And once again I'll bring up a old joke to explain my position.

A mathematician (or philosopher if you wish) and an engineer (imagine me, please) are placed in a room, opposite an extremely attractive woman, and are told they may advance at will, but may take steps no larger than half the distance to her. The mathematician immediately throws up his hands and exclaims "I will never get to her!". Meanwhile I take five steps, placing me close enough for all practical purposes. If you want a display of my street smarts rather than engineering prowess, I just ask the women to come to me.

;-).

Don't add an astrophysician in the room because he might answer that he doesn't need to move and that there'll be a moment when the woman will be at his side without him moving.

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Just now, Morgan Rosenstar said:

Don't add an astrophysician in the room because he might answer that he doesn't need to move and that there'll be a moment when the woman will be at his side without him moving.

It could happen!

ETA: For those who are interested, look at Morgan's quote of me and my final edit to see how I tune a story.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But I can relate to the person BEHIND the cat avatar in SL in the same way one could relate to a friend in RL wearing a Halloween cat suit. It is primarily the PERSON, or the relationship, that creates the reality of friendship or closeness -- not what they are wearing or using to represent their physical self.

Yep, I've met people like that. People who are withdrawing what's IN FRONT of them and only interested by what's BEHIND. I usually ask them then why do they log in? Why do they even have an avatar? And if they were to be honest, why don't they turn off their screen?

They usually run away from me, calling me crazy, insane, non-sense, etc etc etc...

Edited by Morgan Rosenstar

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24 minutes ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

   In my youth, I had pen pals with whom I would correspond, with varying infrequency. I never met any of them in person, nor exchanged photos. I had their letters. They had my letters. They were no less real friends to me than anyone I could make eye contact with. Identically, there is no difference to me between friends I make in SL, conversing with and exchanging advice, platitudes and emotions, and those I make and meet with in real space. To me, it was and is all the same.

   This is all I really feel I need to say in this ontological badminton.

http://images.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=love+letters+between+people+who+never+met

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13 minutes ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:
  31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But I can relate to the person BEHIND the cat avatar in SL in the same way one could relate to a friend in RL wearing a Halloween cat suit. It is primarily the PERSON, or the relationship, that creates the reality of friendship or closeness -- not what they are wearing or using to represent their physical self.

 

13 minutes ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

Yep, I've met people like that. People who are withdrawing what's IN FRONT of them and only interested by what's BEHIND. I usually ask them then why do they log in? Why do they even have an avatar? And if they were to be honest, why don't they turn off their screen?

They usually run away from me, calling me crazy, insane, non-sense, etc etc etc...

You've done a bit of distorted extrapolation there...

I never said we did not experience the world around us... build, shop, go to parties, visit beautiful landscapes, or participate in any of the myriad of lovely external manifestations within SL. But through all our travels I always felt I was experiencing the virtual world with a real person in the same way I would in RL. I always keep a sense there's a real person behind the avatar.

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5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I never said we did not experience the world around us... build, shop, go to parties, visit beautiful landscapes, or participate in any of the myriad of lovely external manifestations within SL. But through all our travels I always felt I was experiencing the virtual world with a real person in the same way I would in RL. I always keep a sense there's a real person behind the avatar.

I can't. I've ridden a horse in rl and it's totally different than in SL. I just can not put these experiences on the same level. It's not the same.

Same with some people I'm meeting in SL. They speak more openly than they would in rl. I can't put it on the same level either.

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27 minutes ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:
37 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I never said we did not experience the world around us... build, shop, go to parties, visit beautiful landscapes, or participate in any of the myriad of lovely external manifestations within SL. But through all our travels I always felt I was experiencing the virtual world with a real person in the same way I would in RL. I always keep a sense there's a real person behind the avatar.

I can't. I've ridden a horse in rl and it's totally different than in SL. I just can not put these experiences on the same level. It's not the same.

Same with some people I'm meeting in SL. They speak more openly than they would in rl. I can't put it on the same level either.

I don't quite know what to say as these are very complex issues.
Sometimes I feel very disconnected when trying to create. At those times, it seems I can't allow my feelings to be there and nothing seems as real (in the sense of feeling a strong sense of aliveness).
My best works always came when I really felt I was actually in the forest, in the mountains, under the sea.
In many ways, how I've felt in those creatively high times is the way I usually feel in VR with the oculus rift.

Listening to music helps...the vibrations...causes an actual feeling in the body.

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2 hours ago, Talligurl said:

No, no photo is ever an honest representation of reality,

This is why we find historically prohibitions against visual depictions of the Deity, the Ancients understood far better than we do the shortfalls of an image, Our modern minds however are enamored by the photograph, which in reality is the most deceptive of all images, for the very reason that it seems so close to reality. 

1 hour ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

What I really said : "a virtual representation can not be true." You're extending my words about one thing to the whole virtuality.

As pointed above, I believe that you're extending a piece of something, a representation of something to the whole thing. I do not.

I take a more holistic approach to reality than you do. I think it is dangerous to chop it up into parts and treat each part as if it exists independent of the others, like it was a man made machine with interchangeable parts that can be taken out and changed without impacting, other parts, what is true about one part is a part of the truth about the whole. But your approach is the approach of the vast majority, at least in the modern Western World.

 

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1 hour ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

I can't. I've ridden a horse in rl and it's totally different than in SL. I just can not put these experiences on the same level. It's not the same.

Same with some people I'm meeting in SL. They speak more openly than they would in rl. I can't put it on the same level either.

There is the key to this whole back-n-forth. You said "I can't". Fair and fair. But others feel differently.

BTW: I haven't seen anyone saying they have the same intensity and "feel" riding a virtual horse as they do riding a real horse (or any similar SL vs RL experience). What they are saying is that their emotional response is enough for them to recognize it internally and validate it as a real emotion. If you can't, so be it. But you are not the same as others, and they are not the same as you.

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I would be lying if I said I didn't feel like some people that draw the "it's not real" line are in some ways disconnected from both reality and virtual reality, and it is by choice.  I would also be lying if I said I didn't believe some choose to do this because it makes the consequences, the repercussions,  "not real" in their own minds, and therefore they can, attempt, to attach no meaning to them, thereby lessening the overall potential effect(s).

I'd also by lying if I said I fully understood that mindset, that capability of drawing such a distinction at all times. I, in fact, do not fully understand this mindset for the very reason that I *feel*, I *believe* many people that make this distinction of difference between real and not real, at times, are flat out lying not just to themselves, but others as well, though I am certain they probably believe they have valid reasons for doing so, whether or not I understand or believe them. 

I've yet to meet one single person that actually has a very distinct line that does not exist merely for the purpose of avoiding potential effects, repercussions, consequences, etc...I have, however, run into more people than I care to count that do not want to feel, experience, etc.. those potential outcomes, so drawing a distinct "it's not real" line, helps aid them in their end goal, not just as it applies to virtual reality, but in many, many different instances in real life as well. Take, for instance, one who views video footage or photographs of a horrific accident- attaching the "this is real" thought process, can make one experience things/emotions/feelings/thoughts that he or she would rather not, so drawing the "this is just a video/picture" line and attempting to attach no reality to it, can avoid those things, reduce the likelihood that it will have an impact on him/her at all. I'd also be lying if I said those people didn't frighten me, if even ever so slightly, at times, because they are able to detach so,seemingly, easily. But that has far more to do with my own life experiences dealing with some people that do this very thing, than it does others. So, I try my best to accommodate others' need for some things to be "not real", because despite my own particular preferences, and despite my own life experiences, I don't get to dictate to others how they view life, or should...regardless of the impact it may or may not have on me, or others.

I think most humans, at our core, need to feel connections, to people, things, emotions, experiences, positive or negative(we need both, imo). I also feel those that try to sever said connections whenever possible, at whatever cost, are missing out on far more in life than they realize, even their own potential..and may even, indeed, need assistance with such a need to sever connections with the world around them(be it real, or virtual). But...that's just my assessment, which could very well be completely wrong(I'm frequently wrong, this would not surprise me, lol), it is just the impression I get from a lot of people that separate things on such levels. Then again, like I said, I've had way too many experiences with people like this, if I hadn't, I might think differently. 

We could banter all day about what actually IS real, versus what some THINK or FEEL is real...but at the end of the day...we could all be wrong, probably are, and none of us would ever know it. 

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I think we may not be looking at the situation correctly.  It's not how separate you keep RL and SL, it's how much you are willing to share with different people.  For one thing, SL is a part of my real life.  I am still real even in SL.

Not only that, it's not like I am all that upfront and sharing with people in the real world, either.  No one at works knows what my favorite hobby is. And just like in SL, most of them don't know my real hair color, either :)

Maybe it's not so much that I keep RL and SL separate, I just don't trust people in either life very much.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Maybe it's not so much that I keep RL and SL separate, I just don't trust people in either life very much.

This is also what was going to form the basis of my reply to this thread.

My SL partner of 8 years pretty much knows all there is to know right down to my address, my kids birthdays  (he shares one)  but that was a trust thing that developed over time. I certainly didn't rush in on day 1 and say hi, here's my phone number/email/skype/address/first born child but he was the 2nd person I called when I was taken ill and rushed to hospital.

I have other friends from SL that I have met in RL.  I even went on holiday to Amsterdam to meet up with one who was over from Australia. So sharing a hotel bedroom and that whole will she even be there when I get off this plane was a huge trust issue.

I have certain SL friends who know more about me than even close RL friends as we spend more time together on a daily basis and the trust has grown enough to share things.

I have RL friends who know about my SL friends. 

I am rambling now but I think my point is it is all down to trust. as to how much I let you in to the important stuff.

 

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12 hours ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

Same with some people I'm meeting in SL. They speak more openly than they would in rl. I can't put it on the same level either.

So some people speaking more openly percludes real friendship with them for you? Could you explain how that works please? I don't understand it.

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4 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

So some people speaking more openly percludes real friendship with them for you? Could you explain how that works please? I don't understand it.

Do you know the difference between a gun and a gunner?

Do you know the difference between friendship and real friend?

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15 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

There is the key to this whole back-n-forth. You said "I can't". Fair and fair.

No. It'll be fair when you, you'll admit too that you can't do this or that.

15 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

But others feel differently.

Awesome argument.

15 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

BTW: I haven't seen anyone saying they have the same intensity and "feel" riding a virtual horse as they do riding a real horse (or any similar SL vs RL experience).

Then why are you talking about it here? Are you ok?

16 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

What they are saying is that their emotional response is enough for them to recognize it internally and validate it as a real emotion.

I know a good product for you :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyrcxdFfSyI

If it speaks like a real friend and make you feel like a real friend then it's a real friend.

What if I don't buy this like they? I'm very fine with that.

 

16 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

But you are not the same as others, and they are not the same as you.

Yeah yeah. They are they, I'm me. They're not me, I'm not them. Life is life and so be it.

It's a way to close a discussion.

But before this, I will ask one last thing. Read this :

"a theory is accepted as true if it is falsifiable."

I'm sure you understand the words, I'm sure that every word makes sense for you but I'm really not sure you understand the sentence. That's the difference between me and they. What if they can't do it? So be it.

Have a good day.

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So to sum up at least part of the back and forth here: A user pretending to be a philosopher decides that their world view is the only correct one and that those who do not 'admit' said world view is correct/true are not only in the wrong but insinuates that there is something wrong with them because of it.

When reminded that such is not how the world actually works/is and reminded that each person has different views, said user then willingly misinterprets the reminder as an attempt to cause cessation of discussion.

Most of this having started over the rather odd notions that Role Play is the same as acting in a Theater or for a screenplay of some sort and that those you converse with online are somehow incapable of being a person's friends.

To those two notions I say the following: Way to have an extremely narrow viewpoint. By that 'logic' things such as pen and paper RPGs as well as their electronic counterparts ought to drop the Role Playing from their designations. By that 'logic' the simple little games most of us played when we were children had nothing at all to do with playing a role. I'll trust psychologists/psychotherapists and such before I will give any weight at all to your opinion on the matter.

For your views concerning friends and friendship, I'll go so far as to say that you do not understand the difference yourself as to be a real friend there is no requirement whatsoever to meet outside of whatever online environment you converse in. After all by your 'logic' people who met online or in some other nonphysical environment and end up falling in love then later go on to have quite the long lasting relationship - often without meeting physically for a time - simply should not exist or there is something seriously wrong with them.

It is quite lovely that you can be so precisely detached as you infer you can. You are the exception, not the rule. I can not be the only one here who has been offended in some manner by your stance and what your words in this thread have implied.

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1 hour ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

 

17 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

BTW: I haven't seen anyone saying they have the same intensity and "feel" riding a virtual horse as they do riding a real horse (or any similar SL vs RL experience).

Then why are you talking about it here? Are you ok?

17 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

What they are saying is that their emotional response is enough for them to recognize it internally and validate it as a real emotion.

I know a good product for you :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyrcxdFfSyI

...

Have a good day.

Darrius has always seemed more than okay to me. It's been my experience (as both victim and perp) that ad-hominem attacks arise when one's emotional response trumps (oh, how I wanted to capitalize that) one's rational response.

7 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

It is quite lovely that you (Morgan) can be so precisely detached as you infer you can. You are the exception, not the rule. I can not be the only one here who has been offended in some manner by your stance and what your words in this thread have implied.

I'm not offended! I have these little lines I draw between things that are real and aren't, things that affect me emotionally and don't, etc. Those lines sometimes move themselves without my consent, but that's not happening here.

And finally:

1 hour ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

But before this, I will ask one last thing. Read this :

"a theory is accepted as true if it is falsifiable."

I'm sure you (Darrius) understand the words, I'm sure that every word makes sense for you but I'm really not sure you understand the sentence. That's the difference between me and they. What if they can't do it? So be it.

It might be a different kind of line, but allowing oneself to be drawn into an emotional response in an online forum sure feels like crossing one to me. And if it is a different kind, it's not much different. So I'll take your response as falsification of your theory, though my own behavior over the years is already more evidence than I need. Redraw your line with the understanding that my opinion being in opposition to yours only has the meaning you give it. Don't give it enough meaning to make you angry, or appear so.

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8 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I have these little lines I draw between things that are real and aren't, things that affect me emotionally and don't, etc. Those lines sometimes move themselves without my consent, but that's not happening here.

Apparently, some people here believe that if someone is able to see the difference between a virtual representation and the real thing, she's an exception. And worst of all for them, if she does see that the representation/picture/avatar of someone is different that the real thing, that means she's dissociating them.

Different means different, not equal. It doesn't mean disconnected (hint : I even called it permeability).

Following their logic that their weakness forced to put behind my words, they should consult a therapist. And don't ever try to tell to them that "the universe is finite but not limited", they might want you straight into an asylum.

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20 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

So I'll take your response as falsification of your theory, though my own behavior over the years is already more evidence than I need. Redraw your line with the understanding that my opinion being in opposition to yours only has the meaning you give it. Don't give it enough meaning to make you angry, or appear so.

And vice versa, no? It appears angry for you. So why do you feel it this way?

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2 hours ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

And vice versa, no? It appears angry for you. So why do you feel it this way?

It's not a feeling, it's a conclusion drawn from experience. I can explain your ad-hominem attack on Darrius as the result of a either emotion or a poor understanding of how to defend a position. It could be either, but it's usually the former. I went with my sense of the probability, which is largely obtained by observation.

ETA: There's a third explanation for ad-hominem attacks. They can be quite effective when you're playing to a receptive audience, who are moved more by the emotion of a situation than the logic of it. It's a cynical ploy, but it works. Some people like a good brawl. I'm not sure they're possible.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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