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KittyCharming

Best slave collar with tonnes of animation?

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You still called creators lame, and lazy...sorry "lammers" and lazy, not just LL-which in and of itself, is ridiculous coming from someone that can't create. Yes you were, absolutely, rude, I would like to hope it wasn't intentional, but your further responses leave little room for that. Take into consideration the fact that creators don't have to make anything for you, or anyone else, to enjoy. Think for a bit on the kind of work that goes into creating products(yes, even SL as a whole). Consider the fact that if YOU could do it better, you would have already done so. These people have capabilities and talents that far exceed most of us. But, no, you insisted on insulting them all, and calling people names. 

 Can you really not understand how insulting that is to people that put hours, days, weeks, months..even up to years into product development? I know it's difficult for someone that doesn't make content to always understand what goes into making some things, but it shouldn't be THIS difficult. If creating were easy, everyone would do it ;) 

Yes SL has some limitations, and yes they can be annoying for creators...but it is hardly so poorly set up that "no developers can do anything". So much has been done, adapted, changed, developed, since sl's inception. To be honest, while yes some things are outdated, I'm surprised we've come as far as we have. For every one thing I don't like about SL, or how LL has chosen to develop certain things, there are at least ten that I do like. I'm the last person to stand up for LL in all things-as there is loads they don't do right, or could do better. But come on now, at some point, logic and reason has to come into play here. 

Ftr, there are probably countless people that would LIKE to create something as close to what you're looking for as one can possibly get in sl. I'd venture a guess that most wouldn't offer such products given the rant here about creators being "lazy" and "lame", though.  While what they create may not be perfect, they might be able to come damn close, but it would require more work than I think most reasonable creators would be willing to put in for someone that calls them names ;) Like I said, rethink your approach to people, you might just find what you're looking for. If you can't, then being in sl and using content these same people you insult, is probably not the best choice. 

 

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2Tari Landar

oooh please not "you have to be a hen to tell egg stinks" logic again. I am not a programmer and in my profession I am one of the best and I dont have to be a game programmer to be able say game is a piece of shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. So please!

And yes I know how insulting it is - I saw many very lame and terrible games, which were developed during hours, days, months, may be even years - so what? Eat sh*** because it took good amount of work? But what if they made something terrible, what if they were unprofessionals? Still say only good? I don't think so.

And concerning how bad it is - I know thing or two about programming - not scripting, but real programming in c++. And I know: when there is no way to know which way looks av or most important  no way to force it turn some direction - there is no way to align animations. That simple. If you don't believe me, ask any scripter o programmer.

And concerning people that would like to create - they will never do it. Not because my "rant", but because it is impossible.  Yes, I admitted and repeat I was wrong when I thought  third party developers were lazy - I am sure they would be eager to properly align animations and get rid those terrible poseballs ( at least - some of them), but LL gave them no mean. 

And one last thing about my approach - about creators and they wishes and such - those are not some free mod makers, they earn money! Simple! Low polly terrible female mesh body worths like full DLC in AAA game (more than 10 usd), or full indie game! So if they want to make money they will try they best and then may be people will be ready to pay their hard earned money to them. This is a commerce, not some free mods. And when you buy thing you have full rigth to review it's quality. As simple as that.

Edited by KittyCharming

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2 hours ago, KittyCharming said:

And I know: when there is no way to know which way looks av or most important  no way to force it turn some direction - there is no way to align animations. That simple. If you don't believe me, ask any scripter o programmer.

There is no way to force rotation in a regular vanilla rp viewer, RLV/RLVa DOES have the ability to rotate an avatar using RLV commands.

I did point this out to you earlier, that to 'align' a domme and a sub either you'd have to seize control of the dommes viewer via an rlv relay, or rez furniture or use a hud that rezzed poseballs.

Your dismissive response was frankly rude.

You keep referring to 'Slave Collars', and talk about RP'ing bdsm... This all sugests to me that you in fact are almost 100% vanilla, and thus, don't use RLV, and this explains why your 'opencollar' couples animations leave you hugging a couple of meters away, because you haven't enabled the system that would have moved you into hug range or rotated you to face in approximately the right direction.

You say we can continue to buy 'sh***y slave collars', funny, when I need an opencollar scripted item, I'm nore likely to BUILD one than buy one, which is why I know how the damn things work, and why I told you that your OC collars poses are only as good as YOU choose to make them by customisation.

And now you conclude that because SL won't let you "destroy tanks with a pocket knife" so to speak, that SL is 'broken old crap, no good for anything but chatting not 'RPing BDSM'...

You're a "Roleplayer", chatting was all you ever did..



 

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3 hours ago, KittyCharming said:

2Tari Landar

oooh please not "you have to be a hen to tell egg stinks" logic again. I am not a programmer and in my profession I am one of the best and I dont have to be a game programmer to be able say game is a piece of shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. So please!

And yes I know how insulting it is - I saw many very lame and terrible games, which were developed during hours, days, months, may be even years - so what? Eat sh*** because it took good amount of work? But what if they made something terrible, what if they were unprofessionals? Still say only good? I don't think so.

And concerning how bad it is - I know thing or two about programming - not scripting, but real programming in c++. And I know: when there is no way to know which way looks av or most important  no way to force it turn some direction - there is no way to align animations. That simple. If you don't believe me, ask any scripter o programmer.

And concerning people that would like to create - they will never do it. Not because my "rant", but because it is impossible.  Yes, I admitted and repeat I was wrong when I thought  third party developers were lazy - I am sure they would be eager to properly align animations and get rid those terrible poseballs ( at least - some of them), but LL gave them no mean. 

And one last thing about my approach - about creators and they wishes and such - those are not some free mod makers, they earn money! Simple! Low polly terrible female mesh body worths like full DLC in AAA game (more than 10 usd), or full indie game! So if they want to make money they will try they best and then may be people will be ready to pay their hard earned money to them. This is a commerce, not some free mods. And when you buy thing you have full rigth to review it's quality. As simple as that.

I AM a programmer, I AM a game developer, I DO develop, create and work on games, applications, programs, etc..I work in several different programming languages, different platforms, different environments, on a very wide variety of different kinds of projects. I don't need to ask others, because I actually know what is and is not possible. I also work closely with several people who develop and create scripts both for other creators as well as general use, in sl. Though I will admit that my knowledge of lsl(the language scripts in sl utilize) is a lot more limited than my knowledge of other programming languages and how they function(both with one another, as well as stand alone). I not only have knowledge, I actually have degrees in this area, and am still pursuing even more of them. So, please don't play the "I'm smarter than you" card with me...you're not, not on this anyway, I can guarantee it.  You don't even understand how lsl works, much less how to work with it, if that alone didn't differentiate our capabilities and knowledge, the way you treat how programming languages work versus how you believe they should work, absolutely does. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps based on wanting to believe that you're not really this ignorant or arrogant, but trying to tell me that I have no clue what programming is, or how it works, while tooting your own horn about your knowledge, sent that flying right out of the window. The bottom line is you DON'T actually know how it works, or how it could, let alone why it wouldn't...and therefore feel justified in judging others; capabilities based on your own misconceptions of how things function. I tried to explain that in much nicer terms, but it's very clear that you need a direct approach. 

One thing that is quite obvious here is that you're basing your opinion on someone that PLAYS games, and participates in 3Dchat rooms, but has absolutely no idea whatsoever about how these things work from the back end, you seem to barely grasp how they work on the front end. There is a huge difference between playing or participating in certain things as a USER, and actually being the one behind the scenes as a developer or programmer.  There are people that can absolutely get *as close as possible within the confines of lsl* to what you want.  The problem isn't that they aren't able to, the problem is that some people, like yourself, can't appreciate the sky for the clouds. If something is so absolutely horrid to you, why on earth would you participate in it in the first place? "Yes these shoes are too small, they're ugly, I don't like them...but let me wear them anyway and complain about how they're made".  You're right, this isn't an indie game, it's money, and time is just as valuable to creators as money, because time IS money. Why would someone spend time creating something for you, if you can't appreciate the work that goes into it? It's really simple. Stop comparing sl to games which have rather static graphics-regardless of how good they are-do not involve user creation and, frankly, are so vastly different from how sl functions I can't understand how ANYONE could compare them. I don't think you know how those games work either. What you see, and how it gets there, is something that you'll never understand, until you're on the back end. You see what you think is a great engine, good animations, nice avatars or characters...and then you try and compare that with sl, which in whole is so widely different, there can be no comparison. 

This is one of those topics I should shut up on.

Bottom line, if you want creators to make you something, don't treat them like your sub on the floor deserving of your boot in their back...and they'll make it for you. Keep treading all over creators like they are nothing, and you'll quickly find out just how very little you're deserving of. You're not a mistress over creators in sl. You may have found someone willing to bend at your bidding and be your sub...but creators aren't that. Treat them with some respect, and you'll get it in spades in return. 

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OK, I am finished with this topic. It is obvious no  good collar system exists - due to sl limitations or whatever. I am not going to continue this wain talk. Thanks everybody and bye.

 

2Klytyna

So according you everybody must be programmers, must mess with some damn things, apply scripts etc. - and pay for collar additionally. Great logic. And why in the world I have to be in rlv mode? I am a domme not some sub! Being in rlv mode is great disadvantage and I will never allow it. Thanks. 

I better be a roleplayer, than use crappy and terrible animations. You probably feel so good when your sub hugs air instead of you. Pathetic.

 

2Tari Landar

First of all I told you myself I am not a programmer. Yes may be I don't understand how things work and you may have degrees in those field etc. etc.  - but what I look at are not your diplomas and your  bragging, but at end results. And results show that not a developer managed to make work animations without poseballs. As simple as that. You want to tell they never tried, or they don't want do it and earn money, or they are lazy? Fact is - there no such things exist. And fact is more important than thousands of bragging words. Sorry.

And about how games work and such - I don't need to know. I am an end user, I pay my hard earned money and I don't care how they work - I care when they DON'T work. and inability to align animations is one of such cases.

And one more please - if creators do something they are paid for it and they get money from me or other customers - so I DON'T OWE THEM IN ANY WAY! I am not going to beg anybody or ask - if they make something good and I like it, I will pay, or not - if I don't like it. As simple as that. Again - those are not some free mod makers.

Edited by KittyCharming

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20 minutes ago, KittyCharming said:

OK, I am finished with this topic. It is obvious no  good collar system exists - due to sl limitations of whatever. I am not going to continue this wain talk. Thanks everybody and bye.

perhaps a thought for you... if you ever change your displayname or create a new account... skip the "charming" ... ( yes i know i'm neither, but i don't use it )

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6 hours ago, KittyCharming said:

Klytyna

So according you everybody must be programmers, must mess with some damn things, apply scripts etc. - and pay for collar additionally. Great logic. And why in the world I have to be in rlv mode? I am a domme not some sub! Being in rlv mode is great disadvantage and I will never allow it. Thanks.

I better be a roleplayer, than use crappy and terrible animations. You probably feel so good when your sub hugs air instead of you. Pathetic.

Having rlva enabled in your viewer doesn't make you a sub, anymore than turning it off makes you domme.

In addition, the comments about RP, 'slave collars' and your general attitude tell me that you are not any kind of domme, just somebody with entitlement issues, who 'Roleplays' being a Domme without actually knowing a damn thing about the BDSM Scene, either SL or RL

I've used RLVa for more than 5 years, and just about every reputably made rlv item in SL that there is, at one time or another, and I've never had the level or problems you describe.

For somebody who claims to be a "c++ programmer", claiming that dropping a couple of animations into a collar and editing a notecard is too complicated for you, seems...

Oddly out of 'character', oh wait! Are you 'Roleplaying' being a c++ programmer as well as 'roleplaying' being a domme?.

Oh and for the record... The ONE and ONLY place pick in your profile, is NOT a 'BDSM' site, it's an "exploit ignorant 1 day old noobs as cashcows" site, where most of the 'workers' realise their being used and escape within about 14 days (yes I've met and spoken with ex cashcows).


 



 

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7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

perhaps a thought for you... if you ever change your displayname or create a new account... skip the "charming" ... ( yes i know i'm neither, but i don't use it )

Wait, you're not charming? When did this happen?

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2Klytyna

As it  seems some people can not take no for an answer. Let me tell you something.

First, before teaching anybody, may be you have to learn and understand most basic things? Enabling rlv in viewer does not change anything and will not affect positioning and turning avatars in any way, unless you wear a relay! And if you wear a relay you are vulnerable to other people or traps that may use it. May be you learn basic things before you play a teacher?

About C++ programming - yes I know a thing or two about that language, but I never said I am a programmer. If you ever opened your eyes and read my messages you would clearly saw me saying I am not a programmer and I am an end user. So take your fantasies into... another place. And concerning dropping animations and notecards and such sh*** - if I pay for an item I expect it to have all functionality I need. I pay my hard earned money for that! And I am not going to mess with it, whatever it is -- drop animations, notecards or a-bombs.  As simple as that! Of course for you, it is impossible to understand.

Concerning my pick - not like many other persons that claim to be dommes and just call themselves "Mistresses" - I've spend months to be promoted to my title and it is not just words but a result of hard work. And may be you shut up your dirty mouth before you speak about things you don't understand? We have more than 200 sub girls and 40+ dominants and I don't care about your opinion. Our Sim exists more than 10 years - longer than you can imagine. This is a good example of your behavior, you don't understand anything (like with rlv) but you are ready to tell ***** about things you never heard of. This shows your level of "competence" and your goals - you are ready to use any dirty trick to defame opponent.

This is lats time I answered you - I am not going to feed fat troll anymore.

Bye.

Edited by KittyCharming

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2 hours ago, KittyCharming said:

2Klytyna

As it  seems some people can not take no for an answer. Let me tell you something.

First, before teaching anybody, may be you have to learn and understand most basic things? Enabling rlv in viewer does not change anything and will not affect positioning and turning avatars in any way, unless you wear a relay! And if you wear a relay you are vulnerable to other people or traps that may use it. May be you learn basic things before you play a teacher?

About C++ programming - yes I know a thing or two about that language, but I never said I am a programmer. If you ever opened your eyes and read my messages you would clearly saw me saying I am not a programmer and I am an end user. So take your fantasies into... another place. And concerning dropping animations and notecards and such sh*** - if I pay for an item I expect it to have all functionality I need. I pay my hard earned money for that! And I am not going to mess with it, whatever it is -- drop animations, notecards or a-bombs.  As simple as that! Of course for you, it is impossible to understand.

Concerning my pick - not like many other persons that claim to be dommes and just call themselves "Mistresses" - I've spend months to be promoted to my title and it is not just words but a result of hard work. And may be you shut up your dirty mouth before you speak about things you don't understand? We have more than 200 sub girls and 40+ dominants and I don't care about your opinion. Our Sim exists more than 10 years - longer than you can imagine. This is a good example of your behavior, you don't understand anything (like with rlv) but you are ready to tell ***** about things you never heard of. This shows your level of "competence" and your goals - you are ready to use any dirty trick to defame opponent.

This is lats time I answered you - I am not going to feed fat troll anymore.

Bye.

I hope the sim you represent understands how BAD for their reputation posts like this truly are. 

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6 minutes ago, KittyCharming said:

As I said, I am not going to answer trolls. They can go an fu... enjoy themselves.

oh next to bad creators, a failing LL, and bad stuff we'r all trolls... how charming ... good lord ....you should see some professionals with all that anger in your attitude.

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Person comes and asks simple question - please tell me about alternative to OC if such exists. Some people try to prove her OC is good. Person says - no I hate OC, I dont need it, please tell me only alternatives (if one exists) - some people continue talk with perseverance about OC and it's use. They even talk about rlv and things they do not have idea about.

Question: who is troll?

Edited by KittyCharming

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5 minutes ago, KittyCharming said:

Person comes and asks simple question - please tell me about alternative to OC if such exists. Some people try to prove her OC is good. Person says - no I hate OC, I dont need it, please tell me only alternatives (if one exists) - some people continue talk with perseverance about OC and it's use. They even talk about rlv and things they do not have idea about.

Question: who is troll?

I believe slamming a free open source system such as OC which is open source in order for you to be able to make changes to it to suit yourself is troll behaviour.  The people there created and update a system for FREE.  You also took issue with almost every person who replied because they didn't give you the advice you wanted.  All the advice was given freely and was all relevant to helping you with your issue.

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2Cindy Evanier

So if anybody dare to criticize any free stuff, it automatically makes them trolls. Great logic. Something that starts from sh... is "free" too, so what?

And about my issues:  I asked one simple question, no more.  I never asked how to make OC great, add terrible animation to it and such and such... so please. When persons continuously speak about thing I've said several times - I don't need and not concerns this topic, I can call them one word - trolls. 

I don't care about OC lover trolls! I hate the thing and never asked advices about it! I repeated several times, asked to stop talking about OC - but trolls never stop!

Edited by KittyCharming

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9 hours ago, KittyCharming said:

2Cindy Evanier

So if anybody dare to criticize any free stuff, it automatically makes them trolls. Great logic. Something that starts from sh... is "free" too, so what?

And about my issues:  I asked one simple question, no more.  I never asked how to make OC great, add terrible animation to it and such and such... so please. When persons continuously speak about thing I've said several times - I don't need and not concerns this topic, I can call them one word - trolls. 

I don't care about OC lover trolls! I hate the thing and never asked advices about it! I repeated several times, asked to stop talking about OC - but trolls never stop!

You have been nothing but absolutely rude since your second post. You have insulted every single person that did reply to you. You have no idea how anything in sl works, and when it is pointed out to you, you choose to insult the person pointing it out. The level of arrogance you display is not only laughable at times, but also the worst kind of advertising for "your" sim that it could possibly get....and you're calling everyone else a troll. You chose to insult me by saying I was bragging, when I was merely replying to your own brag about your own knowledge-which is way off base. Most of the people replying to you have been in sl a heck of a lot longer than you have, and they DO very much understand more than you do. It's perfectly okay to admit you don't know everything-no one does, lol. It's also perfectly okay to learn new things, we all do it everyday. We can't really do it when we meet every single person with such anger and attitude, though. You're only going to get the same kind of responses you give, right back. 

Maybe if you had approached things differently, or chosen a better way to respond to people, you would have been met in kind. As I stated before, which you either ignored or simply didn't want to see, there ARE creators that can come as close to what you want as possible in sl-in fact, one of them is working on it right now. The fact that every single post anyone has made has been met with such anger and vitriol in your own posts, is the precise reason none of the creators willing to work on this project will do so *for you*. It's entirely likely they'll do it for everyone else. But no one is going to be willing to make such a product for someone with such hatred and anger towards others that they would insult all creators the way you have. Your "hard earned money" isn't worth their time, or putting up with people with such attitudes, regardless of how much you're willing to pay. This is what you don't seem to get. While in some cases, money can buy people whatever they want, and some people don't particularly care what kind of person that money comes from...that's not the case here. You need to learn to appreciate what exists, and what is possible, before anyone is going to be willing to help you. I know you don't OWE creators anything. But, you're forgetting that they don't OWE you anything either.

You don't get to dictate what people can and cannot post on these forums, none of us do. Maybe others will learn from the advice people gave you about OC, even if it's not something *you* want, others may, so it will he helpful for them. That's another great thing about forums, we can learn from things without even necessarily realizing we wanted to. 

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2Tari Landar 

And you tell I am rude with every person. When I ask about alternative to OC and some persons answer how wonderful  OC is and such bull***** - according to you I either have to thank them for advices I never asked, or I will be rude with them! Great! I asked about OC alternatives - that simple. Not their opinion about OC. As an end user I don't care how things works in sl - understood? And I do not care how long some people were in sl. If they can not answer simple question or shut up when they have nothing to say.

When person asks about good alternatives of something, if there are no good alternatives or you never heard about them - you just shut up and never post anything. That simple! Read entire topic - not a single person ever posted a name of any alternative collar - most posts are about how wonderful OC is! And when I ask people to not spam topic with offtopic sh*** - It makes me rude.  Elemental courtesy requires to not spam topics, especially when topic starter asks about it, but you and other trolls never stop bragging and telling bull*****s about things that have nothing in common with topic. I repeat, not a single alternative collar system was named! So are you seasoned or noobs - you are trolls! I never asked your opinion about OC and never asked your advices about adding animations and other sh*** to it. 

And one of such good example how other people "better understand" things in sl is another troll that was teaching me how to use rlv, not even understanding how system works and what does. I think you understand programming as "well" as that person "understands" rlv. So yes - your words are bragging for me.  

And concerning creators and that bull***** about their time - if you do not understand that they are doing it for money - sorry, but it is not my problem, seek good physician. And worths it their time or not - If it didn't worth they would not do it. As simple as that! Basic, terribly looking low poly mesh body is sold for more that 10 uds - more, than full DLCs for AAA games and it still does not worth their time? Then let them do something else - may be choose profession that suits them better. Prices in sl compared to any game I've ever seen are outrage!  So please don't tell me tales about sl developers - how they care about who buys their things and such bull*****. I am "sure" they will never sell things to bad people, only to good ones. Do you know other fairy tales? And after this you claim you are a programmer, know sl better than anybody and such.... No comments.

And finally - Yes, people can write whatever they want in open forums, but spamming topic with off-topic messages is not only impolite, but also punishable in many cases.  If you want to give somebody some advices you may open own topic about OC and give those tips, but no - you come to topic opened by another person and give her advices she never asked. And when she asks to stop posting sh** - you call her rude.

And I call people like you trolls.. And you are a troll.

Bye Troll.

P.S. And one more thing, concerning "my" sim - we do not tolerate trolls there as well as we do not tolerate jerks and ban them on sight.

Edited by KittyCharming

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14 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I hope the sim you represent understands how BAD for their reputation posts like this truly are.

I doubt they care, their rep in the SL BDSM community is already pretty damn low, and their two principle markets, the noob girls they trick into 'indentured slavery', and the noob guys to pay the club to watch noob girls in fancy stripper avis, are both groups who won't be around the place long enough for it's rep to matter.

The vast number of classified adds, and a place in the destination guide ensure that the noobs they depend on and feed on, will always pour in, regardless of how bad it's rep is with people who've been in SL long enough to find out.

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1 hour ago, KittyCharming said:

I asked about OC alternatives - thats simple

And you were told... 

1. Rez a couples furniture item

2. Use a hud that rezzes poseballs

3a. Opencollar - Currently version 6.5.5

3b. OpenNC - Side branch of opencollar 3.9x

3c. DBCollar - Side branch of opencollar 3.6

That's about it.

You weren't happy with the answer, and demanded a different answer, but there isn't one, deal with it

1 hour ago, KittyCharming said:

And one of such good example how other people "well understand" things in sl is another troll that was teaching me how to use rlv, not even understanding how system works and what does

In point of fact, I pointed out to YOU that to get better alignment you'd need to have the other party wearing a relay and using rlv in my earlier replies in this thread.

As for being 'vunerable' when using a relay, there's this thing called 'ask mode' on most reputable relays, I understand you might not use those on the sim you represent...

Do I understand RLV... I'm one of the people that MAKES rlv traps, the ones you are so worried about falling prey to if you enable rlv and wear a relay.
 

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I am not feeding trolls anymore. As I said they can go and fu... enjoy themselves.  

And less I care about opinion of self proclaimed dominants - for them it is enough to call themselves  "Mistress" and find some tag and that pathetic folk think they are real dominants and cream of cream of  BDSM community. Let them enjoy themselves and call themselves even "Empresses of universe" or whatever I do not care.  Their pathetic places with at most 3500 visitors are well respected in BDSM community, while a place with 38 000 visitors is  "bad one". I understand their jealousy and despair - they built a place and may need close it in soon, while some other place exists and prospers more than 10 years. Pathetic.

Edited by KittyCharming

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Engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent loses its appeal after a while.

Good luck in your sl ventures. 

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I didn't want to reply again because it's completely pointless but I will.

You asked for alternatives that would do what you wanted. (aligning poses)   You were told there weren't any alternatives really but given

1.  reasons why it's difficult to align the poses and

2.  ways to help make them align within those limitations.  

You spat your dummy out and called us trolls and other accusations.  You say you aren't replying anymore but I am sure you will want the last word

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On 9/7/2017 at 9:55 PM, KittyCharming said:

I am not feeding trolls anymore. As I said they can go and fu... enjoy themselves.  

And less I care about opinion of self proclaimed dominants - for them it is enough to call themselves  "Mistress" and find some tag and that pathetic folk think they are real dominants and cream of cream of  BDSM community. Let them enjoy themselves and call themselves even "Empresses of universe" or whatever I do not care.  Their pathetic places with at most 3500 visitors are well respected in BDSM community, while a place with 38 000 visitors is  "bad one". I understand their jealousy and despair - they built a place and may need close it in soon, while some other place exists and prospers more than 10 years. Pathetic.

Add "traffic calculations" to the list of things she doesn't understand.

  • Haha 2

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