Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
greek Wingtips

Mesh Mistake by LL

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Am not anti mesh, why would I ask for LL to make a standard mesh body, if you read my rants, you see I talking about LL should have made a standard one and creators could make skins, ect ect for it, so newbies or anyone could just have a mesh body without all this stupid confusion and if people want to choose a completely new mesh from as creator as we have now then so be it.

Some said" well they can have the standard Avatar"  No I say standard mesh avatar as a choice.

No.

And here are my arguments :

1. If someone is unable to open google.com and type "second life TMP" in it because omg it takes too long to read all this, a free fitmesh avatar is never gonna help either.

2. Customer support : LL would be overwhelmed by useless and time-eating tickets that the HUD doesn't work, how do I alpha this? why this applier doesn't work? etc etc... And no way I want LL to spend/waste their time on this, there are a whole lot of more important issues for us all to be treated by LL.

3. To be an informed consumer is a duty for all, even in rl.

4. All the popular meshbodies are, actually, very starter-friendly : wear alpha, add meshbody, add HUD, click and learn and have fun. Even the icons on these HUD are usually user-friendly.

 

9 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Of course it doesn't. Which would have been obvious had one typed "TMP Second Life" into Google and spent ten minutes reading.

Just when I was typing my reply. ;)

 

7 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

The amount of information currently required to be an adequately informed consumer is really quite daunting.

No. You need to learn only two things : how to use your meshbody HUD and how to use the texture layers.

 

9 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

There's a ton of jargon to be learned, along with concepts like stuff that was made before a certain divergence won't necessarily be labeled with certain jargon because it didn't matter when it was made.

Thank goodness the real blogs are naming correctly stuff and things or they would prove you right.

 

12 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

And now you're faced with a mountain of information

No. I'm in some customer support groups and what I read from is the exact opposite. All of them complain that there is not enough information, never that there are too many informations.

 

17 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I think the expectations of many here are asking a bit much of people who are just starting or returning.

And vice versa, to expect LL to release a free fitmesh avatar is definitely asking a bit too much.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

The amount of information currently required to be an adequately informed consumer is really quite daunting. There's a ton of jargon to be learned, along with concepts like stuff that was made before a certain divergence won't necessarily be labeled with certain jargon because it didn't matter when it was made.

[ ... ]

How inclined might you be to proceed along the steep learning curve for something that's supposed to be fun and entertaining?

That's why some of us (*raises hand*) have been spending a lot of time trying to put together tutorials that will help newbies (in my case, specifically newbie guys) to come to grips with all that jargon and technical stuff. I've been here ten years, seen it all come and go, and even I'm having trouble organising my thoughts on all of the different options into a cohesive and easy-to-understand series of tutorial posts. I've been working on them for weeks now, and I'm still not happy that they're exactly what they need to be, which is why they've not yet seen the light of day.

So yes, I get it, I'm not expecting newbies to blunder aimlessly around without a single guiding hand to help them. But likewise, if one is really interested in pursuing a particular interest - even if it's just for entertainment or a hobby - putting in a little bit of time and effort to read and research will always pay better dividends in the long run. If I take up a new, fun hobby in real life I want to know all about it, so I read around the subject and immerse myself in everything I can find about it. I recognise that not everyone is like me (thank god! xD) but I'm a firm believer in giving something my all, and every time I've done that I've always got so much more out of whatever I'm doing.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have not felt like learning how to put together a mesh body since my avi is just a worker bee that never leaves my store. So I just don't buy one. If I wanted one I would put in the effort to learn how. Learning how to do things is part of SL. Those who don't take responsibility for learning before buying are in for some rough times.

That said, I know exactly which brand I would avoid and why, and which is the most popular, just from casual reading.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I have not felt like learning how to put together a mesh body since my avi is just a worker bee that never leaves my store. So I just don't buy one. If I wanted one I would put in the effort to learn how. Learning how to do things is part of SL. Those who don't take responsibility for learning before buying are in for some rough times.

That said, I know exactly which brand I would avoid and why, and which is the most popular, just from casual reading.

I think everyone gone of the tracks, it started with LL should have made a Mesh Body, to slowly replace the standard Avatar or have them along side each other,  nothing more and nothing less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New things are coming in SL to address this very thing. Almost every week, on Thursdays, there is a content creation meeting that LL holds. Vir Linden is the lead for the group meeting. There is a beta viewer coming soon, that will allow avatar creators to utilize the texture baking system on their avatars. See, the default avatar has layers, like an onion, not like a parfait. On the default, we can have tattoo layers and underwear layers and all. Soon, we'll be able to do this with mesh avatars. So, appliers will no longer be needed. Of course, we don't have to do things exactly like the default, because this new baking system will be much more flexible.

Edited by Medhue Simoni
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Medhue Simoni said:

New things are coming in SL to address this very thing. Almost every week, on Thursdays, there is a content creation meeting that LL holds. Vir Linden is the lead for the group meeting. There is a beta viewer coming soon, that will allow avatar creators to utilize the texture baking system on their avatars. See, the default avatar has layers, like an onion, not like a parfait. On the default, we can have tattoo layers and underwear layers and all. Soon, we'll be able to do this with mesh avatars. So, appliers will no longer be needed. Of course, we don't have to do things exactly like the default, because this new baking system will be much more flexible.

I hope they're going to take a lot of time before, because there are enough issues with just 3 layers and blending enabled/disabled (the workaround with materials is surprising but I'm not sure it tells much more about what's the problem, does it?).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

I hope they're going to take a lot of time before, because there are enough issues with just 3 layers and blending enabled/disabled (the workaround with materials is surprising but I'm not sure it tells much more about what's the problem, does it?).

I'm not completely sure what you are asking. Materials will not be included in the new texture baking system. The creator can add materials separately. Or, you might need appliers for materials.

Edited by Medhue Simoni

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

No. You need to learn only two things : how to use your meshbody HUD and how to use the texture layers.

Scratches head. I would have thought things like figuring out which body to invest in, and related things like TMP isn't supported, Bento isn't a brand, Omega is a brand (sort of) but isn't a body, that it's perfectly fine to not wear a mesh body, which ones include feet, which don't, what alpha cuts and alpha layers are, and a whole host of other stuff, were also things new users need to learn, and some of them are really important before they buy. But if you're really certain none of that is needed....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Are you guys arguing in favour of keeping the out-dated default avatar for the sake of making the SL learning curve harder for new people? Cause that's what it looks like to me.

Improve the default avatar. Bring it more into line with today's screen resolutions and expectations. Give it Bento. Everyone benefits. And those who want to can still buy into a proprietary mesh body. It's not like that's going to go away. But maybe new users will feel less pressure to make those sorts of choices while they're still learning how to get around.

I'm not arguing against improvements. I am arguing against LL creating basically the very same thing mesh body creators are creating, because it lessens *their* market.  Why would anyone new even seek out other mesh bodies created by actual creators, if LL did all the basic work and offered a product on par with current offerings? The default av, the non-mesh one, that one has inspired many to choose to opt for mesh bodies..and that I get, because to many people the default av(non-mesh) was/is hideous at least in some manner. The simple fact that a lot of folks despised it, helps to feed the sl economy, promote creation, etc..There is a reason that LL provides the bare minimum, and that is to *encourage an actual market in sl. (ok there are probably other reasons too, but this is the one that matters the most). Hell I didn't even have a mesh av until earlier this year, and changing to it wasn't even my idea, lol. 

That said, there are plenty of starter avs that are far, far better than they have ever been. Yes, there could be some improvements, but I know lots of folks that are perfectly content with non-mesh avs(or the old "default", or "classic", or whatever name people want to attach to it today), and those that use the current(and previous generation of) starter mesh avs.

The avatar learning curve isn't really that steep, although one's mileage may vary, it is the overall sl learning curve that can be problematic for more people. No one is forced to make any choice, nor is there pressure to do so, unless people put it on themselves. The starter avs we have now are a massive improvement on most others we've ever had. Yes, they could be improved upon a little more, if LL so chose, but that doesn't mean I think it should be required, nor do I think LL would be dropping the ball in not doing so. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People would buy proprietary mesh bodies because they liked them. How big does their share of the market need to be?

Do you truly think that no improvements should be made to the default avatar because it might take a cut of a few people's profits?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I would have thought things like figuring out which body to invest in,

This is a personal decision based on personal preferences, nothing that a "learning curve" can teach to anyone. Why someone wants a meshbody?

I never liked the poly-ugliness of the default avie, the 1st purchase I rushed after was prim shoes to hide those absurd things they dared even named "feet". My 1st meshbody was Tonic Curvy and I really liked but then the creator made a majority-choice that ruined 99% of my wardrobe so I moved to a different meshbody (Belleza Venus). Always based on my preferences that no learning curve can teach.

If you're really that curious to understand the customers' choice then check where go their preferences. Only SL Physique is close enough to the default LL avatar and guess what? It's not the meshbody that most customers prefer. Lara, Hourglass, Isis, Freya, all of them are stepping out of the default avatar and all of them are favored by customers and creators. Hint, hint.

 

21 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

TMP isn't supported

by who, for what? There are creators doing TMP fitmesh clothings. Here again it depends on someone's preferences and why she wants a meshbody, nothing that a learning curve can teach.

 

23 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Bento isn't a brand

Bento is an add-on to the skeleton for the mesh creators. Are you a creator? If not then you do not need to learn more that you'll need a HUD to use Bento (having Bento hands is not enough, fingers are not going to move on their own, they need to be animated with a HUD).

 

29 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Omega is a brand (sort of) but isn't a body

Yes. Omega does sell products called kits or relays and other things too. But to learn how to use the texture appliers (point 2) will soon or late lead you to Omega.

 

33 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

that it's perfectly fine to not wear a mesh body

Yes. Just try the latest starter avies and you'll see that it can be perfectly fine.

 

33 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

which ones include feet, which don't

That's about to compare product features. Everyone is free to compare, check or not. But this or that meshbody having or not feet included in the pack is not going to teach you how to have fun on SL or not.

I chose Belleza Venus precisely because there are hands and feet included and I didn't wanted SLink feet and hands.

 

36 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

what alpha cuts and alpha layers are

It's in the meshbody HUD (point 1).

 

Don't get personal but my point here is to show that it's way too easy to make something overly complicated when it is not.

1. Get demos from the meshbodies you're interested in and try them.

2. Check your priorities. Why do you want a meshbody for? What are you expectations?

There's no prerequisite learnings about these two points, it's only about you and what you see on your screen and if it fits with what you want.

3. Learn how to use the meshbody HUD (this is where you're going to find those alpha cuts and other stuff like blend on/off, neck fix, tint, etc... but it's nonetheless all wrapped in 1 learning curve : the HUD). You don't need to know the tech details about it (I do not and won't be able to teach how to script them). You just need to learn that to click on this icon does this, to click on that icon does that and it's named like this and like that. On the other hand, asking to learn and know everything about this and that does confirm what I said precisely. I never heard customers complaining about an excess of informations but rather about the lack of it.

4. Learn how to use the texture layers which is way easier than the default LL avatar. For reminder, the default LL can support 10 textures per layer with 9 layers for a total of 90 textures to manage. Meshbodies have only 1 texture per layer and 3 layers for a total of.... 3 textures max to manage. 90 vs 3 : tell me what is really easier to learn?

 

51 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

But if you're really certain none of that is needed....

Right and I would say that there are many comparable things in rl. Just one example : you don't need to know how to build a car to drive it. Same with meshbodies, you really don't need to know all the tech details to use it.

1. Wear alpha.

2. Add meshbody.

3. Add meshbody HUD.

4... nope, there's no 4. That's all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tari said:

I'm not arguing against improvements. I am arguing against LL creating basically the very same thing mesh body creators are creating, because it lessens *their* market.

 

We heard that argument about Linden Homes, housing market was not crashed. A better starter avatar would not hurt mesh avatar sales at all, IMHO, I for one will not buy one one way or the other. Its just to much money for “me”, and its to complicated for “me”, yes I’ve done demos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Wow, that's a lot of words to miss my point. Again. Congratulations Morgan.

Right, don't expect me to confirm your point when it's obviously wrong.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

People would buy proprietary mesh bodies because they liked them. How big does their share of the market need to be?

Do you truly think that no improvements should be made to the default avatar because it might take a cut of a few people's profits?

No, I believe LL remaining out of the creation market, as a whole-not just on av creation, is a good thing. I think they have far more things they should focus their energy on. We know multi-tasking isn't their strongest capability. 

I don't have a horse in the av creation market, and I never will. But yes, I do think that LL creating a product that is on par with current market offerings *will take away a portion of that market, and I don't find that fair. Have you never read any of the discussions we've had here, on all versions of these forums, regarding LL and their invasion of an existing market in sl?  I know a lot of people haven't, so I wouldn't be surprised to find more who haven't. I'm not just talking about av creation, but creation as a whole. LL has done a, sort of, okay job at doing just that and letting the market be what it will, and I think they should stay in that pattern. People were pissed when Linden homes came to be too, for the very same reason, they didn't want LL in the "land business". Some still are..though LL's lax attitude towards those has helped cut down on that significantly over the years. 

Again I will say the starter avs we have now, are a major improvement on what we used to have, even the last generation starter avs, which aren't currently offered to new residents(though still available, they aren't the ones offered at initial signup) which were hideous and terribly problematic, have been improved upon. Just how much involvement do you want from LL?

I prefer they stick to their wheelhouse. I saw, and participated in, all the discussions about the hideous mesh starter avs which actually WERE confusing, even to oldbies, and practically useless in most ways. So, yeah, I would like LL to avoid that fiasco, and allow the market and those that can create these things..to do so. It's not just a matter of cutting into profit, but a matter of LL not having the capability, nor should they have the desire to, focus on such things. There's a huge difference between offering something basic(which they currently do) and offering something more than basic(which the creators do). The bare minimum is what we should get as new users, and if we want to improve upon that, we can, and if we choose not to, we can do that too. 

This whole thing started because one person didn't do a little bit of reading(no it would not take hours, but mere minutes) and now has buyer's remorse, not an actual difficulty with the current offerings, but rather the inability to put thought into making an "expensive"(in that person's opinion..mine as well, and probably others' as well too) purchase without understanding WHAT was being bought...I'm keeping that in perspective when I reply ;) 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

If LL made a Generic Body then Designers could have work on that. and saved lots of headaches for members.

When "fitted mesh" was introduced, which made the modern mesh avatar possible, Linden Lab was running a project where creators would be invited to make clothing for the mesh starter avatars that were introduced at the time. That was right when Ebbe Linden started and I think the mesh avatars were rushed out and nothing came from the project. In any event, the mesh avatars had bad weighting, little compatibility with existing mesh clothing and used a non-SL-standard UV map (i.e. no legacy skin capability.) Realistically, someone else would have developed something much better soon after and the market would be basically the same as it is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

ill. But yes, I do think that LL creating a product that is on par with current market offerings *will take away a portion of that market, and I don't find that fair. Have you never read any of the discussions we've had here, on all versions of these forums, regarding LL and their invasion of an existing market in sl?

I have participated in those discussions. Second life is billed as "your world your imagination". It is a user created world. Not a LL created world. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I've seen several people write articulate arguments for an improved default avatar. It makes so much sense to do so these days. IMO the strongest argument is how complicated it is for someone new and how they face a big - and a lot of lindens - choice about which type of body & clothes they're going to invest in almost immediately. An improved default avatar would encourage more creators to make clothing and shoes for that (try being a noob female avatar without mesh feet), so new players could buy some clothes and wait till they get more of a grasp of SL before deciding whether or not to splurge on a proprietary body.

About the only argument against an improved default avatar is 'breaking existing content'. There has to be a way to code in a choice so people could use the current default avatar if they really need to.

Right now the viewer considers all "avatars" to be Ruth/Ruthboy. To the viewer, a mesh avatar is simply Ruth wearing a very fancy plywood cube. This single avatar is hardwired into the viewer and there is no messaging system to tell the viewer what "kind" of avatar any given avatar is (maleness/femaleness are encoded into the shape file.) To change the default avatar all viewers would need to be re-written to have the new avatar, and for there to be a choice an entirely new type of server message would be required.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...