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greek Wingtips

Mesh Mistake by LL

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The good starter avatars have standard bodies, but mesh clothes. Some use Bento for attachments (such as horses). They use mesh clothing and in general look good. The abysmal mesh-bodied starter avatars are still in the list in the People tab. Those should be avoided at all costs, but I still see some newbies use them.

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7 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

I totally think LL got it wrong when they allowed anyone to make different mesh skins and bodies and not designed a universal  body

I wholehartedly agree. Such an important, if not the most important part of the product, should have been made to some standards, fully modifyable by the company. Leaving such a core part to amateurs (polycounts, LODs, texture res etc. anyone?) was a mistake in my opinon as well.

Edited by arton Rotaru
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1 hour ago, Talligurl said:

SL is not a game, one of the differences between SL and a game is that games are equally simple or complex to everyone, but SL can be very simple or very complex depending on the preferences of the user. My SL is pretty simple, because I don't get, and have no desire to learn the more complex aspects of it. Yet I can still come here and do my thing and interact with the geniouses.

This the silliest thing I ever heard, "its not a game" chess is a game I would not class that as simple.    please keep to the topic.

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7 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

Someone, I know just bought a mesh body consisting of over 10k in total only to find out their are no applier kits ready for personal use of tattoos so one spends 10k only to find it you cannot purchase your own tattoo,  this surely cannot be right, 

This person you know has learned the hard lesson of shopping carefully.

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16 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

The good starter avatars have standard bodies, but mesh clothes. Some use Bento for attachments (such as horses). They use mesh clothing and in general look good. The abysmal mesh-bodied starter avatars are still in the list in the People tab. Those should be avoided at all costs, but I still see some newbies use them.

When I started SL back in 2010, all the starter avatars were terrible. Way to turn anyone away from SL.

Today I tried these new starter avatars and wow, lots of people should learn how to do a good avie from these starters.

Aaaaand... I got a lovely bento horse for free ! Thank you LL. <3

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36 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I'm all for any kind of improvements..

I'm just saying it's not worse than it used to be..

Wasn't including you Ceka. My post followed yours so closely there wasn't even a 'Ceka replied' message. Sorry about any confusion.

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38 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

This the silliest thing I ever heard, "its not a game" chess is a game I would not class that as simple.    please keep to the topic.

I never said games are simple, I said that the complexity or lack of it is the same for all participants. Chess (and all games) has a specific goal that is the same for everyone who participates, so all participants deal with the same rules. 

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I have many complaints about the existing commercial Mesh bodies (and even more against the heads), but even if they were done with better skill and more responsible business practices, and even if a single common implementation had been produced and shared among creators -- and god knows it would have been dead easy to do vastly better than any of the current commercial products -- still, the mesh avatar ensures SL can never again grow its user base.

That's because there are now too many ways to customize avatars, most of which don't actually do anything because they modify some 99% obsolete feature of the classic avatar, but are part of an interface that's crucial to adjusting some other parts of 99% of avatars now and in the future. Think how a newbie reacts to this bewildering array of incompatibility. This can never be a mainstream product again, ever, and there's no way coherence and compatibility will ever be restored. The platform is doomed to irrelevant obscurity because of this.

This started early-on, actually, long before Mesh, as skin makers gradually adopted all-opaque skins. Very few are old enough to remember why the classic avatar even had an alpha channel originally: it wasn't to be able to hide body parts, as it's used today, but to enable the skin-tinting function (and a few other skin tweaks) that most users haven't seen operational for a decade. Similarly, prim hair changed and obsoleted another whole chunk of avatar customization UI, but still viewers must maintain those old mostly inoperable controls.

Again, that "mostly inoperable" makes it worse than if the whole interface could be replaced.

So now there's a test we can watch as Sansar develops its avatars with all their inverse kinematics and mouth-miming flash: Will they slap controls into a UI with which future Sansar avatars will be saddled, or will they simply expose an API for scripters to use in customizing those avatars? An API can survive, but any pre-defined UI will suffer the same fate as the avatar customization UI that has limited SL's future.

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It's just my guess but I feel sure that LL never anticipated users using mesh to create avatar bodies, heads and other body parts. My guess is that they only intended, and expected, mesh to be used for objects.

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Buyers need to do their due diligence and with all of the resources available these days, a little effort can go a long way into making a better informed decision. I am not just talking about the little nuisances we may experience after the fact, but rather those large glaring issues (like the ones you described) that could have been easily avoided had that person done their homework. 

4 hours ago, Monti Messmer said:

Especially starters have a hard time not to only learn how SL works, now they have to dive into technology, google read try ...

Now you need appliers, mesh body, hand, feet clothes that fit THIS avatar, HUDs to make all look even ....

New residents should be doing just that. Getting their feet wet, not diving head first. God forbid they're required to read something or use their brain. Perhaps they'll find sympathy in their safe spaces.

Appliers are no different then skins. The popular mesh mesh bodies include hands and feet, with the exception of SLINK but the cost of their body is reduced to take into account for that (a nice perk for those that already owned their hands and feet previously I might add). Clothing that fits? Ad signs and listings tell you which body the clothing is designed for (simple enough?). The demo packages list the body by name (not simple enough?).  All of the major bodies have great product support out of the box, and that is only further enhanced by Omega.

Edited by Chase01
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The introduction of mesh was gradual, we started with mesh hair, shoes, and feet, mesh breasts and butts, then clothes and standard sizes, mesh bodies arrived and fit mesh followed, mesh heads and now bento. It took a while to get to the complicated state we are in. 

LL introduced several new avatars along the way but they never were as innovative. 3rd party bodies allow users to get features that maybe LL doesnt want to be associated with. LL can simply say that the residents are free to make what they want. It would be nice to have one body with all clothes and accessories made for it but I believe the free market that exists now makes for a more diverse selection.

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1 minute ago, Bree Giffen said:

makes for a more diverse selection

That's true indeed. Everytime I arrive at a crowdy place, I say to myself. Oh look, Miss headless, sideways legs, with holes in their chest, and a floating ***** is here as well again. xD

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2 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

Mesh bodies all work because all they need is a standard avatar to attach them to. Your argument does not stand.

 

Again you're missing the point, all makers have their own appliers ect ect, that is not standard, is it?

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If Linden Labs has some spare development effort I, for one, would prefer them to invest it in making the fundamentals (that I pay for) work.  Like fixing the glitches that happen when you cross a sim boundary since last Wednesday's snafu.  And not spend it making stuff for expletive deleted people who can't be bothered to invest $10 in a mesh body from one of the popular suppliers.  If LL spend my investment on your body, then I am subsidising you, and I don't like that.

Edited by anna2358
pricing error

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6 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Again you're missing the point, all makers have their own appliers ect ect, that is not standard, is it?

No.

It's already been said twice that there is a standard : Omega System, here

 

Your friend chose the most expensive meshbody which is famously known to be compatible with nothing.

10k. Even for only half this price (5k), I checked every possible info on my Belleza bodies. Can I wear standard rigged mesh clothings? Do I need Belleza appliers? Will I find the styles I like to wear for this meshbody? What about its complexity, will I be a lagmonster crashing everyone in a sim? How is it reviewed? What are the known issues with this meshbody? Etc etc...

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4 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

I cannot name the mesh body because it would not be fair but its the most expensive one with just the body starting at 5k when you add all the other bits, head and feet and hands so forth it ends up being 10K

And here we have the main case for "a little bit of research goes a long way". Five minutes on Ye Old Google, reading a couple of blogs, and perusing the comments of the Mesh Body Addicts blog (the go-to-place for info about mesh bodies and heads in SL) for that specific mesh body and head - or even asking around a few friends inworld - would have told your acquaintance everything they needed to know about that particular brand. Never updated, never will be updated, no chance of Bento hands or heads, completely proprietary installer system that doesn't work with Omega or any other applier, the design team has split and the brand's Facebook page hasn't been updated in two years... I could go on.

When you're making that big an investment in your avatar it pays - literally - to do your research first.

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40 minutes ago, Morgan Rosenstar said:

No.

It's already been said twice that there is a standard : Omega System, here

 

Your friend chose the most expensive meshbody which is famously known to be compatible with nothing.

10k. Even for only half this price (5k), I checked every possible info on my Belleza bodies. Can I wear standard rigged mesh clothings? Do I need Belleza appliers? Will I find the styles I like to wear for this meshbody? What about its complexity, will I be a lagmonster crashing everyone in a sim? How is it reviewed? What are the known issues with this meshbody? Etc etc...

Ok simple question Morgan, does this work with the Mesh project, I bet it does not

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36 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

And here we have the main case for "a little bit of research goes a long way". Five minutes on Ye Old Google, reading a couple of blogs, and perusing the comments of the Mesh Body Addicts blog (the go-to-place for info about mesh bodies and heads in SL) for that specific mesh body and head - or even asking around a few friends inworld - would have told your acquaintance everything they needed to know about that particular brand. Never updated, never will be updated, no chance of Bento hands or heads, completely proprietary installer system that doesn't work with Omega or any other applier, the design team has split and the brand's Facebook page hasn't been updated in two years... I could go on.

When you're making that big an investment in your avatar it pays - literally - to do your research first.

But that's whole point skell do you know how many people come into SL that are not computer literate, they do not want to spend hours upon hours when instead they could be enjoying SL, what am saying and I say it again, LL's should have made a one standard mesh body  and makers and creators could have designed skins, tats, heads, feet ect , if others wanted to make thier own thing as is being done now, so be it

Edited by greek Wingtips
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2 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

But that's whole point skell do you know how many people come into SL that are not computer literate, they do not want to spend hours upon hours when instead they could be enjoying SL, what am saying and I say it again, LL's should have made a one standard mesh body  and makers and creators could have designed skins, tats, heads, feet ect , if others wanted to make thier own thing as is being done now, so be it

But they can enjoy sl on classic avatars, if mesh is too hard to learn. It sounds like you are one of those anti mesh people. no offence.

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2 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Ok simple question Morgan, does this work with the Mesh project, I bet it does not

Your answer is in my reply. TMP is famously known to be compatible with nothing but it's still your friend -and everyone- duty to be an informed consumer. Even in rl if you spent 40 bucks to buy something without checking what it is, how it works, what it can be plugged with, etc etc... you buy at your own risk. Nor you can call your bank and screams why they allowed this transaction?

And before you start to object some out-of-topic arguments, in this context LL only provided the LD she used to buy this meshbody, hence my comparison with the bank.

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Am not anti mesh, why would I ask for LL to make a standard mesh body, if you read my rants, you see I talking about LL should have made a standard one and creators could make skins, ect ect for it, so newbies or anyone could just have a mesh body without all this stupid confusion and if people want to choose a completely new mesh from as creator as we have now then so be it.

Some said" well they can have the standard Avatar"  No I say standard mesh avatar as a choice.

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4 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

they do not want to spend hours upon hours when instead they could be enjoying SL

A mesh body and mesh head are not a requirement for enjoying SL. I spent the first eight and a half years of my Second Life without either and had a lot of fun.

LL have already created standard all-mesh starter avatars, and all they did was cause even more confusion. So much so that they've been removed entirely from the new avatar onboarding process. Newbies were coming into SL wearing those mesh avatars, buying (or picking up freebies of) old system content, and being thoroughly confused as to why none of it worked.

Having an LL-created standard mesh body will not stop any of the confusion that newcomers experience when they get to grips with mesh bodies and/or heads, regardless of who makes them. The only way that LL could have stopped all confusion would be to eliminate from the grid all old content that was non-compatible with these new standard mesh avatars that you want to have. And that's simply not going to happen.

As to this point:

8 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

do you know how many people come into SL that are not computer literate

If someone is not even 'computer-literate' enough to use Google, let alone spend 15 minutes searching for a bit of information about mesh bodies, then I would suggest they stick to playing Candy Crush on their phone, or picking up The Sims 4, rather than trying to negotiate a virtual world which has always been vaguely notorious for having a bit of a steep learning curve.

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18 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Ok simple question Morgan, does this work with the Mesh project, I bet it does not

Of course it doesn't. Which would have been obvious had one typed "TMP Second Life" into Google and spent ten minutes reading. And, if one is not computer-literate enough to use Google, then asking around a few random people or friends in SL would have seen practically everyone rushing to warn about that specific brand. It's pretty much notorious by now.

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The amount of information currently required to be an adequately informed consumer is really quite daunting. There's a ton of jargon to be learned, along with concepts like stuff that was made before a certain divergence won't necessarily be labeled with certain jargon because it didn't matter when it was made.

So imagine you've wandered into this thing called Second Life, aren't really sure what it's about or whether it's something you want to do. And now you're faced with a mountain of information you don't really understand and a thousand differing opinions, including some truly nasty ones denigrating classic avs and their users. Forum regulars will have seen a few gems here.

How inclined might you be to proceed along the steep learning curve for something that's supposed to be fun and entertaining?

I'm all for seeing the best in people and helping them develop their skills, but I think the expectations of many here are asking a bit much of people who are just starting or returning.

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I don't know how to put is but my point of view is : no matter how easy we make it for the newbies they still gonna be confused at first. Thats why i spent a great deal at helping sims to try to guide them through this process. Also a problem id like mention are people who ask for help but don't bother reading and ignore tips, no amount of hand holding is gonna help them learn sl. And learning sl is part of the magical online experience :D If they pull through and stay, believe me they gonna miss being confused later on when they have seen everything.

Edited by Jeny Howlett
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