Jump to content
JoeDex

What will cause SANSAR to fail

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I seriously don't think Sansar is going to succeed. Regardless of whether VR becomes a hit or not, Sansar simply isn't good enough. Linden Lab isn't good enough to pull this off. That's what everything I've seen and heard so far indicate so that's what I believe.

And this is the real point...

4 Years down the drain, and who knows how many 10's of millions in dev budget, the sheer number of "Vice presidents in charge of something or other for Project Stupid" suggests substantial executive wage bills.

And what have they got to show for it,  A 'hella-kewl' rendering engine that makes the stolen content from every 3D mesh site on the web look really pretty, but that expensive 4 year rendering engine is tacked onto a clunky vomit-cam based backbone that's noticably behind all its 'hella-kewl' vomit-cam competitors in terms of actual fumctionality.

4 Years of wasted time, wasted effort, wasted budget and wasted talent, to stand and look at pretty steroscopic pictures of stolen mesh. Think how much better SL could have been if all that waste had stayed where it was being funded from.

LL are paying for a lot of this, and LL's source of income is SL... So yeah people feel SL is being milked to pay for Ebbe the Vainglorious' White Elephant Money Pit. And all the while we have tech-illiterate VR Kool-Aid guzzling Cyber-Geek wannabes screaming... 

"Magic 90! Magic-90! There is no Vomit, with Magic-90! Drink the Kool-Aid! It's so immersive it totally freaks out students doing combined degrees in Sociology & Comic-Books!"

A telling point that the much anticipated official press launch of Project Stupid, with LL PS Team approved hardware, and a superfast connection, all guaranteed to deliver the "Magic-90" STILL left the journalist feeling nauseous when they tried walking, and PS Execs have admitted running is on hold till they figure out how to stop runners puking!

And for the VR-Kool-Aid guzzlers amongst you, ask your self this... Why does the website for the worlds most over rated Vomit-Cam geek goggle, completely FAIL to mention the motion sickness problem, instead choosing to blame all the puke on failure to hit 'Magic-90'?

Could it be that a major geek-goggle maker has never heard of medical science? Or is it simply that telling customers that your product may cause vomiting, tends to hurt sales, but blaming vomit on "ur pc an interwebs r 2 suk for vr, by a betta cumputer..." lets them shift blame onto their customers.




 

Edited by Klytyna
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Regarding your comment about frame rates, I read about  low frame rates being one of the causes of VR sickness. What can people do to increase frame rate...better internet connection? Or what aspect in a PC configuration helps?

1

There are minimum computer/Internet system requirements to be able to run Sansar: https://help.sansar.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002967023-System-requirements

I myself had to upgrade my desktop computer to a higher-end gaming machine and I also purchased an Oculus Rift VR headset with Touch hand controllers. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Klytyna said:

And this is the real point...

I did always wonder why LL didn't start with one of the popular rendering engines inside most mainstream games then tack on their own DIY toolset and call it done. But then I realized the goal was not to create a new money-making product but to do "Kewl Techie Stuff". Really the path to "Here" (what is now Sansar) could have been a lot shorter had they used readily available tools and libraries. Which is why it feels like another example of NIH run amuck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Tell us how you really feel! </sarcasm>

I been reading, and I figured that @Klytyna doesn't like Sansar. She hates it so much that it makes her vomit :S

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Nina Jashan said:

I been reading, and I figured that @Klytyna doesn't like Sansar. She hates it so much that it makes her vomit :S

Oddly, it appears you can use Sansar without VR. (Except lack of "touch" support outside of VR.) So, there's that. Unless one likes to vomit and spend lots of money on new PC's and VR gear, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

I did always wonder why LL didn't start with one of the popular rendering engines inside most mainstream games

Licensing fees?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

I did always wonder why LL didn't start with one of the popular rendering engines inside most mainstream games then tack on their own DIY toolset and call it done. But then I realized the goal was not to create a new money-making product but to do "Kewl Techie Stuff". Really the path to "Here" (what is now Sansar) could have been a lot shorter had they used readily available tools and libraries. Which is why it feels like another example of NIH run amuck.

When you rely on prefab products (other game engines) there are limitations with what you can do down the road since you are trapped by what they've created it for (but I know you know that). I applaud that Sansar did not limit themselves by relying on preexisting game engines.
I have to wonder, is this why Sansar's avatars look so realistic (as opposed to the cartoonish VR social platform worlds that used preexisting game engines)? There are quite a few VR social platforms now, and all the avatars are cartoonish. I imagine it must have taken a lot of time and effort to achieve the realism present in Sansar even at this early stage, so no wonder it took so long.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

But still there is this nagging feeling that a more financially lucrative endeavor would have been to truly build an SL 2.0. They could still have built it on the backs of the up-and-coming VR and remote render-farm technologies while simultaneously drawing their existing customer base into a brand new universe of imagination and creation. (... and monetization.)

They must have thought going broader was the safer bet. VR social platforms are springing up like weeds, and I'm not sure many of the people using them care much about realism. But many of those who can utilize VR platforms do want realism, and these opportunities extend far beyond those who want to play house/chat/build in virtual worlds. It can be quite eye-opening to discover how many organizations are already using VR or are developing applications for the future. If Sansar manages to be appealing to them the skies the limit (with the possibility of the Promethean crash you mentioned earlier too). It's a risk either way -- too small/too big

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, ChinRey said:

So I'm going to spend quite a bit of time and effort buiding for Sansar with very little hope I'll ever get anything in return for it. Oh well.

There is now a mental health resource center experience in Sansar :) This might be useful for us on those 'stay up all night and build' times when building-psychosis sets in..lol.
For now, I'm waiting for that voxel terrain -- it might be coming in September!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Oddly, it appears you can use Sansar without VR. (Except lack of "touch" support outside of VR.) So, there's that. Unless one likes to vomit and spend lots of money on new PC's and VR gear, of course.

I'm a sensitive person, and feared I would be a likely person to vomit, and wished there was some place around the prairie where I live to try before I might buy, but there was not. So I was wary, but glad I experienced  no nausea at all, and only the slightest bit of dizziness on a fast roller coaster while shooting asteroids.

I have always liked to stand at the edge of canyons and cliffs, however, and feel the awesomeness of feeling so small in relation to the vastness of life. So no fear of heights here, or rather only a healthy/manageable fear. I've never felt dizziness in those instances in RL, and VR was the same.

Framerates run around 94 for me, so this helps perhaps.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

I did always wonder why LL didn't start with one of the popular rendering engines inside most mainstream games then tack on their own DIY toolset and call it done. But then I realized the goal was not to create a new money-making product but to do "Kewl Techie Stuff". Really the path to "Here" (what is now Sansar) could have been a lot shorter had they used readily available tools and libraries. Which is why it feels like another example of NIH run amuck.

Quote

Why Sansar Doesn’t Use Established Engines

Well, first of all Sansar is built on a whole new code-base. There is not a single line of code that is the same [as Second Life]. We’ve taken a lot of lessons from Second Life, a lot of the initial planners of Second Life were involved in Sansar; but we’ve rebuilt everything. That’s why its taken time. We decided not to use Unity or Unreal; we decided to build our own platform and create our own destiny.

One of the thing for that is about users. User creation in Unity and Unreal is extremely hard; we’ve seen that. For example, if Unity were to do a big upgrade, or Unreal, all the user creations [in Sansar] would break [and] they cannot fix that. That’s why we wanted to create our own destiny. We built out own platform … its taken a few years, but now I see its been worth it. We have our own platform, we control our own destiny; user creations will look the same after an update. That, for us, has been very important.  

  • Bjorn Linden

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bjorn's statement does make sense. I have not yet visited Sansar, and based on the min specs for PC only, it will be a while before I can. But if they truly have created an ultra-lifelike player model, unlike those in Unity and Unreal, then they have done something pretty fantastic.

I wonder if they put any thought into making the Sansar engine a standalone product that they could market to game designers? I know it might be seen as eating into their Sansar customer/creator base but .. I get the sense the two worlds are pretty far apart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Klytyna said:

And this is the real point...

4 Years down the drain, and who knows how many 10's of millions in dev budget, the sheer number of "Vice presidents in charge of something or other for Project Stupid" suggests substantial executive wage bills.

And what have they got to show for it,  A 'hella-kewl' rendering engine that makes the stolen content from every 3D mesh site on the web look really pretty, but that expensive 4 year rendering engine is tacked onto a clunky vomit-cam based backbone that's noticably behind all its 'hella-kewl' vomit-cam competitors in terms of actual fumctionality.

4 Years of wasted time, wasted effort, wasted budget and wasted talent, to stand and look at pretty steroscopic pictures of stolen mesh. Think how much better SL could have been if all that waste had stayed where it was being funded from.

LL are paying for a lot of this, and LL's source of income is SL... So yeah people feel SL is being milked to pay for Ebbe the Vainglorious' White Elephant Money Pit. And all the while we have tech-illiterate VR Kool-Aid guzzling Cyber-Geek wannabes screaming... 

"Magic 90! Magic-90! There is no Vomit, with Magic-90! Drink the Kool-Aid! It's so immersive it totally freaks out students doing combined degrees in Sociology & Comic-Books!"

A telling point that the much anticipated official press launch of Project Stupid, with LL PS Team approved hardware, and a superfast connection, all guaranteed to deliver the "Magic-90" STILL left the journalist feeling nauseous when they tried walking, and PS Execs have admitted running is on hold till they figure out how to stop runners puking!

And for the VR-Kool-Aid guzzlers amongst you, ask your self this... Why does the website for the worlds most over rated Vomit-Cam geek goggle, completely FAIL to mention the motion sickness problem, instead choosing to blame all the puke on failure to hit 'Magic-90'?

Could it be that a major geek-goggle maker has never heard of medical science? Or is it simply that telling customers that your product may cause vomiting, tends to hurt sales, but blaming vomit on "ur pc an interwebs r 2 suk for vr, by a betta cumputer..." lets them shift blame onto their customers.




 

""So I wanted to speak to that. The HMD does allow a whole other level of immersion, and it’s really great and Sansar does it very, very well. But in the work it took us to be able to do it well, we made Desktop really good. Because VR is very technically demanding to do, and the desktop mode was very much the beneficiary of that effort. So what that means in more practical terms is the renderer is very efficient, is very fast. And then means you don’t have to have a crazy expensive gaming PC to run Sansar.

Is it going to run at 60 fps on a three or four year-old laptop or a five-year-old laptop? No. But it will run at least as fast as Second Life does on that same desktop, and look prettier doing it. So Desktop really benefited through our efforts in VR. And people are in desktop, and we know that; that’s why it’s really important, unlike some apps, you can with a single press of a button or an icon, just instantaneously switch back and forth between the modes … you just smoothly transition between desktop and VR modes.  And there are times you want to do one, there’s time you want to do the other. So HMDs, if anything,  helped to make Sansar even better for Desktop.""

  • Widely Linden
Edited by NevaehHeartstrings
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Darrius Gothly said:

Bjorn's statement does make sense. I have not yet visited Sansar, and based on the min specs for PC only, it will be a while before I can. But if they truly have created an ultra-lifelike player model, unlike those in Unity and Unreal, then they have done something pretty fantastic.

I wonder if they put any thought into making the Sansar engine a standalone product that they could market to game designers? I know it might be seen as eating into their Sansar customer/creator base but .. I get the sense the two worlds are pretty far apart.

Or maybe, LL would rather not contribute to another OpenSimulator project, when at this time High Fidelity is already on a roadmap to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, NevaehHeartstrings said:

Or maybe, LL would rather not contribute to another OpenSimulator project, when at this time High Fidelity is already on a roadmap to do so.

OpenSim came about because they gave their core tech away. But if they package it and tie a Royalties Bow around it ... ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Darrius Gothly said:

OpenSim came about because they gave their core tech away. But if they package it and tie a Royalties Bow around it ... ?

Like Second Life Enterprise and why it ended, it would unlikely be reprieve with a Sansar introduction.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

But if they truly have created an ultra-lifelike player model, unlike those in Unity and Unreal, then they have done something pretty fantastic.

They haven't. UE4 has far better graphics than Sansar and I think Unity has too by now.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

They haven't. UE4 has far better graphics than Sansar and I think Unity has too by now.

I have been isolated from that community for some time now, so thank you for the update. This is one of the difficult details about developing your own render engine; the "competitors" aren't standing still.

I do understand Bjorn Linden's statement about making sure they could roll out updates without breaking everyone's content. When creating a product that focuses so heavily on content creators, that's got to stay a priority. But .. still .. I can't shake the feeling that decisions were made without a proper balance between end-product needs and neato-techie-desires. But .. it is just a feeling and not based on anything solid. If I could only be a fly on the wall ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, ChinRey said:

But if they truly have created an ultra-lifelike player model, unlike those in Unity and Unreal, then they have done something pretty fantastic.

 

17 hours ago, ChinRey said:

They haven't. UE4 has far better graphics than Sansar and I think Unity has too by now.

In my exploration of VR so far, Sansar has the best avatar (in terms of looking realistic along with the eventual capability of greater user-controlled interaction) when comparing any of the VR social setups where the avatar can move around freely. In other words, I'm not referring to scripted games where the avatar look and limited action is mainly determined by the creators of the scripted game. I'm only referring to VR chatrooms/social platforms (Facebook Places, VRChat, AltSpaceVR, MetaWorld, Hifi, and the numerous VR chat spaces @ Oculus & Steam).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One interesting feature for avatars @ Sansar I've heard discussed, is the ability to instantly change the avatar who enters your Experience. For example, say you created a fantasy environment for elves. Anyone who wanted to access your Experience would have to choose to turn into an elf (in other words, you wouldn't have to endure storm troopers with guns running around your elven fantasy world, and an integrated atmosphere could be maintained).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the reasons I even got into Second Life was the ability to have an avatar I can call my own.  The easy to use system of making objects was fun!  It was simple!  There was a vast world of interconnected places all jointly created which made for a really fun world to explore!  I could walk around and see places as I go along!  Though yes... the sim boundaries were annoying.  But it was neat to see how people made scripts to do all kinds of things.  Cars, games, etc all within Second Life!  

As time went on, more and more features were added to improve avatar creation!  flex prims, Sculpts, Mesh, fitmesh, Material shaders, BENTO!  The options kept growing!  And the world was still a thing to explore... sure it did diminish as costs to even host things kept going up.

So now the main draw of Second Life is... I can have my avatar, and I have a fairly unorthodox avatar (Gigantic 45ft anthropomorphic fox), and how it did take time for me to develop and it was great!  And it feels like my hard work paid off, as many find it interesting, and unique because one can't just adjust a slider and be big, it takes work.  It's a double edged sword... to be easy and get where I want... but be nothing new (and probably obnoxious with a giant avatar)  or to be something that people look up to me and go "Wow!" but take time (and would likely have to go through years-decades more to finally get back to where I was in SL.)

The way I am seeing Sansar right now... is removing alot of what I LOVE about Second Life, and focusing on just allowing people to make pretty art scenes.  The interface is difficult to use,   it feels like someone has to be a professional 3D artist to make the most out of Second Life, not the casual consumer.  VR is nice... but really... maybe I just want Sansar to be just as Second Life is now... just remade from the ground up to have better code structure which Second Life is sort of a jumbled mess that barely holds itself together... but at least it works, and does what I want in a 3D social program... the ability to live as something I could never be in real life.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/25/2017 at 8:38 AM, Luna Bliss said:

One interesting feature for avatars @ Sansar I've heard discussed, is the ability to instantly change the avatar who enters your Experience. For example, say you created a fantasy environment for elves. Anyone who wanted to access your Experience would have to choose to turn into an elf (in other words, you wouldn't have to endure storm troopers with guns running around your elven fantasy world, and an integrated atmosphere could be maintained).

Wow thank you, yet another reason for never visiting Sansar. 

SL: my world.. my vision. Sansar:  their world.. their vision

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Wow thank you, yet another reason for never visiting Sansar. 

SL: my world.. my vision. Sansar:  their world.. their vision

:)

In an odd sort of way BilliJo, you may have hit on the exact reason why LL doesn't actively market Sansar to SL Residents. It isn't for "Us" .. not in the least. It's for the other side of the brain type people that want to visit and experience grand vistas, magical kingdoms and fantasy getaways. But just visit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...