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5 minutes ago, Darrius Gothly said:

What follows are my personal opinions

Rest assured, someone will disagree with your personal opinions because they are clueless.  Even though personal opinions are neither "right" or "wrong" by definition.  

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3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Rest assured, someone will disagree with your personal opinions because they are clueless.  Even though personal opinions are neither "right" or "wrong" by definition.  

S'okay. I'm used to having my opinions dragged through the dirt. I have offspring. :S

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A very good friend of mine, after reading my earlier post, shared this thought with me today:

Quote

... each person that is meant to be with us fills a void in us and most of us are able to love different persons on different kind of levels.

Yup.

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6 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

(prepare for a patented "DG Wall-O-Text" .. and here you thought it was safe to enter the Forums again. What follows are my personal opinions and since they are free, chances are good they're worth every penny too.)

At the very top level, I agree with this opinion. But real-life is seldom so black and white .. especially when it comes to humans. In any working relationship there are all forms of cheating. They can range from simple things such as "who ate my cookies" to more impactful forms such as adultery. A very common "cheat" involves communal monies. One or both partners may hide money from the other partner, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for bad. How it affects you, your partner and your relationship is something that seems not only fluid (changing over time and with circumstances) but also uniquely personal to each relationship. So to label someone a "Cheater" and carve a giant red "A" on their forehead from outside the relationship is overly presumptive and can lead to some real damage in unintended ways.

Speaking from a purely personal (me, myself, and I) perspective, SL Relationships can be incredibly beneficial, satisfying and tormenting. I have had RL relationships with people I knew before I came to SL, after I came to SL and totally disconnected from SL. I have also had SL-only relationships that ranged from strictly virtual to including some elements of RL. (Pics, phone, skype. etc.)

There was a time when I could easily compartmentalize them. I could even engage in more than one at a time. I could do so both with and without full disclosure to my RL wife. Those relationships fed an appetite within me that could not be satisfied in the traditional "proper way". They came and went depending on my personal desires and my various other commitments and limitations.

For me (and I suspect for most others as well) those relationships carried a "Guilt" burden as well. However it would be wrong to assume the weight of that guilt was directly proportional to the RL-to-SL ratio. I won't attempt to describe my internal calculations. Suffice to say each unique relationship has its own unique level of guilt.

I will though take the time to explain one component of that calculation: How much pleasure and satisfaction was derived by my trysting partner. I have never been one to engage in one-sided relationships. Whether that one side was all for my benefit or all for the benefit of the other. If it wasn't something that gave us both pleasure in roughly equal amounts then it either never started or ended quickly.

And therein is, I believe, the secret sauce of SL relationships: What makes them start and what makes them last and grow. And ultimately fail too. Just like RL relationships, they must satisfy the desires and needs of both parties. When they become unbalanced, when outside forces cause changes in the mutual benefits, when time or boredom or illness or a multitude of other factors get folded in, SL and RL relationships can fall apart and can even become toxic (and sadly sometimes even fatal).

To my mind, declaring an SL relationship wrong based on its "Cheating Quotient" is short-sighted and ultimately incorrect. Further, to assert that "Cheating" in an SL relationship automatically demands the end of an otherwise healthy and balanced RL relationship is imposing one's own beliefs on the actions and feelings of others. If the world didn't have enough painful examples of why THAT particular form of social bullying is wrong, I think we can at least safely say that demanding others love and like according to your own desires will plop you into emotional quicksand faster than you can counteract.

(ready for the finale?)

Is Cheating wrong? Are SL relationships, hidden from a RL partner, wrong? Yes .. and No. Your answer depends on you and is (or should be) unique only to you.

Okay. I'll shut up now. I have stupid stuff to do. *waves*

TL/DR :P

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@Drake1:

6 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

(prepare for a patented "DG Wall-O-Text" ..

 

19 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

TL/DR :P

You were warned! -_-:P

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38 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

TL/DR :P

I often don't read the long ones, but that one was actually worth it - well thought out and articulated.

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13 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

To my mind, declaring an SL relationship wrong based on its "Cheating Quotient" is short-sighted and ultimately incorrect. Further, to assert that "Cheating" in an SL relationship automatically demands the end of an otherwise healthy and balanced RL relationship is imposing one's own beliefs on the actions and feelings of others. If the world didn't have enough painful examples of why THAT particular form of social bullying is wrong, I think we can at least safely say that demanding others love and like according to your own desires will plop you into emotional quicksand faster than you can counteract.

Excuse me, but if someone clearly cheats on their partner ( f*cks another person behind their back/has a second relationship up and running while in a "exclusive" relationship) I dare to say what they are doing is wrong. And if I knew someone, who is cheating, I would instantly seek a way to tell the unaware part(s) of the love triangle, no matter if RL or SL. And dare to do that to me or a close friend and I'd make sure life becomes a waking nightmare for you. I don't give a ***** about some philosophical nonsense, when you hurt someone, you hurt them. End of the story.

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2 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

... when you hurt someone, you hurt them. End of the story.

Agreed. But is the "cheater" doing the hurting, or are you? Here's an analogy that may help you picture it better:

I'm out in the woods with my fancy dancy automatic crossbow. I'm flinging bolts like mad into the dense forest aimed away from my house. But you, upon seeing me shooting those bolts, immediately go grab my partner and put her (unbeknownst to me) directly in my line of fire. My next bolt lets fly and ... THWAP! .. my partner is dead.

Who is the killer?

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13 hours ago, Darrius Gothly said:

S'okay. I'm used to having my opinions dragged through the dirt. I have offspring. :S

S'okay. However, if you've got ISSUES, then I've got TISSUES! :P

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1 hour ago, Darrius Gothly said:

Agreed. But is the "cheater" doing the hurting, or are you? Here's an analogy that may help you picture it better:

I'm out in the woods with my fancy dancy automatic crossbow. I'm flinging bolts like mad into the dense forest aimed away from my house. But you, upon seeing me shooting those bolts, immediately go grab my partner and put her (unbeknownst to me) directly in my line of fire. My next bolt lets fly and ... THWAP! .. my partner is dead.

Who is the killer?

We sure all can when it's cheating and when it's not cheating but why? Why someone is cheating is indeed a lot more complicated. Human pyshcology is definitely more complex than black and white. There are even situations where someone finds herself to cheat her partner while she didn't even had the initial intention to.

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1 hour ago, Darrius Gothly said:

Agreed. But is the "cheater" doing the hurting, or are you? Here's an analogy that may help you picture it better:

I'm out in the woods with my fancy dancy automatic crossbow. I'm flinging bolts like mad into the dense forest aimed away from my house. But you, upon seeing me shooting those bolts, immediately go grab my partner and put her (unbeknownst to me) directly in my line of fire. My next bolt lets fly and ... THWAP! .. my partner is dead.

Who is the killer?

I know what you are trying to say, but I don't think it works so well. If I tell someone whats going on, I'm not the one causing the pain. I don't become the cheater. And this isn't some Schrödingers Cat situation. The cheating is happening and it doesn't become less "cheating" just because your partner doesn't know about it. To tie back to your mental image: You aren't not shooting bolts, just because you have not told anyone about it. And it also doesn't matter if you are shooting bolts in the woods or your front yard.

And in contrast to the crossbow situation you are well aware what you are doing. You are shooting bolts and _hope_ you are in an area of the woods, where your partner isn't going to collect mushrooms. The whole fact that you have to hide what you are doing is prove that you know its wrong and will cause damage. But the cheater doesn't do that out of protection for their unknowing partner: This is happening for pure selfish motives. You don't want to be confronted with stress, drama and anger. Its less about wanting to spare the other persons feelings and more about your own comfort. Often enough your new lover also doesn't know that you already have a partner. Are you protecting their feelings aswell? No.

Cheating is about fullfilling ones needs, but being too comfortable or too cowardly to risk or give up what you already "own".

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1 minute ago, Syo Emerald said:

I know what you are trying to say, but I don't think it works so well. If I tell someone whats going on, I'm not the one causing the pain. I don't become the cheater. And this isn't some Schrödingers Cat situation. The cheating is happening and it doesn't become less "cheating" just because your partner doesn't know about it. To tie back to your mental image: You aren't not shooting bolts, just because you have not told anyone about it. And it also doesn't matter if you are shooting bolts in the woods or your front yard.

And in contrast to the crossbow situation you are well aware what you are doing. You are shooting bolts and _hope_ you are in an area of the woods, where your partner isn't going to collect mushrooms. The whole fact that you have to hide what you are doing is prove that you know its wrong and will cause damage. But the cheater doesn't do that out of protection for their unknowing partner: This is happening for pure selfish motives. You don't want to be confronted with stress, drama and anger. Its less about wanting to spare the other persons feelings and more about your own comfort. Often enough your new lover also doesn't know that you already have a partner. Are you protecting their feelings aswell? No.

Cheating is about fullfilling ones needs, but being too comfortable or too cowardly to risk or give up what you already "own".

If I accept what you are saying then the bottom-line point you are making is: Your moral indignation gives you the right to meddle in the private affairs and relationships of others. To put the shoe on the other foot, my moral indignation gives me the right to demand my partner never speak to you, associate with you or even mention your name in our household or our lives again.

Seems pretty fair to me. After all, as I am a partner in the relationship, I have a higher moral authority on how it works than you do. Don't you agree?

BTW: Even if I'm not cheating, and this is a purely personal opinion, I would demand any partner of mine excommunicate you. Your simple mistake (seeing me with a co-worker for example) could result in you totally destroying what was a totally healthy and working relationship. That sort of busybody nosiness never ends well for anyone involved.

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5 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

Excuse me, but if someone clearly cheats on their partner ....

To be even more expositive, I have faced this situation from your position before. How did I handle it? I went to the "Cheater" and told her she was in jeopardy of very badly hurting someone she loved. I suggested she reexamine both of her relationships and make a choice that would be hard but would eventually save a lot of innocent's heartache. Then I told her that it was her choice and her secret was safe with me. But I reinforced that she was doing something she knew was wrong and any negative fallout would be hers alone to own.

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1 hour ago, Darrius Gothly said:

Even if I'm not cheating, and this is a purely personal opinion, I would demand any partner of mine excommunicate you. Your simple mistake (seeing me with a co-worker for example) could result in you totally destroying what was a totally healthy and working relationship.

I highly question the health of a relationship, where one person feels the need to cheat on their partner. If your partner was okay with you sleeping around, kissing other women and developing a number of X other relationships, you wouldn't have to hide that, right? Then sure, your actions would be part of a healthy relationship...but then there would never be a problem with somebody pointing those things out to your partner, because she would be aware of it already. (Also: On what basis do you assume I make a mistake? If I see you and someone else screwing on the copier, I'm probably not the one making the mistake here).

Don't try to shove the blame on the observer. The cheater is complete and soley responsible for their actions. If their dirty secret is uncovered and results in trouble for them, thats the price they have to pay for their actions. The moment someones decides to go down that path they also carry the risk that comes with it. That does not get changed by the source of who or what uncovers their secrets. This starts to sound a lot like you feel pissed that someone else could ruin your "fair chance" of getting away with it. Like its a game or something.

1 hour ago, Darrius Gothly said:

After all, as I am a partner in the relationship, I have a higher moral authority on how it works than you do.

How your relationship worked is not definied by only you, but is an agreement between you an your partner. You broke that agreement, when you decieded to cheat on your partner (or otherwise it wouldn't be cheating).

 

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5 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Don't try to shove the blame on the observer. The cheater is complete and soley responsible for their actions.

Agreed. The "Cheater" is responsible for their actions. They are also responsible for any potential damage they do. But it is not your place to light the fuse on that bomb. You have no right to stick your nose in someone else's relationship. If you do then (in my opinion) you are committing a wrong just as egregious as the Cheater.

A lot of building and maintaining a long-term and healthy relationship is negotiating what is acceptable for both parties. Some relationships are even able to reach a point where they allow outside dalliances. More power to 'em. But not all can reach that point. So another important aspect of a healthy relationship is finding ways to keep yourself sane and happy without either terminating the relationship or causing irreparable damage.

When a partner is unable to meet all of their needs wholly and completely within the relationship, they have two choices. End the relationship or meet the need (or desire!) outside. I have seen way too many otherwise solid relationships disintegrate into oblivion because one partner was miserable beyond solace. They loved their partner and were otherwise quite happy, but that one "pebble in the shoe" issue grew and grew until it eventually destroyed things. In my experience, that issue is almost always transitory; it will go away after a short time but only after it has been met.

13 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

How your relationship worked is not definied by only you, but is an agreement between you an your partner. You broke that agreement, when you decieded to cheat on your partner (or otherwise it wouldn't be cheating).

Agreed again. But that agreement is, as you state, between the two partners and at no time did it ever involve you. In my opinion, inserting yourself into it because of your personal feelings is even more wrong.

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To be rather blunt on this @Syo Emerald, even friends are not always privy to the details of a person's relationship(s). As a personal example of such from a prior relationship, my then real life partner and I had a semi-open relationship and did not share this information with many of our friends. Our own rules for such were set up in such a way that Second Life interactions were considered to be perfectly fine so long as any potential meet ups in real life were discussed between us, agreed upon and that this prospective person knew and understood the nature of our relationship.

Owing to some insecurities on her part I never took what I did in Second Life outside of it even though she herself did on several occasions. Yes some became friends outside Second Life and were even friendly with her, some having guessed the nature of our relationship.

Along comes a busybody friend of hers in Second Life that treats it as a full extension of real life, seeing me spending time with a then pet of mine at a club; a not uncommon thing for me to have been doing and quite fine as far as my real life partner was concerned. Said busybody decides to message my partner and tell her what was seen and overheard, phrasing it in such a way that my partner now believes I have gone behind her back and was making real life plans without her knowledge or consent.

While this was eventually cleared up the damage had been done; she continued to have her fun in Second Life and still made occasional real life plans but all but demanded I either cease my own play or give her full access to my account or logs.

The funniest part of this is that in reality I should have been the one concerned and making such changes as she later went on to sever the relationship and move in with someone else; someone she'd been playing with in Second Life and had made plans with, behind my back with no one having been aware of it and started after the mentioned incident.

In short where Second Life is concerned; unless given specific information you have not a clue what arrangements have been made behind the keyboard and have no right whatsoever to interfere with another's business. As far as real life is concerned if you are not privy to every detail of a person's relationship(s), keep to yourself.

Edited by Solar Legion
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To be frank, I got tired of the convolutions and excuses and lies men came up with when they were trying to get me to help them cheat on their RL or SL partners.

Rather than get caught up in their twists and turns and complicated philosophies, my answer is now just this: there are limits as to how low a priority I'll let myself be in someone's life. I'm just not interested in being a hidden option for you. It will take too much from me.

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If I had a partner, that would get into romantic and/or sexual relationships behind my back and my friends would know about it, but keep quiet, I would feel betrayed by them, too and not just by my partner. Because I expect my friends to be loyal, honest and act in my interest...and not protect the person abusing my trust.

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18 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

If I had a partner, that would get into romantic and/or sexual relationships behind my back and my friends would know about it, but keep quiet, I would feel betrayed by them, too and not just by my partner. Because I expect my friends to be loyal, honest and act in my interest...and not protect the person abusing my trust.

I expect my friends to be loyal, honest, to act in my best interest, to know as accurately as possible what that happens to be as opposed to what they believe it to be and to know better than to act at all when they do not possess enough information.

I understand that your opinion and moral code comes from the perspective of monogamous/wholly closed relationships among other things. Do understand however that not everyone shares even slightly similar views and morals. I cannot speak for @Darrius Gothly but I can certainly speak for myself and my own relationship(s); After the above mentioned relationship went sour I simply ceased seeking one at all and in fact became almost suicidally depressed at one point (the particulars of which I do not feel like sharing in an open post.) At my lowest point I was introduced to the person that would end up being my present partner and  after a time we discussed how our relationship would proceed. We settled on a fully open, poly potential relationship and have not looked back nor regretted it. We are each free to do as we please in Second Life and have reasonable freedoms and limits in real life. In our case we have the sort of trust that allows for such a relationship to function, despite our individual baggage.

Bear this information in mind should you choose to directly respond.

Edited by Solar Legion
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I have a question, primarily for those that think that anything happening in SL that is being hidden from your RL other is considered cheating.

Suppose I am curious about possibly expanding my sexuality -- maybe experimenting with lesbian sex.  I'm not really sure how I feel about such, but I've got some quesstions and curiosity.  Now, I do know my husband well enough to know that absolutely any indication that I might want to have sex with another woman will have him feeling incredibly inadequate.  He will be quite upset that he cannot fill my needs, he will agonize over what he has done wrong and what is wrong with him. Whereas the truth is, I don't yet know how I feel about the whole thing.  While experimenting in SL might be considered cheating, I would still view it as a lesser evil than hurting him for no reason if my experimenting proves to be something I am ultimately not interested in pursuing further.

It is these types of things that I don't know about other people and therefore I would not dare to throw my views and judgement onto them - and I most definitely would not interject myself into their personal lives based on some possibly false judgement.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I have a question, primarily for those that think that anything happening in SL that is being hidden from your RL other is considered cheating.

Suppose I am curious about possibly expanding my sexuality -- maybe experimenting with lesbian sex.  I'm not really sure how I feel about such, but I've got some quesstions and curiosity.  Now, I do know my husband well enough to know that absolutely any indication that I might want to have sex with another woman will have him feeling incredibly inadequate.  He will be quite upset that he cannot fill my needs, he will agonize over what he has done wrong and what is wrong with him. Whereas the truth is, I don't yet know how I feel about the whole thing.  While experimenting in SL might be considered cheating, I would still view it as a lesser evil than hurting him for no reason if my experimenting proves to be something I am ultimately not interested in pursuing further.

It is these types of things that I don't know about other people and therefore I would not dare to throw my views and judgement onto them - and I most definitely would not interject myself into their personal lives based on some possibly false judgement.

My ex-hubby and I, though still great friends, grew far enough apart over our decade together that we deemed it best to part company. And the operative word in that statement is "grew". It's nice to think that two people, once coupled, will grow together in the same ways, but that doesn't always happen. I don't think any of us would suggest that people stop growing to avoid growing apart from a partner.

I just heard Krista Tippet interview cultural anthropologist Mary Catherine Bateson (Margaret Meade's daughter) on her radio show "On Being". Here's an exchange I found insightful:

MS. TIPPETT:  I’ve heard that your mother said that everyone has three marriages, even if it’s to the same person. Is that true?

MS. BATESON: I haven’t ever heard it quoted in exactly that way. I think that adding “even if it’s to the same person” does make sense. I mean marriage — I don’t know if you’ve heard this statistic, but the average duration of a marriage in the United States today is longer than it was in colonial times.

MS. TIPPETT: Yeah, because people didn’t live as long, and women died in childbirth?

MS. BATESON: Exactly. Divorce could be called a replacement for death. I mean that’s a cynical way of putting it, but the point is, we think of marriage as a relationship between two mature people, hopefully, who love each other and settle in to constancy and continuity. And in fact, those two people are growing and changing all the time. I mean just as you have to keep learning your infant from week to week, because the infant is growing and discovering things, marriage requires a constant rhythm of adaptation between two people who are changing. And much as we would like the constancy, it’s actually quite a challenge.

Is it cheating to experiment with ideas that ultimately lead you to grow apart from a partner? I can construct scenarios in which that's the case. And I don't think such cases require another person. I was more comfortable discussing certain matters in anonymous online venues than with my ex-hubby. I had no online intimate relationships, but I explored ideas. That exploration took time, time that could have been spent on our relationship. It took years before I revealed to my ex that my biological clock wasn't ticking and that I enjoyed my career too much to dilute my attention to it with children. He now has four beautiful li'l monsters.

This topic is entirely too complex for me to have answers. Personally, I trust my gut, forgive it the occasional mistake and make amends where necessary.

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Two things.

1: No one controls me and I control no one else. Far as I'm concerned, as long as someone is here for me without neglecting me, regardless of who or what else there is (one can take more of an interest in games or clubs for example) then it's fine in my book. It's only an issue if there's a "lack of interest". I also believe in doing away with commitment (eg: Not expecting another to be there. They will or won't as they shall or shan't. Can't force that kind of thing).

2: If someone is doing something behind my back then I take issue with it. Not because it's "cheating" (I'm poly myself so it's fine with me) but because it's keeping secrets. Plain and simple. Be HONEST with me and things are good. Trust isn't the only factor here. It has to do with FEAR. Does someone think I will assume the worst of them? Fortunately I can say no with those I know. But considering lots of people turn on their loved ones when bad things happen I can't exactly blame anyone that gets afraid either. Yea, that's loyalty... Tch. When I love someone I'm there no. Matter. What. Unless they expect things from me or avoid me for not being what they want me to be.

As for online/offline, people are still people on the net, and hearts aren't toys. Regardless of the environment it's a simple case of caring enough to be there for someone or not (and having them there back). There's a number of factors to take into consideration with this. Online doesn't translate to easier either. I don't live in just anyones SL home after all.

What the OP post is ACTUALLY asking is "Is it cheating if you're with another". IMO it's not if you state "Others matter too" (be it in the present or a possible future) and then see people having said that. If someone doesn't like it, tough, I have my mental health to consider. I go out of my way to be there for those that give me a chance and my owner actually had major trust issues yet now things are amazing with her. I worked hard to "be there". Express an interest. Make sure it was returned. While ALSO helping with things between her and her other pet too. Which brings us closer as a result. I look after her happiness, she looks after mine. Simple. One can take more of an active interest in games or clubs too, so it's not even person specific. At the end of the day it's about "Are they there and are they trying to make the time".

We struggle to make the time actively at times. It's a dom/sub thing. Can be something to work on. But she tries. And that's enough for me.

Now as for relationships online, I once "cheated" online myself. Though looking back on it I have to wonder how many people are unaware of things like poly when it happens. I also have an ex (the one I "cheated" with) who saw people without me wanting to know too (despite this and other events we're on the best of terms now and I'm one of the few people she can open up too). People do stupid ***** for a reason. Often it's due to fear. Fear can lead to hate or/and silence tongues. You have two choices when someone is like that. You can either blame them and make it about yourself (counterproductive each and every time in my experience) or you can grow up, understand that there's an issue that needs working on and try to talk to them about it. The catch 22 is that people can be too afraid to talk. Not because they don't care though but because they do and they're afraid of making things worse with you. Maybe they mistrust you yet want you around them despite saying "I blame you and want nothing to do with you" (like with my ex in the past). It's not a "betrayal" if someone needs to be with others. And even if someone isn't seeing others the need itself will still be there. It doesn't mean they don't want to be with you. It can as easily mean "I'm up your butt 24/7 and I get lonely easily when you're not around, which leaves me with nothing to do because I can't do things with myself alone because I crave interaction which leads to depression when I'm left to my own devices alone". I'll say it straight, if you're around me all the time I'll drive you bonkers. I talk a lot, I need constant attention and latch onto people (though of course I never force my company on anyone). Can you understand how such a topic can not want to be talked about, yet of course sometimes people can't help but be with "Other person that also matters" and things can happen. Not something that happened with me, it's just an example of a seemingly bad situation which can be just as bad if not worse for the other person involved that you might be blaming. Online. Offline. Doesn't. Matter. It all comes down to "Oh hey, my actions affect you in that way, but this is why I need to go about actions my way too". People. Games. Clubs. Whatever. I'll trust someone to make the time if they're there and around. Likewise I need to be trusted in turn. Even I get "neglect fears" (relationship with the owner was newer in the past) but I didn't make it about me. Her happiness too. This in turn has lead to "our" happiness.

For example, I put my foot down on "Others also matter". But then I go out of my way to be there for anyone that does matter, as long as they don't fear the worst of things with me and give me a chance to be there. It's gone well each and every time. And anyone I've fallen out with in the past I'm currently on the best of terms with. It's simple communication. How things affect you and others. Care enough to find out. Or don't. I make the time for the former, don't bother with the later.

There's also the fact that just because someone goes out to a bar and finds a random guy to sleep with it doesn't mean they don't care about you either. That's more likely caring so much that they need to find any random person to distract themselves with. And then it all gets a bit technical with "Caring yet not wanting too" and "They're neglectful because they might care and are afraid" and it all gets overwhelming. I also reminded myself of an ex of another ex as I type this. Midnight drunk car crash when she called him over. Slowly wasted away in hospital. I didn't like him. He didn't like me. But both of us mattered to her... I miss him not because I care about him but because I care about "her" happiness. Maybe we would be on better terms now if he had survived. But then... it's part of how I learned what I know now. Everyone learns the hard way I guess. That's not even the darkest turn of events, but I've said enough on that account.

 

I've developed a simple tactic though. Does another care enough to try and be brave with me? I let others do the walking. For my part I stick around and see where things go. Sucks when someone doesn't make the time and lets their fear get the better of them. Awesome when someone sticks around and is there for me. Simple enough saying I have. "If you can't accept me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best". Nobody's perfect after all. Likewise it's always a risk. BUt nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Edited by Taramafor
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32 minutes ago, Taramafor said:

... It's simple communication. ...

There's the nugget of gold in your post .. for me at least. Communication usually turns out to be the simplest solution. Not always the easiest, but by far it works out to be the best and most effective. IMO anyway.

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13 minutes ago, Darrius Gothly said:

There's the nugget of gold in your post .. for me at least. Communication usually turns out to be the simplest solution. Not always the easiest, but by far it works out to be the best and most effective. IMO anyway.

Thing is a lot of people think it's something that applies only in a relationship.

Personally I do away with "relationship label here" and instead "express an interest". I don't try to get into relationships. They just happen because I talk about things. About myself and others alike. I think I get close to people easier because I'm more open. And try to find out as much as I can about others.

Everything is subjective too. How things happen with me will NOT be the same as how they happen with others. Maybe in a similar way but if X has bad experience with Y, neither me or you are either X or Y. You're Z. A completely different person. Where things can happen very differently, even with "Bad experience here". It really bothers me (and I suspect others) when someone is put off something that's "between us" just because it went bad with someone else, of who I am not.

Actually had to ask myself if I'd be able to stay with my owner (back before she was my owner. Was visiting and never left the home). But she is NOT others that I met in the past. I kept having to remind myself of that. And now here I am as her pet. So that says it all really.

Edited by Taramafor
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