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I wanted to add something else,especially after reading other responses...it's  going to be super duper long  feel free to skip over me... 

Some years ago, I had a dear rl friend that I had invited in to sl. She was a bit uninterested, but she obliged me after incessant begging on my part for months. She came in, I helped her get all set up, learn the ropes, and start enjoying her sl. We hung out a lot at first, but then she went her own way, and I mine, we still hung out but our crowds were different crowds(and of course, our rl friendship remained as it had since we were preschoolers). She met someone in sl, I was skeptical of him, she was, at first too. To say she fell into puppy love/lust, would be a disservice to her, but she definitely fell, and fell hard. She did try and take things slowly, well by sl standards anyway, and she managed being pretty cautious about herself, him, their relationship and the things that could go wrong. Since they lived in different states, taking things into rl beyond skype, phone, messenger, etc.. was too difficult. But they did make plans. 

Fast forward a year, things are going well with her and her bf, she thought. She was in love..they were in love, they were making rl plans. They had met in rl quite few times, she'd even spent a couple days with him, they had talked about her moving to be with him. She enjoyed her initial visits with him,but as time grew, she was starting to feel like a different person, because *he was being different towards her. She let her heart do the leading, and not her head. They were together for almost two years, altogether, but the last couple months of their relationship was rocky, at best. And then one day, something kind of snapped in her, and I didn't know why. I didn't understand what had happened, but she was beyond depressed, it was awful to watch, to hear, but I couldn't quite get her to open up about it completely. It was just "having some problems"(not typical for us, we talked about everything). I had finally been able to get her to talk to me, about a month later, and she finally put it all out on the table for me. His wife had called her, after finding her information on his phone records....his WIFE. The call did not go well.

Neither woman knew the other existed. His explanation to his wife, and my friend, was that it's "just sl", "not real", he's "just playing". But, for my friend...it was real, all of it, right down to the *****ty way he treated her sometimes those last couple months-which she'd hoped they were working through. She tried talking to the woman, but, well that didn't go so well. Suffice it to say, the woman berated her as if SHE was in the wrong. After my friend left him,  the asshats would do everything possible to try and continue to make her life a living hell..and I mean hell. She felt so horrid, as if she truly did break a family apart. The two of them made certain she knew that she had. I can't even begin to describe how she felt. This thoughtful, amazing, intelligent, beautiful woman, felt as if she'd not only ruined her own life, but the lives of FIVE other people...three of them young children. 

One day, it was all too much for her, though. I went over to her house, after not hearing from her the night before-when we normally would have talked. Her mom hadn't heard from her either, and that worried me a little, since they talked daily no matter what. So, I went to her house, rang the bell, the dog started barking, as he does. She didn't answer. I look around the side of the house. Hmm..car's here. I rang again and waited a few more minutes..nothing. Now you need to know that we had a VERY close relationship, one of those "you can walk in my door, I can walk in yours". So, I did, thinking maybe she's in the shower, taking a bath, maybe a nap, it wasn't that unusual. I greeted the pup, who was clearly in need of going outside, so I let him out back. Yelled for her..no answer. I walked down the hall.....and I'm not going to tell you what I found. Suffice it to say, I screamed, and called 911. There was a note...and in it....it all stemmed with him his "it's not cheating" attitude,  and how she was such a horrid person for tearing a family apart, she couldn't live with that feeling anymore..she couldn't live with what she'd done, how she'd hurt his wife(yes she actually CARED about hurting another woman, unintentionally or not) 

People like him..are why I judge relationships harshly, he's not a minority in how he views sl, and relationships, which also saddens me, a lot. He took his idea of "not cheating" and ran with it. To this day, he still feels the same way "it's just sl", "it's not cheating".He's had a few "partners" and "wives" in sl since too, all of whom he, of course "loves with all his heart". He has no remorse for the role he played in her depression. He has no remorse for what happened. He simply does not care.  This may be an extreme case on the exterior...but in reality, it's not, just the end result is.  While not everyone that learns they were cheated on, or worse took part in someone else being cheated on, is likely to fall into a deep depression, or experience what my friend did...they ALL have feelings, and they will ALL suffer to some extent. If something you do in sl is not something you can be honest with your rl partner about, it is *nearly always because you are, in fact, cheating, in some fashion, on your rl partner. That's not ever going to be kosher in my eyes....not ever. I don't care why people do it, how they do it, or if they want to use the "I keep sl and rl separate" excuse for it. I also don't care if it makes me a judgmental ass..I'll wear my crown proudly, and judge you from my absolutely loyal and faithful at all times,  high horse. 

It.Will.Never.Be.Ok,  for me. You might not think you're hurting that person, by simply not telling them. But what if you are? What if you're slowly tearing that person down, bit by bit, and either not recognizing it, or just not caring about it? Do you ever stop to consider that possibility? Hiding something you do in sl, from a rl partner, isn't quite on the same level as telling your kid that Santa's coming, so he needs to get in bed real quick and get to sleep on Christmas Eve. People hide things from partners, more often than not, because they *know* it's wrong. Not because it's harmless, but quite the opposite..usually 


I shouldn't comment on, or even read, these threads..it's a bad idea. Now I'm getting all judgy just reading the responses in all the threads like this. "I thought that person was a good person...guess not". Sigh. I need to work on my self control. 

 

Edited by Tari Landar
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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

If you rob a bank or set off a bomb in SL, you gain nothing in RL. If you have sex in SL then the chances are it will affect your RL body and mind. That's the difference. Your RL husband may be the beneficiary of the effect :)  If you can have SLex without it sexually arousing your RL body, fine. Just don't offer it to me :D  SL whores can do that, of course, because it's just a job, and they can churn it out even from a script without any emotions being involved at all. But I think this topic isn't about that. I think this topic is more about personal relationships, and those who do get 'involved' in RL.

Ah, but it is exactly about that. You said yourself that cheating is cheating because "One is getting aroused with someone else, and the other is getting aroused not with someone else." If the someone else isn't getting aroused at all, is it still cheating? A really good AI could do the same. Hell there are anime "games" that let you choose actions that have different results from the program depending on what you click. With a VR headset, it could be very realistic. 

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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

This is a forum and, unless stated otherwise, post are written for all.

This is a form and, even when otherwise stated, posts are written for all. (Unless you hide your message in plain sight, which is fun).

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18 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Ah, but it is exactly about that. You said yourself that cheating is cheating because "One is getting aroused with someone else, and the other is getting aroused not with someone else." If the someone else isn't getting aroused at all, is it still cheating? A really good AI could do the same. Hell there are anime "games" that let you choose actions that have different results from the program depending on what you click. With a VR headset, it could be very realistic. 

There's already at least one man who's developed a relationship with a robot. This will become increasingly common.

And there's this... http://fortune.com/2016/07/10/ashley-madison-chatbots/

I can imagine a future in which chatbots are the catch, not the lure.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters

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5 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Ah. I misunderstood you then. Yes, we get people coming to moan about it when it happens to them. I thought you'd meant that we have dicussions as to whether or not it's cheating solely as an academic discussion, like this thread is.

Ah yes, I should have been a bit more clear.  While we have had tons of these discussions around here - at least back in my early years - they were almost always within some thread talking about SL relationship woes.  There might have been a few threads specifically started for discussing the topic, but not many.  In pretty much all cases that I remember, regardless of where the topic was disccussed, there was often much arguing back and forth as folks expressed their opinions - and we are definitely a varied group, thus we have a varied set of opinions.

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On 8/9/2017 at 6:47 AM, Tari Landar said:

Relationships in sl..much like relationships in rl..should be between the parties involved. I'm not convinced our anecdotal opinions would matter much in the grand scheme, nor change the opinions of those that don't agree with us.  I also know these discussions never end well.

So...

Have a sloth, instead...

just-a-comfy-baby-sloth-in-a-box-3090428.png.784bb55dc66bb3ba7d5ce5da022330d8.png

I'm generally proud of my current cultural cluelessness. But, for some reason, I am aware of this...

And you thought a sloth was safe ground.

;-).

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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On 8/10/2017 at 3:31 PM, Madelaine McMasters said:

There's already at least one man who's developed a relationship with a robot.

Well when I was a baby boy I had a relationship with a teddy bear... I guess is the same thing... lol. xD

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On 8/10/2017 at 1:22 PM, Tari Landar said:

People like him... He has no remorse for the role he played in her depression. He has no remorse for what happened. He simply does not care. 

The world is full of psychopaths like this, and the problem is that many are in power to decide over the life of thousands or millions.
I believe that only empathy make a real human, and so they are not human, just humanoids.

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Can only speak for myself, cheating is cheating, be it SL or RL or whatever, and if I'm honest I'm not just blaming men, sure, you get scumbags out there but I have way to dammed many girlfriends that only see it as cheating when its their dude, they are fine with spreading it about otherwise which is just sad.

As for myself, sure, I'm married IRL and mess around in SL, but I admit, it is unfaithful and disrespectful.  Thankfully my RL hubby has his reasons for letting me do it presuming I'm discreet about it.  

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3 hours ago, Maik971 said:

The world is full of psychopaths like this, and the problem is that many are in power to decide over the life of thousands or millions.
I believe that only empathy make a real human, and so they are not human, just humanoids.

Have you no empathy for those who have no empathy?

I can imagine a day when some computers will show more empathy than some people, and challenge your definition of human.

Here's a li'l article about machine empathy...

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-empathic-robots.html

The author of that article doesn't stand the ground she claims in the title. By the end of it she states "It may be, for example, that "near enough is good enough" when it comes to everyday empathy between human and machine."

And here's an article describing the utility of algorithms in mental therapy, requiring no empathy at all...

https://psychcentral.com/lib/computerized-therapy-will-your-next-therapist-be-a-computer/

People have become addicted to computer games. It's no leap to imagine them becoming addicted to computer therapists... or sex robots.

Or other people...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-the-name-love/201405/is-love-addiction

;-).

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44 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Have you no empathy for those who have no empathy?

I can imagine a day when some computers will show more empathy than some people, and challenge your definition of human.

Here's a li'l article about machine empathy...

https://phys.org/news/2015-11-empathic-robots.html

The author of that article doesn't stand the ground she claims in the title. By the end of it she states "It may be, for example, that "near enough is good enough" when it comes to everyday empathy between human and machine."

And here's an article describing the utility of algorithms in mental therapy, requiring no empathy at all...

https://psychcentral.com/lib/computerized-therapy-will-your-next-therapist-be-a-computer/

People have become addicted to computer games. It's no leap to imagine them becoming addicted to computer therapists... or sex robots.

Or other people...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-the-name-love/201405/is-love-addiction

;-).

I guess you will be replaced too with your software construct and nobody will know the difference.

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Since everyone lives in Different in Second life  Ether was open or poly or was long term or Short Term. But if two People Agreed to be that person Feelings can be really hurt even if in world can the heart will take time to heal.  Ether you work it out or move on. Your intuition tells you the truth. They have places if don't long term just Friend and have that company they are classy you don't have to take them home with you only if you want to.  But we are people behind these dolls they do have support groups. Or you just have to take a break. Some people Just want the company of another or just keep that way.

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10 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Have you no empathy for those who have no empathy?

 

I actually know someone in rl(sl too for that matter) that lacks the ability to develop, or have, empathy for others.  This person is absolutely NOT easy to understand, in any capacity. She's smart enough to know her limitations when it comes to having empathy for people, and avoids getting close to anyone, for that reason alone. Had I not known her since we were younger, I probably wouldn't like her, most people don't.  I have oodles of empathy for her, probably more so simply due to her own nature and shortcomings in life. She can be extremely difficult to be around at times, but other times, she seems perfectly fine and dandy. She also has no filter, and I don't just mean sometimes, I mean all the time, lol. 

 

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And now I remember why I stopped responding here and on threads like this.

Why people *intentionally hurt others by being unfaithful, knowing it's absolutely wrong, hurtful, and disrespectful, is beyond me. The vast majority of people that say their rl partner is "okay" with it..are lying through their damn teeth. They're not really ok with it, they're putting up with it, because odds are pretty damn good, they love you, and they want you to be happy, and they likely feel inadequate in the making you happy department. Respect, and cherish that love..it can disappear in the blink of an eye.  

(yes, I know, very few, not even a negligible amount of people, are actually okay with it...if you have to hide, or be discrete...they're not really okay with it, see the above point) 

Sitting here shaking my damn head...sigh.

Y'all have fun with this..I'll be sitting over on my "I'm a judgmental ass again" bench waaaaaaaay away from here from now on. People make me angry way too much in threads like this. Now's a good time as any to test out my self control

(ok, after I post this anyway)

 

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On 8/9/2017 at 8:13 AM, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

You're not JoeDex, are you Chrismaky?

 

Adorable-kittens-cats-18082611-600-602.jpg

I don't even know who that is. So no. But I'm getting the impression that people are generally not very nice on here...

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But let me share my VERY unpopular take on this whole cheating thing. Its really quite simple. If you are married or with someone in real life, you shouldn't feel the need to look for something anywhere else, and that includes virtual worlds. I don't understand the need for adding another person into the equation even IF your partner is "OK" with it. 

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I don't see a problem when the partner is okay with it. And if they're not, they have a mouth to talk with and say so. If they fail to communicate with each other, well, that almost never ends good anyways. 

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If you have a SO in RL and are emotionally involved or even just use SL to get off, you are cheating if you hide it from them. Plain and simple. If they know and are ok with it, not cheating. What our opinions on the matter are have no real bearing, however. It is between each individual and THEIR partner.

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3 hours ago, Chrismaky said:

I don't even know who that is. So no. But I'm getting the impression that people are generally not very nice on here...

What's not nice about asking a simple, direct question when I saw similarities?  Or putting an adorable kitten on the first page of a thread that could have become contentious?

Now I'm wondering if you started the thread out of a quiet hope that it would kick off. Am I allowed to do that? The view you claim is "VERY unpopular" (your emphasis) is really quite common and yet you write as though you're very defensive about it. You also said on the first page that you hadn't given your opinion because it would take too long to write it and you didn't have time, then when you did you said it was very simple and only used a short paragraph.

Do you see why some of us have questions about your intentions here? Your actions have proven confusing.

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2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 What our opinions on the matter are have no real bearing, however. It is between each individual and THEIR partner.

^^^ This

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(prepare for a patented "DG Wall-O-Text" .. and here you thought it was safe to enter the Forums again. What follows are my personal opinions and since they are free, chances are good they're worth every penny too.)

On 8/9/2017 at 8:22 AM, Phil Deakins said:

Someone in the other thread made an excellent statement. Something like, if it needs to be hidden, then it's cheating.

At the very top level, I agree with this opinion. But real-life is seldom so black and white .. especially when it comes to humans. In any working relationship there are all forms of cheating. They can range from simple things such as "who ate my cookies" to more impactful forms such as adultery. A very common "cheat" involves communal monies. One or both partners may hide money from the other partner, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for bad. How it affects you, your partner and your relationship is something that seems not only fluid (changing over time and with circumstances) but also uniquely personal to each relationship. So to label someone a "Cheater" and carve a giant red "A" on their forehead from outside the relationship is overly presumptive and can lead to some real damage in unintended ways.

Speaking from a purely personal (me, myself, and I) perspective, SL Relationships can be incredibly beneficial, satisfying and tormenting. I have had RL relationships with people I knew before I came to SL, after I came to SL and totally disconnected from SL. I have also had SL-only relationships that ranged from strictly virtual to including some elements of RL. (Pics, phone, skype. etc.)

There was a time when I could easily compartmentalize them. I could even engage in more than one at a time. I could do so both with and without full disclosure to my RL wife. Those relationships fed an appetite within me that could not be satisfied in the traditional "proper way". They came and went depending on my personal desires and my various other commitments and limitations.

For me (and I suspect for most others as well) those relationships carried a "Guilt" burden as well. However it would be wrong to assume the weight of that guilt was directly proportional to the RL-to-SL ratio. I won't attempt to describe my internal calculations. Suffice to say each unique relationship has its own unique level of guilt.

I will though take the time to explain one component of that calculation: How much pleasure and satisfaction was derived by my trysting partner. I have never been one to engage in one-sided relationships. Whether that one side was all for my benefit or all for the benefit of the other. If it wasn't something that gave us both pleasure in roughly equal amounts then it either never started or ended quickly.

And therein is, I believe, the secret sauce of SL relationships: What makes them start and what makes them last and grow. And ultimately fail too. Just like RL relationships, they must satisfy the desires and needs of both parties. When they become unbalanced, when outside forces cause changes in the mutual benefits, when time or boredom or illness or a multitude of other factors get folded in, SL and RL relationships can fall apart and can even become toxic (and sadly sometimes even fatal).

To my mind, declaring an SL relationship wrong based on its "Cheating Quotient" is short-sighted and ultimately incorrect. Further, to assert that "Cheating" in an SL relationship automatically demands the end of an otherwise healthy and balanced RL relationship is imposing one's own beliefs on the actions and feelings of others. If the world didn't have enough painful examples of why THAT particular form of social bullying is wrong, I think we can at least safely say that demanding others love and like according to your own desires will plop you into emotional quicksand faster than you can counteract.

(ready for the finale?)

Is Cheating wrong? Are SL relationships, hidden from a RL partner, wrong? Yes .. and No. Your answer depends on you and is (or should be) unique only to you.

Okay. I'll shut up now. I have stupid stuff to do. *waves*

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