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25 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

People have become so desensitized by the influx of digital info that their imaginations have become stunted. It is no wonder that empathic accuracy scores are so low.

I hear you there.

It seems the key is balance. Too much screen time can be bad if not balanced with real life interaction.

My 1-year-old grandson is surfing to PBS Kids on an IPhone (I mean he can't even walk yet!). I'm not sure this is good.

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25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The Terence Mckenna video was part joke, part truth (for me)...but not sure I want to get into all that.

Virtual worlds are an art form, and humans have always utilized art to understand the world better. For example, it was only when I tried to construct a tree years ago that I realized I had not really been seeing trees. I thought I had, but was really only partially seeing them. Art causes you to focus on something so intently that new awarenesses develop.
Art is amazing...it takes us to places we didn't know existed.

I understand exactly what you are saying. Notwithstanding the subjective nature of it. I acknowledge that it can be used as an avenue to promote awareness. But to me it is becoming a substitute for Reality. It is desensitizing and can have the effect of reducing what are in Reality,and should be, very powerful experiences to the mundane. 

 

ETA lol As an example, there is a post over on the Sansar forum about a guy describing falling in VR over there. He says he was startled at first but then grew comfortable with it. Now by that I assume he meant that while he was still falling, and that very well may be the case if you are falling from like 400 feet, you sort of come to accept the visceral feeling of it, but does he still get startled every time he falls in VR like one would in reality? Further, would being now desensitized by actually falling through the use of VR now mean that when you did fall in Reality would you then not be startled by it?

Edited by Derek Torvalar

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22 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

there is a post over on the Sansar forum about a guy describing falling in VR over there. He says he was startled at first but then grew comfortable with it. Now by that I assume he meant that while he was still falling, and that very well may be the case if you are falling from like 400 feet, you sort of come to accept the visceral feeling of it, but does he still get startled every time he falls in VR like one would in reality? Further, would being now desensitized by actually falling through the use of VR now mean that when you did fall in Reality would you then not be startled by it?

lol I saw that post over there, and it's what made me go to Amazon and see how much Occulus was selling for.
I'd love to experience falling off a cliff and not feeling fear (a simulation of that of course).
I think if I fell off a cliff in RL I would keep the perspective of the difference between virtual and real however, so in this case I don't think desensitization would apply (at least not for me).

I suppose for some people a desensitization could occur for some experiences, but I more think they were desensitized to life or feelings in general before entering the virtual world.

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

lol I saw that post over there, and it's what made me go to Amazon and see how much Occulus was selling for.
I'd love to experience falling off a cliff and not feeling fear (a simulation of that of course).
I think if I fell off a cliff in RL I would keep the perspective of the difference between virtual and real however, so in this case I don't think desensitization would apply (at least not for me).

I suppose for some people a desensitization could occur for some experiences, but I more think they were desensitized to life or feelings in general before entering the virtual world.

The applicability here is obvious for the treatment of things like Phobias, PTSD etc. So there are benefits to this

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6 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

The applicability here is obvious for the treatment of things like Phobias, PTSD etc. So there are benefits to this

Yes I really did lessen my fear of spiders due to some of my Halloween activities here. I'm not sure my store customers appreciated it though, as masses of black spiders descended upon the Halloween section of my store one year.

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes I really did lessen my fear of spiders due to some of my Halloween activities here. I'm not sure my store customers appreciated it though, as masses of black spiders descended upon the Halloween section of my store one year.

lol I think I remember being there for that.

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8 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Out of curiosity (and to anyone experiencing very long load times), what's your connection speed?

I'm with Charter Spectrum, 67 mb right now, and I'm hardwired to the router

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18 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

To be fair I really wonder how LL is going to handle custom animations in combination with VR.

What's the point of a dance animation (or any custom animation) if you can't see your own avatar?

And how is movement handled in VR while you're playing an animation?
It's going to be Vomit Machine 3000 if animations dictate your head movement.
Or maybe (probably) the VR mode will disable all avatar animations on yourself, but that could easily ruin some functionality.

There's also concern for scripters not taking VR in mind when causing avatar movement, especially the ones who don't have a headset (like myself).
I can't make sure I won't ruin someone's VR experience just because I can only script for the desktop view.

Here ya go.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/high-fidelity-announces-integration-of-htc-vive-trackers-for-full-body-motion-capture-300498819.html

VR people will use this MoCap stuff and you will be free to do animations for the regular users. Of course when the scripting is in place for those users to click on a dance ball say and choose a dance.

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8 hours ago, Derek Torvalar said:

ETA ya know, more and more I am beginning to see that VR is in actuality merely an imagination prosthesis. People have become so desensitized by the influx of digital info that their imaginations have become stunted. It is no wonder that empathic accuracy scores are so low. People have lost or are losing the ability to utilize their imaginations and therefore need the imagination amplifiers to help to try and comprehend or understand the simplest of things. I didn't say anything at the time Luna about that vid you posted about the guy talking about the internet and stuff but all the stuff he was talking about is not necessary for human understanding. 

Well said. For years, I have been tearing my hair out trying to explain human nature and basic economics to Linden Lab. All they see are GANTT charts, spreadsheets, flowcharts and blueprints. People are social creatures who seek to express themselves to others through a wide variety of cues (voice, writing style, physical appearance, clothing, jewelry, gestures, mannerisms, possessions, social status etc.). To do this, people need to be creative and, therefore, they need the tools to be creative. This is where Second Life excels. Linden Lab constructed a new social geography in which people could relate to each other in sophisticated ways. Sansar, on the other hand, is a coffee-table book: pretty pictures, but no meaningful engagement with one's fellow human beings.

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Thanks Del.

I think that what you describe is going to change however. The digital diorama of what Sansar is now is if you look at the video attached to the link in the post prior to your shows what VR mocap is going to allow in Sansar. I also mentioned somewhere else today about the facial animation stuff being incorporated which will enhance that 'connection' and 'expressive' aspect of it.

Eventually the scripting will be in place for regular PC users to interact within the Experience as well.

The question is whether LL is really prepared for the long haul. With the hope that VR becomes a household thing to make it profitable.

I have just been confirming at this point each Experience can only handle 50 Avs. Though 35 was quoted in one article. That being said one person on their forum was asking how his group of game developers are going to get payment for the game they want build in there. He was talking numbers of 500 plus customers. Not sure if he understands that it won't be possible to get that many people into your Experience, even if the damn thing is the size of the Blake Sea, as Inara Pey has said. Which mean a lot of people who paid there 39.99 or whatever to get into his game or Experience are gonna be pissed sitting on the outside.

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2 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

Experiences can be instanced, so if 500 people are using your experience they'll be in 10 or so different instances of it.

 

But does that mean if you and your group are in one instance you won't be able to interact at the same time with others in the other instances?

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Just now, Parhelion Palou said:

I'd assume so ... it would be the same as trying to interact between different experiences. No interaction between experiences.

This then would be problematic for someone trying to run a MMPORG type game there then. Maybe that is not realistic for Sansar but I am thinking terms of a large multi player rpg type game. Or even a mega club or concert experienceyou may want to share with a group of friends. Only to log in and have half your group i n one instance and the rest of your friends spread out over other instances. 

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MMORPG games have instances. The only one I've played at all recently was SWTOR ... you and a friend could be standing in the same spot but not see each other. You check to see what instance you're in, tell your friend, and she could transfer over to your instance. In that case communications was outside of the instances. I'm not sure how Sansar will handle that. LL may not have thought of it.

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@Derek Torvalar

I have watched the video and am struggling to see any value to prancing around my living room wearing all that hardware. Okay, it's early days; the hardware will shrink and replications of human gestures will improve. But it's going to take quite some time before the technology can generate a paradigm shift in human behavior. For example, why dance in my living room when I can 1) dance in a real club and 2) use my imagination and some animations in SL to accomplish 99% of the same activity? In other words, VR technology would have to improve by several scales of magnitude before it transitions from a toy to real functionality. The timescale for that is about 25-30 years. Sure, technological innovation is exponential, but if it took 100 years to go from a Model-T to a Lamborghini, it will still take 100/4 years to accomplish the same thing in VR space. The cellphone took 20 years to go from a toy to ubiquity. VR will take longer. Few companies have the chops to invest tens (hundreds) of millions over 25 years. The big names do, but Linden Lab? High Fidelity? They can't wait that long for ROI. At best, they might sell out to the big names five years down the line - not for the worlds, but for the patents - presuming newer technologies don't supplant those patents. So, it's all hype at the moment - and we all know what hype does to the reputations of companies in VR space.

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14 minutes ago, Deltango Vale said:

@Derek Torvalar

I have watched the video and am struggling to see any value to prancing around my living room wearing all that hardware. Okay, it's early days; the hardware will shrink and replications of human gestures will improve. But it's going to take quite some time before the technology can generate a paradigm shift in human behavior. For example, why dance in my living room when I can 1) dance in a real club and 2) use my imagination and some animations in SL to accomplish 99% of the same activity? In other words, VR technology would have to improve by several scales of magnitude before it transitions from a toy to real functionality. The timescale for that is about 25-30 years. Sure, technological innovation is exponential, but if it took 100 years to go from a Model-T to a Lamborghini, it will still take 100/4 years to accomplish the same thing in VR space. The cellphone took 20 years to go from a toy to ubiquity. VR will take longer. Few companies have the chops to invest tens (hundreds) of millions over 25 years. The big names do, but Linden Lab? High Fidelity? They can't wait that long for ROI. At best, they might sell out to the big names five years down the line - not for the worlds, but for the patents - presuming newer technologies don't supplant those patents. So, it's all hype at the moment - and we all know what hype does to the reputations of companies in VR space.

I concur.

I have stated elsewhere that I am in no way interested in VR myself due to impaired vision in one eye so I have no fear of ever prancing around in my living room with a bucket on my head and straps  etc on my limbs to dance in Sansar. lol Mainly of course I don't dance in RL at all anyway either alone or at a club. And any activity I do enjoy, like riding my bike, golf or hockey I actually want to do and not approximate virtually. So I am not holding my breath for VR or Sansar. Being in the Reality Business I tend to take the view of anything related to online activities with a certain detached scrutiny.

Edited by Derek Torvalar

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16 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

have no fear of ever prancing around in my living room with a bucket on my head and straps  etc on my limbs

But what a delightful picture you paint :D

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Just now, Pamela Galli said:

But what a delightful picture you paint :D

Well truth be told I do sometimes do that but sans bucket and clothes, and only  in straps if you want me to. ;P

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5 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

MMORPG games have instances. The only one I've played at all recently was SWTOR ... you and a friend could be standing in the same spot but not see each other. You check to see what instance you're in, tell your friend, and she could transfer over to your instance. In that case communications was outside of the instances. I'm not sure how Sansar will handle that. LL may not have thought of it.

It has already been suggested (by users) that there be a "group" system so avatars in the same group won't get separated by instances.
I'm pretty sure they're aware of the downsides of instancing, even without us having to remind them. Whether they'll prioritize that or not is another concern.

As for VR, I think it's fantastic for shut-ins who would never go to a club let alone a golf track but still want to do those things in the comfort and privacy of their own home. Or, simply for people who are interested in places that are unrealistically elaborate or just plain impossible to experience in real life.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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I've visited Sansar twice now. The first time was 2 days ago, and all I did was walk around a bit, which was awkward in itself, but I can get used to it, and go through a sort of portal. I couldn't turn around and go back though. I was there about 20 minutes or so and I left feeling somewhat unimpressed. That's not necessarily a bad thing, because it's easy to be unimpressed with something new that I haven't yet got used to.

My second visit was yesterday. I'd read that I can create some free 'experiences', so I decided to create one. I chose the Highlands basic, and I didn't do anything to it at all. I just accepted it as it was and wandered around in it. I soon went off the edge (I'd read that you get stopped at the edge, but not in this one), and there was no way for me to get back under my own steam. After about a minute, I was suddenly back at the starting point. I thought that edge arrangement was bad. I left after a while - still unimpressed, but I did come up with some opinions. They are only my opinions.

Based solely on my 2 very short visits, and what I've read in these threads, it seems to me that LL has taken the wrong direction. They've been at it for about 4 years and, if that's all they've managed to produce in that time, it's a very poor showing. They took the wrong direction when they decided to major on VR. I don't believe that VR will take off en-masse for quite some time - too late to make the Sansar project a success. But they seem to be aiming mainly for that market, and accommodating non-VR users almost as an extra. For Sansar to be a success, it should be the other way round, imo.

Whilst Sansar's graphics are a little better than SL's, they are way behind UE4's graphics, so there's a lot of catching up to do there.

It seems to me that, in 4 years, LL has managed to produce a system for basic environments - like the basic land in SL - but with precious little means of making changes, and virtually nothing for visitors to do, other than walk around in it. By the time they finally produce the end product, it'll be years out of date. Initially LL said that, "If we don't don't do it, someone else will". Well, I believe that someone else has already sort of done it with engines like UE4, and, after 4 years or so of development, LL are still only part way there.

I say again that those are only my opinions that are based on very little time in Sansar, and what I've read here in this forum.

I remain very unimpressed.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Whilst Sansar's graphics are a little better than SL's, they are way behind UE4's graphics, so there's a lot of catching up to do there.

I want to elaborate a bit on that. UE4 was launched in 2014, shortly after Sansar was first announced, and it took a while for people to realize what that program is capable of. It is understandable that LL didn't take it into account when they started working on Sansar. And since they misjudged the time it would take so badly, it is sort'a understandable that they didn't take into account how much other VR engines would improve in the meantime.

But they overlooked the Unigine Benchmark virtual realities too. Those benchmarks are parts of the Phoronix Test Suite and any software company ought to know about that one, especially if they are in the virtual reality business. The last two benchmark environments were released in 2009 and 2013 respectively and if the Sansar developers didn't take a look at those very early in the process, they didn't do their homework. If they looked at them, they must have realized they had to do better than them to justify the boastful claims about Sansar's performance.

They didn't. Even the eight year old Heaven Benchmark has better graphics and (apparently) better graphics performance than Sansar (although of course not anywhere near UE4).

That is really not understandable and I can't see any explanation or excuse for it.

---

Edit: I'm not sure if anybody at Linden Lab reads all these Sansar discussions on the forums (I actually feel sorry for them if they have to ;)) but maybe if I try to page ... @Soft Linden perhaps ^_^

I don't suppose my words count for much in this but my best advice to Linden Lab is take it down for now. You got a lot of valuable feedback and data and that is good. But keeping Sansar live as it is now will ony interfere with the developing work and of course it's already a marketing disaster and won't get any better. Then rerelase it when it's ready and not before then.

Edited by ChinRey
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I've been invited to use Sansar a few months ago. The navigation is so weird, maybe because I am not a VR user yet. My aim there is to create, but I'm still not impressed yet. Maybe soon. And I am hoping that SL will always exist.

Btw, the thread is way too long, 8 pages and I haven't read all of it completely. 

I see that Maya users (Yes! Also Maya LT) will benefit from uploading to Sansar. It supports .fbx files! I don't know about .obj and .dae , though

Edited by Char Lemon

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