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16 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

In any case, LL doesn't seem to have made any attempt to tighten up IP protection from SL to Sansar so I think it's a safe bet that the amount of copybotting, and IP and copyright violations will be about the same in both places fairly soon.

I really wasn't looking that hard -- just missing a hint of things I would be looking for :D.   And agreed it seems like the rules will be overlooked there also. It does seem that the Linden Lab TOS has been "loosened up" a bit with the new rewrite. A friend who believe it or not read through 600 page of legalize on a highway bypass issue mentioned that.  I have tried to kinda block all that August 2013 stuff out of my mind's memo pad so I can't say for sure. 

 

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2 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

They look nice in SL too, I use them a lot. Reid makes wonderful plants.

No he doesn't. As far as I know, he's never made any plant meshes at all - he's a freebie reseller, not a content creator.

Edited by ChinRey

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10 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I really wasn't looking that hard -- just missing a hint of things I would be looking for :D.   And agreed it seems like the rules will be overlooked there also.

I can confirm that now. There are meshes taken straight from the Daz3D Marketplace in the Sansar store. Those are clear IP violations of course and there's a very good chance Daz3D is going to notice and react.

 

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3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

No he doesn't. As far as I know, he's never made any plant meshes at all - he's a freebie reseller, not a content creator.

Really? Where do these freebie models come from? They're tighter than most stuff I see from experienced LL content creators, including the "big names".

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13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Really? Where do these freebie models come from? They're tighter than most stuff I see from experienced LL content creators, including the "big names".

His best known and most popular plants were made by a French 3D artist who calls himself Nobiax at DeviantArt and Yughues at OpenGameArt. Reid Parkin may have picked them up at either site or also at Outworldz where they've reposted lots of OpenGameArt content.

13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

They're tighter than most stuff I see from experienced LL content creators, including the "big names".

Oh yes, Yughues Nobiax is in a different league than any of the well known "big names" in SL plants - except Nadine Reverie and Sasaya Kayo of course.

Edited by ChinRey
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3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

No he doesn't. As far as I know, he's never made any plant meshes at all - he's a freebie reseller, not a content creator.

Rya Nitely = Reid Parkin. I've been a content creator since 2007. Firstly my boats, off sims, stone steps and even some plants etc. I have spent so much time with my head stuck in Maya and photoshop, that I had to give up my full time job. I wouldn't take this risk if I was simply a freebie seller. But, I do sell some freebies under Reid Parkin. However, most of the plants are my own creations. My other store is Tuff Old Boats since 2008, so there's proof I am a creator, LOL. The hydrangea took over a month to create. The new hedges v2 took months as well and are now my own work, with only one significantly  modified texture from the original freebie pack. So, yes I am a content creator, rest assured.

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and I have written permission in the form of email communication from Nobiax giving me permission to sell his plants. I also donated $US190 to him, which he appreciated.

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2 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

Rya Nitely = Reid Parkin. I've been a content creator since 2007.

I believe you if you say so. But in that case you really, really ought to differentiate clearly between the two parts of your business. For your own sake.

 

Just now, Rya Nitely said:

and I have written permission in the form of email communication from Nobiax giving me permission to sell his plants.

You don't actually need that since he released them under a CC0 open source license. ;)

 

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Interesting @ChinRey, It's certainly incredibly difficult for anyone to stay on top of what items are original, what are uploaded from other sites with permission, what are without permission, and what are straight-out-ripped-or-stolen - and from that point making one's own descisions based on ethics.

From what I saw, Sansar is off to a dubious start.

But in terms of SL, checking what Yughues writes on his DeviantArt page I am not sure his work is actually CC0 as you mention, as opposed to a CC-BY (like) license in agreement with what you suggest.

Quote

Why do I do & share for free my ressources ?
There are people who are able to make games but who are not good at modelling or texturing and they don't necessarely want to pay for it (students & indies). If they are honest & respectful they give me credits and if they want to redistribute (for free) them for specific softwares (UDK, Unity,...) they just ask for it.

What about thief ? It's Internet.
Don't want it to be stolen ? Don't put it on Internet!
Deal with it!

Copyright ? Just an other idea very highly deeply raped by big *****ty lobbies & patent trolls for their own profits. Meh. =|

I've deleted so many things over the last decade, objects which I find out are stolen or resales of full-perms. A recent example was some shorts for the Jake body, inspecting the full perm showed a different creator to the marketplace. On contacting the creator I found the others were relisted full-perms, in violation of the license. Deleted and repurchased from the real creator.

Similar with a certain unnamed maker of airplanes, I've deleted work of his after learning he uploaded without authorisation. I considered doing it for a very well known helicopter maker after she made a similar mistake, using mesh that wasn't original, but to her great credit she put in a lot of effort to rectify the issue once she was informed.

In another case I found a creator selling the OpenCollar scripts nomod and without the required license statement, I spent a few days helping them become compliant with the GPL. The same will happen with AvSitter now being MPL, it will be crucial to check all furniture to see if the AvSitter scripts are Code Violet if NoMod or full perm otherwise. Selling those scripts NoMod will likely be a license violation.

I won't even get into all those people using the iPhone as their HUD, or worse, as a product. Ugh.

I used to work for (c) Disney, so I am likely more aware than most. For example I always pay for vector art, textures and fonts I use in my sims. One of the major textures in my regions is a based on a photo taken by someone else. I paid US$80 to use this one texture and informed them it was for SL. Yesterday I paid US$20 to license an SVG and US$40 to license a font for a new sim I am building. Thousands of dollars over the years for fonts, and artwork. I could do this myself, Illustrator isn't hard to use, but time is a factor.

None of this stuff I license to use is ever resold in any fashion, but how could I ethically apply a texture I didn't make, or create a club-logo using a font I didn't have the rights to use? Yet, almost everyone else in SL would, I am positive, use fonts for their store and not realise in almost all cases they must pay the foundry for commercial use.

BUT, and this is the crunch, even I miss things, and I am sure you do too Chinrey!

I think Reid did the right thing in providing a donation to Yughues, and also has created the hydangeas at the root of this, and others. I don't think I have an ethical issue using any of those plants in my sims, although I will provide additional donations to Yughes now. And I will happily keep plugging those hydrangeas, because they are lovely, as you yourself first pointed out.

But yes, a sign somewhere in Reid's store giving credit for non-originals would be an honourable thing.

 

13 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

The hydrangea took over a month to create.

The only other person who created Hydrangeas that are worth using is Jian, I often put both in a display. Jian's behind and yours in front.

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3 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

But in terms of SL, checking what Yughues writes on his DeviantArt page I am not sure his work is actually CC0 as you mention, as opposed to a CC-BY (like) license in agreement with what you suggest.

The early works he posted at DeviantArt and OpenGameArrt are CC0. Yes, from his DeviantArt page and also comments elsewhere and I do get the impression he didn't really understand what a CC0 license actually meant and I think he regretted it later. The license is irrevocable though. It's a common mistake unfortunately, I've certainly made it myself several times.

Yughues' later works are for sale at his online store and not CC0.

 

3 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

But yes, a sign somewhere in Reid's store giving credit for non-originals would be an honourable thing.

I think it is also the sensible thing to do in the long run for two reasons.

One reason is your reputation. Over at that other SL forum we're not allowed to name here, there's a "Hall of Shame" list of known copybotters. You really don't want to be on that list but Reid Parkins is. (That's where I learned about it btw. I knew both his and Yughues' plants before but didn't make the connection until I saw his name there.)

The other reason is your safety. What if it turns out that the person who posted the content for free didn't have the right to do it? If you've been open about your source right from the start, you can claim good faith and wash your hands off the case. If you've been passing it on as your own work, you may end up in deep s**t.

Edited by ChinRey
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4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Over at that other SL forum we're not allowed to name here, there's a "Hall of Shame" list of known copybotters.

Just for kicks, let's see if links to that other forum are still verboten here. The thread which I suppose is being referenced here is this one which seems not to have a post since December, whatever that means.

I think I agree that it would be better if the Reid Parkin brand could characterize the origins of its various products because otherwise the items that are original are under a cloud (even though the sourced items are perfectly legitimate).

But, you know, because this is all legit, it's a business decision about what's best for a brand. I mean, as a customer, I've bought some Reid Parkin plants without ever knowing about the mentions in that thread, and most customers won't even know about the thread itself.

(That thread has kept me from buying a lot of content, but I gotta say, it was a sad day when I removed all the Arcadia Asylum stuff I could find on my parcels.)

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40 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

..

but I gotta say, it was a sad day when I removed all the Arcadia Asylum stuff I could find on my parcels.)

That was a different thread actually and I was sooooo not going to mention her! But since you did, she's a very good example for the last paragraph of my previous post.

For those who don't know the story, Arcadia Asylum (aka Aley Resident, Aley Arai and Lora Lemon) is probably Second Life builder legend no. 1. She made a large number of amazing big and small works and was also a strong influence on many later builders (me included). But she was a bit careless. She occasionally included parts others had given her full perm in her builds and it turned out some of these items were commercial builds gone astray. So she was permabanned three years ago and her reputation as a builder was ruined in many people's eyes, not just Qie's. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Maybe. Just don't let it happen to you.

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1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I like how this has gone so far off-topic!

Sorry about that ^_^

 

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Catching up, "Sansar got no permissions".  Got it!

Judging by what we've seen in the Sansar Store so far, it seems to be about the same as in SL. Does that count as "no permissions"?

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:19 AM, Klytyna said:

The sale of 3d content has always been rife with people who just can't or won't accept how digital item pricing works.

Oh great...is there nothing in this world without high drama! :(

From just a glance, looks like Turbosquid takes 50% unless you sell exclusively through them in which case they take only 20%.
This was the article that had me concerned:
  https://web.archive.org/web/20090819141033/http://www.binaryiris.com/node/29

I wonder what the percentage deal will be when/if Turbosquid pairs with Sansar.

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:49 AM, Chic Aeon said:

I actually haven't read the CURRENT Sansar TOS. I was certainly going to before a made an account, so I can't really say. The CREATOR PREVIEW TOS (I am thinking it was a Terms of Use then but you get the idea) and I did not see eye to eye at all. I read a middle section three times trying to convince myself it actually didn't say what I thought it said. In the end I could not refute what "I" thought it said and never agreed to it or logged in. Some folks that were also invited back then (maybe January -- I am not sure really) told me they didn't think it was legal anyway so weren't worried about it and others admitting clicking through without reading. Actually while it was THERE on the sign up sheet, it was very easy TO click through (again, that was THEN; have no idea about now). 

So THAT is why I am urging people to actually read the TOS.  Always a good plan. 

Yeah I tried to read that and went into an alternate state of consciousness and passed out ;0
Very confusing...seems to say we retain our IP but they can do whatever they want with our stuff.

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On 8/6/2017 at 1:40 PM, Chic Aeon said:

It wasn't all that clear from the articles and forums that I have read if "anyone" can upload mesh (say that they bought from Turbosquid through the TS website? Or do you have to go for the creator pack at $9.95 in order to upload and sell?  Just wondering if people could upload their own things or if that "creator membership" thing is part of the charge for uploading. 

I don't think you do, but I haven't tried uploading anything of my own yet...

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3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Judging by what we've seen in the Sansar Store so far, it seems to be about the same as in SL. Does that count as "no permissions"?

Oops my bad, I was going off of reading their forums, not actual knowledge. :-)

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On 08/08/2017 at 1:28 PM, Callum Meriman said:

I think Reid did the right thing in providing a donation to Yughues, and also has created the hydangeas at the root of this, and others.

I'm raising this again to address the advice here. Firstly, the hydrangea are completely my own work, and nothing to do with Nobiax.

 

On 08/08/2017 at 1:28 PM, Callum Meriman said:

But yes, a sign somewhere in Reid's store giving credit for non-originals would be an honourable thing.

I've deleted Nobiax's plants from Reid's store as it's really not worth the controversy. I'm keeping them inworld, free, because people like them. The new hedges v2 are now my own work, as well as all other plants in Reid's Store, and therefore no need to give credit.

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1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

I'm raising this again to address the advice here. Firstly, the hydrangea are completely my own work, and nothing to do with Nobiax.

I've deleted Nobiax's plants from Reid's store as it's really not worth the controversy. I'm keeping them inworld, free, because people like them. The new hedges v2 are now my own work, as well as all other plants in Reid's Store, and therefore no need to give credit.

Congrats. You survived a content piranha attack. I should start a fund for victims.

Meanwhile LL allows sales of major brands that no creator can possibly afford the licensing fees of, nor meet the minimum sales threshold in those types of contracts. Because umm, DMCA. Not that a private company can't set their own policy to request proof of licensing or anything.

Glad to hear you're doing ok after taking the plunge though and going full time. I know you were pondering that for quite a while.

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15 minutes ago, DartAgain said:

Congrats. You survived a content piranha attack. I should start a fund for victims.

LoloLOL :)

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I pulled my email today and by golly there was an email from Sansar w/ a subject line of "Thanks for Creating your Profile" and giving me my Avatar name -- for the account/profile that I created over a week ago.

Now that's some timely communication

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Thought I would resurrect this popular thread when I spotted some "possibly new" info on the main Sansar blog page. I made a screenshot but likely best not to post. If you go look you will see that PC is listed ahead of "Oculus Rift, and HTC Vive users" in the SHARE WITH YOUR AUDIENCE section of the entry page.

So perhaps they did pay attention to all the comments from visitors who MIGHT have wanted to be there but had no interest at all in VR gear OR didn't have a machine that could support it even if they were interested.

A thought!

I am still waiting for that extra Creator Terms to change or go away :D.  By then, many of the complaints may have been addressed. 

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I came to SL from IMVU and as far as I understand it Sansar is a 3D Virtual IMVU with the possibility to walk around and sometimes interact with objects. ( at least for now) If you wanted to create in IMVU you´d had to use external programs like Maya to make mesh and upload it. Sounds kinda really boring and I LOVE SL and how one can interact and create in this connected world. I have an invite for Sansar and I will check it out, but I think SL is so awesome plus it´s a goldmine for LL, since it´s set up and running and  so I hope they will not ever pull the plug on SL and hopefully further advance it.  If Sansar turns out to be cool, make it a parallel thing, but not at the costs of SL. Besides that, VR sets still suck immensely and will at the soonest start to work and be affordable from the 2nd generation on.

So in conclusion I have to say that, IF Sansar will be  some day go the way of SL in the way of creating and interacting, great, I´m in but if it will go in the direction of IMVU where you basically just shopped til you dropped to have stuff to set up in your rooms, I´m out.

But in any case I will stick with SL, because I truly love it and I think it´s greatest online world EVER and I met so many nice people there, it would be a shame to just pull the plug.

I wish LL good luck with Sansar and I hope it´ll be as awesome as SL (in it´s own way)

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