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9 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well that is good to know, but kinda makes my point. If I type in "Blueberry", this is what I get.

 <snipped pic>

Jeans got NOTHING and shirt got this:

 <snipped pic>

The hydrangeas look nice. 

That is actually quite hillarious, in a sad and dysfunctional sort of way

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Maybe they are giving the newbies a chance to get things onto the MP before it's flooded with creations from the 2000 skilled mesh creators who have been testing Sansar. And then... Turbosquid.

I would really like to know more about this Turbosquid partnering. They had a bad reputation in the past, charging way too much of a percentage. Not sure what the current status is.

What do you think about the TOS in Sansar, Chic? I know you mentioned it before. Is it worse than the TOS here in SL in some way (for creators)?

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I would really like to know more about this Turbosquid partnering. They had a bad reputation in the past, charging way too much of a percentage. Not sure what the current status is.

"Too much of a %" is subjective, back 10-15 years ago, the big areas for 3d content sales were places like Turbosquid for 'high end 3d app content" (tries not to burst out laughing) and the "low end content" for hobbyist apps like Poser/Daz Studio/Bryce/Vue etc., tended to be on smaller specific brokerage sites like Daz3d, Renderosity, RuntimeDNA, PoserPros, etc.

Typically the brokerage rates on most of those sites was 50%. One site specified that not only was their cut 50%, but any sales or promotions came out of YOUR end of the sale not theirs, so if your $10 content went on sale at 20% off by THEIR decision, you got $3, and they got $5.

Turbosquid... That's another story, a lot of the content on TS was hidiously overpriced, partly by people trying to counteract the brokerage fees, and partly because many assumed that the customer base were '3d professionals spending company money on tax deductable expenses'.

I recall a discussion in the ArtZone chatroom, between myself and some talented brokered artists, vs this 1 brokered 'artiste with an e on the end' whose last 'product' had been a pack of 6 flat colour filled seamless textures with auto flood filled white polka dots, took her maybe 5 mins to make the whole pack, she was asking $5 for it.

The discussion started when I laughingly pointed out an item on one of the brokerage sites costing $5, that was inferior in every way to FREEBIES I had posted earlier. Ms Polka-dots angrily announced that "All content offered for sale is automatically worth every penny of the asking price because reasons and hidden features". In reply to this, another brokered artist, a highly talented 3d mesh maker specialising in realistic landscape meshes, posted a link to an item he found on TurboSquid.

A low poly untextured dog turd, costing... $500

I found somebody charging $500 for a 'procedural perfect sphere for 3d application X", which amused me as the application in question can make those at the click of a button, think of the SL equivalent, somebody offering to sell you a sphere prim for $500 US.

The sale of 3d content has always been rife with people who just can't or won't accept how digital item pricing works.
 

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RE: Pricing

I saw the most expensive item over on the store there yesterday.

A chaise lounge for S$5000. I think it was the first item to break the S$1000 mark.

And as for TS I have been perusing the site, specifically the Freebie section, and found a lot of those are so high poly as to be bordering on insane. One tree for example was like over 300K poly and over 300K vertices. Now I am no expert in this by any stretch but to even to me that sounds absurd and would certainly not be an economical use of render weight.

And well for the priced items, I have spent 2500L$ (10 US) on a house and more but they were more or less functional and I found none of the houses in that price range were animated. Which is neither here nor there at this point cos you can't have that in Sansar yet anyway. I really can't see myself using TS or any other modelling site just as I didn't use any animation houses to do the animations I wanted as the price was prohibitive to my involvement which will remain nothing more than a hobby. At least until I retire.

Edited by Derek Torvalar

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43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Maybe they are giving the newbies a chance to get things onto the MP before it's flooded with creations from the 2000 skilled mesh creators who have been testing Sansar. And then... Turbosquid.

I would really like to know more about this Turbosquid partnering. They had a bad reputation in the past, charging way too much of a percentage. Not sure what the current status is.

What do you think about the TOS in Sansar, Chic? I know you mentioned it before. Is it worse than the TOS here in SL in some way (for creators)?

I actually haven't read the CURRENT Sansar TOS. I was certainly going to before a made an account, so I can't really say. The CREATOR PREVIEW TOS (I am thinking it was a Terms of Use then but you get the idea) and I did not see eye to eye at all. I read a middle section three times trying to convince myself it actually didn't say what I thought it said. In the end I could not refute what "I" thought it said and never agreed to it or logged in. Some folks that were also invited back then (maybe January -- I am not sure really) told me they didn't think it was legal anyway so weren't worried about it and others admitting clicking through without reading. Actually while it was THERE on the sign up sheet, it was very easy TO click through (again, that was THEN; have no idea about now). 

So THAT is why I am urging people to actually read the TOS.  Always a good plan. 

Oddly a friend who pretty much isn't in SL any longer logged in at the MOMENT (funny how things are) that they just put up the latest Second Life TOS. He read it (we used to be partners *wink* so have similar habits business-wise anyway) and thought that it seemed to be more lenient for creators (that previous if-you-didn't-make-it-yourself-don't-upload theme that was never enforced).   I have to go back and reread that part again, but it could be BECAUSE Sansar is going to welcome Turbosquid and they are [still] trying to keep their TOS uniform across platforms.  An interesting thought. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

RE: Pricing

I saw the most expensive item over on the store there yesterday.

A chaise lounge for S$5000. I think it was the first item to break the S$1000 mark.

And as for TS I have perusing the site,specifically the Freebie section, and found a lot of those are so high poly as to be bordering on insane. One tree for example was like over 300K poly and over 300K vertices. Now I am no expert in this by any stretch but to even to me that sounds absurd and would certainly not be an economical use of render weight.

And well for the priced items, I have spent 2500L$ (10 US) on house and more but they were more or less functional and I found none of the house in that price range were animated. Which is neither here nor there at this point cos you can't have that in Sansar yet anyway. I really can't see myself using TS or any other modelling site just as I didn't use any animation houses to do the animations I wanted as the price was prohibitive to my involvement which will remain nothing more than a hobby. At least until I retire.

Back in the earlier days of the store it apparently (never there remember, just chatty) had things people could use on their plots rather than making. Obviously some of the creators are NOT "game asset developers" and this could easily be what is causing those 30 minute downloads. We have the same problems in SL of course. 

I will say this ONE MORE TIME LOL -- as I have said it often. Cloud Party did an exceptionally good job keeping things running smoothly and quickly (it was web based and ran in Chrome). Each plot of land (sort of four sim size if I remember correctly, like a 2x2 var in Opensim) had only so many high LOD items, so much Texture download, etc. SO, if you wanted to build highly detailed, high poly house, you could BUT the furniture would mostly need to be very low poly or you would run out of -- well let's call them assets as I can't remember now (2012) what they were called. 

I guess you could have actually used baked textures (they way I do now with lots of stuff on a 1024 texture, not just a pillow LOL) but mostly it was tiling textures there. I of course had lots less skills then. I could likely do a better job with my worlds now. Still I made some pretty cool stuff there. 

It actually might be fun to try -- down the road and depending on what that TOS says then -- to see how much you could get in a fast loading experience. But its hard to say right now if the platform will really be entwined or very much stand alone experiences. Either way, loading faster is  definitely going to need to be a priority. 

 

OK. Back to work for me :D.

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25 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

A chaise lounge for S$5000

A lot of people make that mistake. Probably the creator of it was the one who made the mistake.

It's a chaise longue - not a chaise lounge. It's french for long chair, and not a chair for lounging in :)

I used to sell chaise longues and a number of people thought they'd tell me that I'd made a spelling mistake lol.

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10 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

A lot of people make that mistake. Probably the creator of it was the one who made the mistake.

It's a chaise longue - not a chaise lounge. It's french for long chair, and not a chair for lounging in :)

I used to sell chaise longues and a number of people thought they'd tell me that I'd made a spelling mistake lol.

I don't have link to it at hand but in reality I would say it is more of a settee anyway. But wth do I know, just gimme a chair for gods sake.lol

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Just a brief visit, not rejoining the discussion in any way! :P

53 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

One tree for example was like over 300K poly and over 300K vertices. Now I am no expert in this by any stretch but to even to me that sounds absurd and would certainly not be an economical use of render weight.

It depends on what else is slowing the gpu down of course, but in Second Life a good rule is to have no more than 300,000 active triangles in any scene at any given time. There is no reason to believe that Sansar can handle more active polys than Second Life but note the word "active" in this. Sansar should have better simplification routines than Second Life so it should be able to get rid of more of the overhead of suprefluous data that adds so much to the load in SL:

Edited by ChinRey

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I have a question while my "vat stands" are baking  (oh the joys). It wasn't all that clear from the articles and forums that I have read if "anyone" can upload mesh (say that they bought from Turbosquid through the TS website? Or do you have to go for the creator pack at $9.95 in order to upload and sell?  Just wondering if people could upload their own things or if that "creator membership" thing is part of the charge for uploading. 

 

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13 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well ONE "promise" was that our avatar names would migrate over

I created an account in order to save my name there.... just in case.  However, I went to create an account for my primary alt and realized that since the email is the login, I have to create her account with a new email -- unlike here in SL where both of the accounts use the same email. 

That also now makes me curious as to whether I could have 2 accounts that use the same PayPal account.

ETA:  I guess the question is now whether both accounts can use the same credit card, since you MUST specify a credit card for payment and can only use PayPal for Process Credit.  I honestly don't like that idea - I want to use PayPal for my payments.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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4 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

I did that yesterday too, @LittleMe Jewell.  It looks like anyone can have my avatar name, tho.  Sort of like display names in SL.  At least there is still a unique name even if it cannot have spaces.

Yeah, I guess it is no different if lots of SL folks want to change their display name to 'LittleMe Jewell'.  Take heart in the fact that currently the name cannot be changed, so unless someone else creates an account setting their name to 'Rhonda Huntress', they won't be able to change it to that for a while.

I don't like the part about the email though.  I have recently started consolidating a lot of my email accounts and don't like having to go create a new one again.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell

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45 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I have a question while my "vat stands" are baking  (oh the joys). It wasn't all that clear from the articles and forums that I have read if "anyone" can upload mesh (say that they bought from Turbosquid through the TS website? Or do you have to go for the creator pack at $9.95 in order to upload and sell?  Just wondering if people could upload their own things or if that "creator membership" thing is part of the charge for uploading. 

 

I believe, merely believe mind you, that at this point you need not be paying for a creator account to upload your stuffs to the Store to sell as LL takes 15% of the sale. So they are getting a cut.

Selling stuff from TS on their would depend on the license of the stuff you bought from them. From what I have seen there are personal use only licenses which would mean you can't resell of course. And because talks are on with some sort of relationship between TS and LL this is still a grey area. I haven't tried to do that yet but have been looking at TS for personal use stuff which will be fine I think.

Someone on the Forums over there opened a discussion regarding stuff like this of people ripping stuff to bring into Sansar to sell and she pointed to a couple of instances where this is going on now and wants stricter controls. Not sure how this will all play out but definitely going to be an issue needing to be resolved.

Edited by Derek Torvalar

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41 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I created an account in order to save my name there.... just in case.  However, I went to create an account for my primary alt and realized that since the email is the login, I have to create her account with a new email -- unlike here in SL where both of the accounts use the same email. 

That also now makes me curious as to whether I could have 2 accounts that use the same PayPal account.

ETA:  I guess the question is now whether both accounts can use the same credit card, since you MUST specify a credit card for payment and can only use PayPal for Process Credit.  I honestly don't like that idea - I want to use PayPal for my payments.

Well not too long ago it was said officially that there would only be ONE account although you could have alts.  Whether that turns out to be the actual plan I don't know. Since I wasn't planning an Army of Alts I wasn't paying too much attention.  Back in the olden days -- like ten years or more you actually paid $9.95 (they like that number) to get a "legal" alt. You could have five legal alts. They were all connected to your main account (this in SL :D). Getting confusing. 

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48 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I created an account in order to save my name there.... just in case.  However, I went to create an account for my primary alt and realized that since the email is the login, I have to create her account with a new email -- unlike here in SL where both of the accounts use the same email. 

That also now makes me curious as to whether I could have 2 accounts that use the same PayPal account.

ETA:  I guess the question is now whether both accounts can use the same credit card, since you MUST specify a credit card for payment and can only use PayPal for Process Credit.  I honestly don't like that idea - I want to use PayPal for my payments.

I and others have filed tickets or requests for this and change is in the works.

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12 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

I believe, believe, that at this point you need not be paying for a creator account to upload your stuffs to the Store to sell as LL takes 15% of the sale. So they are getting a cut.

No selling stuff from TS on their would depend on the license of the stuff you bought from them. From what I have seen there are personal use only licenses which would mean you can't resell of course.

Someone on the Forums over there opened a discussion regarding stuff like this of people ripping stuff to bring into Sansar to sell and she pointed to a couple of instances where this is going on now and wants stricter controls. Not sure how this will all play out but definitely going to be an issue needing to be resolved.

I went over just now and did find some royalty free use anyway you want including games items. They were expensive of course for what you got :D.  Since Ebbe bought and uploaded the Golden Gate Bridge in the beginning of the project I figured that SOME must be legal to use.

 

I saw some stuff on the Sansar Market that looked pretty questionable and I wasn't even try to find that kind of stuff :D

So -- off to cook lunch for company. I guess I better go over and READ that TOS and see about logging in (assuming it is close to the SL TOS :D and not like it was during testing .   Can't really keep saying "haven't been there" and still have an opinion. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I went over just now and did find some royalty free use anyway you want including games items. They were expensive of course for what you got :D.  Since Ebbe bought and uploaded the Golden Gate Bridge in the beginning of the project I figured that SOME must be legal to use.

 

I saw some stuff on the Sansar Market that looked pretty questionable and I wasn't even try to find that kind of stuff :D

So -- off to cook lunch for company. I guess I better go over and READ that TOS and see about logging in (assuming it is close to the SL TOS :D and not like it was during testing .   Can't really keep saying "haven't been there" and still have an opinion. 

 

Well the issue comes into play that it is one thing to get something from TS and sell it in the store as is, and then getting something there and putting it into your Experience and then charging to see it. Do you need to pay a royalty to the creator for making money off their creation? Perhaps that is included in the base price?

I know the person I was referring to above was really making a distinction between Creators, those that actually do the modelling and making their textures etc, and those who use mesh kits and acquire textures off the web to build pieces to sell in the store. Those individuals I got the impression from her writing were not really Creators. An attitude I ran into in SL when I started building for sale in SL in 2010 from a person I speaking with  who considered my use of full perm stuff did not constitute me being allowed to refer to myself as a Builder or Creator.

Edited by Derek Torvalar

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3 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I saw some stuff on the Sansar Market that looked pretty questionable and I wasn't even try to find that kind of stuff :D

I don't know what you mean by questionable. I had a quick look at the Sansar Market and it didn't take long to see several items that were remarkably similar to meshes I've seen at OpenGameArt, Outworldz and other open source content websites. But reselling CC0 freebies is not illegal - although it may be a bit dubious from an ethical point of view.

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24 minutes ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Well the issue comes into play that it is one thing to get something from TS and sell it in the store as is, and then getting something there and putting it into your Experience and then charging to see it. Do you need to pay a royalty to the creator for making money off their creation? Perhaps that is included in the base price?

I know the person I was referring to above was really making a distinction between Creators, those that actually do the modelling and making their textures etc, and those who use mesh kits and acquire textures off the web to build pieces to sell in the store. Those individuals I got the impression from her writing were not really Creators. An attitude I ran into in SL when I started building for sale in SL in 2010 from a person I speaking with  who considered my use of full perm stuff did not constitute me being allowed to refer to myself as a Builder or Creator.

Well I used some of Royalty free stuff in multimedia work for clients in RL. The Tubrosquid site says for that SPECIFIC license - do anything you want.  Hence the term "royalty free" :D   

 

 

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2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I don't know what you mean by questionable. I had a quick look at the Sansar Market and it didn't take long to see several items that were remarkably similar to meshes I've seen at OpenGameArt, Outworldz and other open source content websites. But reselling CC0 freebies is not illegal - although it may be a bit dubious from an ethical point of view.

:D I was just trying to be "nice" LOL.   

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2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

:D I was just trying to be "nice" LOL.   

^_^

But although reselling freebies may count as "questionable" (I'm in two minds about that myself), it's not actually illegal as long as the items were released under a CC0 license. Did you notice anything even more seriously questionable there yet?

In any case, LL doesn't seem to have made any attempt to tighten up IP protection from SL to Sansar so I think it's a safe bet that the amount of copybotting, and IP and copyright violations will be about the same in both places fairly soon.

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So that everyone knows, the TOS of SL and the TOS of Sansar go to the very same page -- the Linden Lab TOS :D.  I suspected as much when that SL TOS change happened last week or so. 

 

So if you have read the SL TOS it is the same.

There is another page you might want to read however (it is linked from the sign up form along with the privacy policy and by checking the box you interestingly are also agreeing not to file a class action suit ).

Anyway here is the page: https://www.sansar.com/terms

I will not be journeying over until Sansar is out of Creator Beta. 

So I will happily continue on with my vintage winery warehouse (coming along very nicely).

Have fun and I will still enjoy reading your comments!

 

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