Why Do The Lindens Tolerate This Kind of Griefing?

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Your responses are all known quantities and always have been conditioned on your own set of grievances, so the best thing is not to respond to you.

I don't have any grievances concerning SL or anything to with SL, including you and your blog. I have an opinion about why you suffer griefers as you do. That's all.
 

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I'll point out that prim littering, using RL information to harass inworld, impersonation, spamming with noise makers named for avatars, etc. etc. -- these are all offenses in the TOS and are actionable. They don't stop being offenses because somebody writes a blog you don't like or criticizes "too much" in your view. An offense is an offense, and the Lindens need to prosecute them, the end.

You don't need to point it out to me. I already made it clear that I agree that it's wrong. I merely pointed out why, imo, you attract such things. It's the wrongs that you do that causes it, imo.  I know that the second wrong is still wrong, regardless of the first wrong, but remember that it's the first wrong causes the second wrong.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that everything you write is wrong. What I am saying is that some things that you write are wrong; i.e. incorrect, pure imagination, jumping to wrong conclusions, etc. It's those things that get you your reputation and make you a target.

 

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

There already are bots that serve as greeters and offer the group. I don't want to have a bot like that consuming resources on the Mainland. It's one more avatar on a sim where 16 avatars already starts to ding performance. I just don't want it, it's not my preferred method.

If you don't mind me saying it, that's a ridiculous attitude. Qie suggested a perfectly good way of at least partially dealing with your problem, at least for the time being, but you won't do it because it's not your preferred method. Dear oh dear. You can do something simple to help yourself but you prefer not to. Instead, you prefer that LL does something about it. I think that just about takes the biscuit.

I'm not saying that LL shouldn't do something about it, but I am strongly criticising your choice not to help yourself, when it would so easy for you to do.

[Amanda Crisp]

From one perspective, this is hugely impacted by the ease with which Alts can be created and used for Bad Behavior.

I'm guessing that this is related to $ in two ways;

01..LL sees a financial benefit to the inworld economy by keeping "easy Alts" a going concern. Probably by keeping them available for people who want to sample "adult" areas (funded by their Premium avatar) or in the hope that this will lead them to -make- a premium avatar and spend $.

02..LL lacks the finances to procure the technology and staff to adequately police this issue.

I feel your pain. I was driven OFF my original avatar by griefers and LLs response was underwhelming.

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Pixieplumb Flanagan said:

Yanno Phil, I am slightly beginning to wonder if maybe this is a fetish thing for Prok?  I mean it's a bit left of centre, and YKINMKBYKIOK, and left is not a natural place to put Prok, but it could be?  We should not judge. (solemn face emoji)

You might be onto something there, Pixie. Something that never occured to me. Someone who puts him/herself on a higher plane by continually pointing out the flaws in others, may well see being victimsed as confirmation of their self-styled status, in that those who do wrong to him/herself are doing whatever they can to attack the knight in shining armour for outing them. You may well have hit the nail on the head

Edited July 12, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Phil Deakins]

15 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Pinging @Tommy Linden to clarify.

What an excellent use of the feature - pinging someone. I love it - and even more so since you pinged our very own superhero, SuperTom who, without delay, donned his cape and switched his undies to the outside of his pants, and flew straight in to rescue our understanding of the system

Edited July 12, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

If you don't mind me saying it, that's a ridiculous attitude. Qie suggested a perfectly good way of at least partially dealing with your problem, at least for the time being, but you won't do it because it's not your preferred method. Dear oh dear. You can do something simple to help yourself but you prefer not to. Instead, you prefer that LL does something about it. I think that just about takes the biscuit.

I'm not saying that LL shouldn't do something about it, but I am strongly criticising your choice not to help yourself, when it would so easy for you to do.

I have to agree with this as well. If you can't be bothered to use any of the currently available tools, why should developers, who are already busy with other things, provide you with more tools to not use?

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Pixieplumb Flanagan said:

Uh huh, well, I'm still not a 'concern troll', adorable as that sounds

You can be my 'concern troll' if you like

[Pamela Galli]

1 hour ago, Gadget Portal said:

I have to agree with this as well. If you can't be bothered to use any of the currently available tools, why should developers, who are already busy with other things, provide you with more tools to not use?

This is not unlike all the people that come here demanding LL punish some evildoer that IMs mean things and writes untruths -- or even worse, truths -- about them in their profile. They are not interested in the standard advice how to handle it themselves with the tools available to them. No, they don't care about solving the problem but about LL punishing their enemy. They want justice, not solutions. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Pamela Galli

[Qie Niangao]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't know what these issues are that "require code" to address. Eliminating griefer alts and their griefer objects passed from alt to alt don't require code to address, but merely political will -- and time.

I suppose, given enough resources, all griefing could be handled through governance enforcement, but I was mostly speaking of sim-crashers, which can happen so quickly it's difficult to even catch a trace of who did the deed. I think, practically, investing development resources in making the sims less vulnerable to such crashes is hugely cost effective as a complement to governance resources devoted to exterminating as many griefers as possible.

Part of it, I think, is the inherent asymmetry between the threat and the preventative measures. It's easy enough for somebody committed to crashing SL sims to connect on a session that's nearly impossible to trace. That just seems a different class of threat from the usual lame griefers spreading crap all over the grid and harassing renters, who indeed can be addressed (only) by determined enforcement.

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

There already are bots that serve as greeters and offer the group. I don't want to have a bot like that consuming resources on the Mainland. It's one more avatar on a sim where 16 avatars already starts to ding performance. I just don't want it, it's not my preferred method. But lots of landlords have them already. As for blacklists, you can put bans in the group, so that's already there. Not sure what you mean then.

Right, the group ban is a good (and relatively recent) feature. (I'm not sure what happens if one tries to invite a group-banned account to a closed group, but yeah, membership is probably prevented somewhere in the process.)

As to bots, I was suggesting that the "inviter" bot also get tasking from a script that renters (only) can access, to invite their friends, too -- but it's certainly possible that this is already common functionality of which I'm unaware.

Regarding Mainland resources consumed by bots -- I might have guessed that "rent-a-bots" hang out on Estate sims owned by bot rental outfits, but that's just a guess (and I know that at least some stream-management bots do hang out on Mainland -- I see them in Bhaga, but not sure what they actually do). In any case, bots can use quite minimal sim resources, but it would certainly be preferable if there were a proper Group-management API for LSL scripts instead.

Separate Tangent
It will be interesting to see if SL griefing declines when Sansar opens to the public. Initially it'll surely be a very soft target. Any griefers motivated by attacking Linden Lab will presumably find greener pastures in the Sansar greenfield, while those intent on attacking SL residents (individually or as a group) will stay behind.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

Back in the day, you could just summon a Linden and they would take care of the miscreant! Bah, humbug!

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Regarding Mainland resources consumed by bots -- I might have guessed that "rent-a-bots" hang out on Estate sims owned by bot rental outfits, but that's just a guess

I was once involved in running a group that had a bot to help with various group functions.   It lived on land belonging to the guy who ran the bot service -- we just paid him a monthly fee to use it and configured it through a website.  I don't think I ever saw the bot.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Innula Zenovka

[Innula Zenovka]

46 minutes ago, Refusenik said:

I don't believe she is griefed at a

Whatever you may think of Prok,  she's been harassed for years by a hard core of griefers who think it's fun to persecute her and make her blow her top.   I'd be paranoid and bad-tempered if I was on the receiving end of a fraction of what happens to her, and so would you be, too.

 

 

 

[MoiraKathleen]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Whatever you may think of Prok,  she's been harassed for years by a hard core of griefers who think it's fun to persecute her and make her blow her top.   I'd be paranoid and bad-tempered if I was on the receiving end of a fraction of what happens to her, and so would you be, too.

 

My alt was renting from Prok for awhile last year, and came home one day to find some of those effigies mentioned inside the rental house - I think there was at least one in the living room and one in the bedroom.  I have to say, it's quite a shock.  

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

2 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

My alt was renting from Prok for awhile last year, and came home one day to find some of those effigies mentioned inside the rental house - I think there was at least one in the living room and one in the bedroom.  I have to say, it's quite a shock.  

   Regardless of her demeanor, sensibilities, or sensitivities, it's not cool to do that to anyone. 

[Prokofy Neva]

19 hours ago, Pixieplumb Flanagan said:

Uh huh, well, I'm still not a 'concern troll', adorable as that sounds   I can't say for sure, but it certainly appears to be the case that you either get griefed a lot more than anyone else, or that it bothers you more than anyone else, or that other people who are griefed simply use the tools available and the problem stops/diminishes/becomes bearable.  Whichever it is, I'm absolutely sure that until you change something that you do this isn't going away.  And you won't change what you do, because you don't have to, and you're not breaking the TOS and the Lindens should fix it.  

This will run and run - I have popcorn.

And whilst I am not a 'concern troll' (are they the ones with the crazy hair and bodies that look, but do NOT taste like caramel?) I am a wee bit less moved by Prok's situation than I was last week.  More entertained, though, so lucky me!

Um, yes you are. Let me think now -- what would the "tools" be that would stop someone from placing RL effigies of you all over your sims? Group ban? But those are used instantly. Turn off build -- but that's done, rogue viewers override it. Etc. etc.  There isn't any need to "change what I do" because I'm not doing anything wrong; the griefers are violating the TOS, repeatedly, yet the Lindens are not getting to the root of the problem (their enablers and the land owners where their stashes are). It's like terrorist financing.

That you believe that this is somehow my fault, or even a "fetish" of mine as you say below is all part of the creepy, inhuman behavior from the Linden fan base that *enables griefing*. Really, it is quite outrageous.

You're welcome to continue to display your absence of character. Block/ban.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

10 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

My alt was renting from Prok for awhile last year, and came home one day to find some of those effigies mentioned inside the rental house - I think there was at least one in the living room and one in the bedroom.  I have to say, it's quite a shock.  

Yes, well, there you go. Multiple this by a thousand and you see the problem. Now why aren't the Lindens addressing this at the root?

[Prokofy Neva]

Um, it's hardly being "paranoid and bad-tempered" to publicize chronic griefing problems after you've abuse-reported them numerous times without effect. The last several rounds of these griefers I didn't publicize -- there's a theory that if you don't give griefers the publicity they crave, they stop. I'm here to explain that theory doesn't work at all, but in fact fuels them in the end.

In any event, griefers are impervious to methods you use on them or don't use on them. The issue is deterrence, and getting their enablers to stop. 

[Dillon Levenque]

I don't know nearly as much about the inside nuts, bolts, and bits (as in ones and zeroes) of SL as the bulk of people in this thread. I have, however, been reading the various forae (I get all proper Latin now and then; usually I just call 'em forums) for about nine years. So I've read a great deal, from many sides, about the discussion at hand.

I find I am in the VERY uncomfortable position of saying something that conflicts with something Innula said above. Having read a great many of Innula's posts both here and elsewhere, I suspect I'm probably wrong. Nevertheless, I want to say this. Of all the comments about this I've seen, a single line from a post by Pixieplumb goes straight to the heart of the matter.

"I'm absolutely sure that until you change something that you do this isn't going away."

I've read lots of posts in which Prok's tenants past and present have praised his behavior as a landlord. Unfortunately, being a great landlord is never going to deter griefers. BTW I know you've all been referencing Prok in the feminine and apparently she's made it RL clear that she's female, but unless things have changed the SL avatar is male. Hence, I use the masculine. I am of course RL male but in SL I greatly prefer the feminine pronouns.

Pixieplumb's right. Until Prok changes something he does, it won't change. I do not know what that is, but then I am not involved.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dillon Levenque
correcting horrribly jumbled continuity

[Phil Deakins]

4 hours ago, Dillon Levenque said:

BTW I know you've all been referencing Prok in the feminine and apparently she's made it RL clear that she's female, but unless things have changed the SL avatar is male.

I've never seen her in SL. I did see a pic she took of her avatar, and posted in her own blog, and it was female. So, as far as I am concerned, she is a she and always will be a she, regardless of what gender avatar she may use from time to time. I've also seen the RL pic.

Another aspect of this is that when we talk about avatars, we are talking about things, and not actual people. The people are at the keyboard and not inhabiting SL avatars. It's why I often use the word 'females' rather than 'girls' or 'women'. To me, it differentiates between them - when applied to avatars, females are things, like furries and dragons, whereas girls and women have a more 'people' feel. The avatar's gender doesn't always match the typist's gender, so 'females' sometimes seems to be a better word when referring to avatars. Not always, but sometimes. I don't follow it all the way though. I still say 'she' and 'he' but not 'it'

The point is that Prok is here in this forum as an RL person, and not as an avatar. It's the RL woman at the keyboard who is being harrassed through her SL experience. She is the one who wrote the posts, not her avatar. We don't know her real name - at least I don't - so we refer to her as the name she gave to her avatar. If this were an inworld conversation, and Prok was there as a male, then I'd possibly refer to 'him' and not to 'her', but this isn't inworld. This forum is in the RL world, and Prok is a she in this world - just like you're a 'he'

Edited July 13, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Um, yes you are. Let me think now -- what would the "tools" be that would stop someone from placing RL effigies of you all over your sims? Group ban? But those are used instantly. Turn off build -- but that's done, rogue viewers override it. Etc. etc.  There isn't any need to "change what I do" because I'm not doing anything wrong; the griefers are violating the TOS, repeatedly, yet the Lindens are not getting to the root of the problem (their enablers and the land owners where their stashes are). It's like terrorist financing.

That you believe that this is somehow my fault, or even a "fetish" of mine as you say below is all part of the creepy, inhuman behavior from the Linden fan base that *enables griefing*. Really, it is quite outrageous.

You're welcome to continue to display your absence of character. Block/ban.

 

LOL, smh.  Ok, no, I don't actually think this is a fetish, certainly not in a sexual sense.  But you are obsessed with this, and because you always rise to the teasing and bullying and griefing you are rewarding the people who do it.  I expect that you are quite fully aware of this now.  Part of the reason you are targeted is that you link your rl identity to your sl one, and your views are known to be considered extreme. 

To be blunt, you're viewed as an obsessed nutter guaranteed to go off with the slightest provocation.  You get outraged when people are rude to you, but you are terribly rude as well.  We call this hypocrisy.  It isn't 'absence of character' to disagree with someone.  Bless your heart, perhaps you can't help it; as Phil points out, the rl picures aren't of a happy person.

Sure, block/ban me; I'm not your problem.  I don't grief you, I don't care about you or your business or your tenants, and block/banning me won't make the slightest bit of difference to your abusers or your pitiable situation.

I did care a bit about how unhappy you were, but now that we've established that you just love to whinge and won't make any attempt to change, well, foxtrot oscar, basically.

 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Um, it's hardly being "paranoid and bad-tempered" to publicize chronic griefing problems after you've abuse-reported them numerous times without effect. The last several rounds of these griefers I didn't publicize -- there's a theory that if you don't give griefers the publicity they crave, they stop. I'm here to explain that theory doesn't work at all, but in fact fuels them in the end.

In any event, griefers are impervious to methods you use on them or don't use on them. The issue is deterrence, and getting their enablers to stop. 

They're also impervious to the methods you're proposing that Linden Lab uses on them.

[Theresa Tennyson]

7 hours ago, Dillon Levenque said:

Pixieplumb's right. Until Prok changes something he does, it won't change. I do not know what that is, but then I am not involved.

 

Meanwhile, if you go to Mr. Neva's blog at 3dblogger.typepad.com/second_thoughts you can read a live example of how he manages to change an initially sympathetic person to an enemy through his reaction to this.

There's a realization you need to reach in situations like this, and until you come to that realization you'll never leave Margaritaville.

[Phil Deakins]

13 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Meanwhile, if you go to Mr. Neva's blog at 3dblogger.typepad.com/second_thoughts you can read a live example of how he manages to change an initially sympathetic person to an enemy through his reaction to this.

Oooo, I got a mention

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

6 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Oooo, I got a mention

Careful, I think Prok is flirting with you

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

Also, I just found this store: <Advertising Link Removed> thanks to that blog;some really nice resources here, ta Prok 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Dakota Linden
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Community_Participation_Guidelines