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Annie Melson

Transparent texture gets blurry after uploading

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Hello, everyone. I've been struggling with transparent textures blurring after I upload them. When I test the textures in local, they look fine, but after I upload the very same texture, the texture is blurred as if it isn't fully rezzed. My textures are 1024 x 1024. I have made these textures for a fitted mesh item, but I can see the texture itself is blurry before putting it on the mesh, so it is definitely something within the texture itself and not the mesh. Plus this is ONLY happening for transparent textures. My non transparent textures upload just fine. So definitely not the mesh. I've been saving and following the same practices I always do for transparent textures and I've never run into this problem before. I am hoping someone out there may know what is causing this, and how I can fix it. 

Pic of Tested texture in Local: https://gyazo.com/46c64cf323e9a2690c9d24e9c6d1c9d1

Pic of Uploaded texture: https://gyazo.com/f66cd8668f45655d6e5aa30a9b4d1254

Thank you for any and all help I can get from all of you! :)

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My only thought would be that if this is JUST today, it might not be "you" at all. Others have reported some major permissions changes AND it is Sunday. Put that all together and I would try waiting a day or two if you can. You might also try uploading on the beta grid and see what is happening. AND if that was a beta grid photo you might try uploading on the main grid. 

You could try png instead of tga or the other way around, but my guess is that it isn't your fault :D. Good luck.

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Hello Chic! Unfortunately, this is happening on both the beta and the main grid exactly the same way, and I've been struggling with this for almost 3 days now. :( I've also tried both PNG and TGA. TGA won't even allow transparency for me, which is odd because it's always worked before for me. So neither file is working for me correctly. 

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A couple of thoughts that may help you sort things out:

A 1024 x 1024 texture is the maximum size you can upload to SL.  A 32-bit texture that large is likely to load slower than smaller ones.  For comparison, any textures applied directly to an avatar in SL are automatically downsized to 512 x 512, which is more than large enough.  Aside from taking longer to rez, a large texture also takes up a good chunk of a user's cache, so some computers may need to upload it fresh fairly often.  That's too, can make it slow to render.

When your viewer renders a texture, it does it in 4 passes with increasing LOD on each one.  It's not uncommon for an upload to be stuck at a low LOD pass if the viewer is distracted by other priorities.

The Local textures option is truly local.  When you view a texture that way, you are viewing the copy that is on your own hard drive, so you should expect it to look as good as it did in Photoshop or GIMP.  When you upload the texture, it is converted to JPEG2000, a lossy format.  When your viewer sees that texture, it's seeing something substantially different from the original.  In addition to loss during compression, it may have also suffered some degradation due to packet loss during upload.

I don't know how much of this may be affecting your texture, but I suspect that some of it is in the mix.

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Hello, Rolig. Yes, I've known about these things, and I had even tried a 512x512 to see if it would make a difference. It didn't, except to be blurrier. I've tried everything I can think of to make it functional. The strange thing about this is that it is only with transparent textures. My solid textures upload perfectly fine. What makes it even odder is the fact that I've successfully uploaded transparent textures in the past without degradation. 

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1 hour ago, Annie Melson said:

but I can see the texture itself is blurry before putting it on the mesh,

This is fixed usually with deleting the texture cache of the viewer. And re-downloading the texture.

Judging from the images I would almost say that the uploaded texture is set to alpha masking instead of blending. This can happen even automatically with the Automatic Alpha Masks feature of the viewer. This can be easily ruled out though, if you set the face to 1% transparency. I could be wrong though. :SwingingFriends:

To minimize compression artifacts (and any white halo effects), the background of the texture should be filled with a solid color, in this case plain green should be sufficient. Just in case you haven't done that already.

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Arton alluded to my next question :D.

Have you let someone ELSE look at the texture and take a screenshot. This would easily tell if the problem lies with YOU or is an actual problem. There have been many times that I couldn't see a texture or mesh or whatever and a friend could. One of these issues (not yours but I will through it in here anyway) is that textures used in both Opensim and SL with the same viewer (I use FS) can become "lost" somehow and the person using the viewer on both platforms sees the texture -- both inworld and in inventory as solid white. OTHERS can see the texture just fine.  Clearing cache doesn't fix that unfortunately.

That isn't your issue of course but it IS important to know if it is 'just you' :D

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Hello, Arton. I tried clearing all of the caches in the preferences and then uploading again, but nothing changed. Should I go directly into the viewer's folder and delete the cache manually? The only change I can think of is that I updated Firestorm and now this is happening, however I've also tried different viewers and see the same problems, so that doesn't make much sense either.

Chic, I've not asked if others can see the textures better. I'll have to do that tomorrow. :)

I want to thank everyone who has responded for trying to help me figure this out! You guys are awesome! Hopefully we'll get this sorted out. ❤️

Edited by Annie Melson

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35 minutes ago, Annie Melson said:

Hello, Arton. I tried clearing all of the caches in the preferences and then uploading again, but nothing changed. Should I go directly into the viewer's folder and delete the cache manually?

Doing it the way you did should do the trick (assuming you did restart the viewer as well). You won't have to reupload the texture though, It will be downloaded from LLs servers, because it's there already.

If you go into the folder directly you can delete just the texture cache, which will be quicker. It won't have any influence on the issue you are facing though.

I would still like to know if the texture is set to alpha masking, but the local one to alpha blending in the images. :SwingingFriends:

Edited by arton Rotaru

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Arton, I restarted and checked already uploaded textures as well as uploading a new one. Nothing changed.

I tried alpha blending and alpha masking. The result was exactly the same - still blurry. In the pics I took I had the masking enabled.

Edited by Annie Melson

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11 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Can you attach one of the problem textures here so we can test uploading it?

It's not allowing me to upload the texture at 1024x1024 resolution, Whirly. I can only get it to upload at 512x512 resolution. The 512 resolution is super blurry so I hardly see the sense of uploading it here for testing, but I'll attach it anyway. 

test2.png

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Wow, that's a tiny pattern indeed. Thinking of it as a 1024, it would still be tiny. I'd guess this is rather expected behavior due to the lossy compression when uploaded.

Edited by arton Rotaru
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Compression aside, consider what will happen to any detail that is only a few pixels across as you downsize the image from 1024 x 1024 to 512 x 512 or smaller.  Pixels are averaged with neighboring ones, so a tiny feature that is defined almost completely by pixels around its edges can be averaged almost out of existence.  A 2 pixel wide line becomes a blur.

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2 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

Wow, that's a tiny pattern indeed. Thinking of it as a 1024, it would still be tiny. I'd guess this is rather expected behavior due to the lossy compression when uploaded.

 

29 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Compression aside, consider what will happen to any detail that is only a few pixels across as you downsize the image from 1024 x 1024 to 512 x 512 or smaller.  Pixels are averaged with neighboring ones, so a tiny feature that is defined almost completely by pixels around its edges can be averaged almost out of existence.  A 2 pixel wide line becomes a blur.

I am not wanting to use a 512x512 for that exact reason. I just can't upload a 1024x1024 texture in this forum. It won't let me. I only posted the 512x512 because that's all it would allow me to attach.

But remember, I have uploaded 1024x1024 textures exactly like this into Second Life without a problem in the past. Even just 3 weeks ago. Transparent textures are not a new thing for me, and they have been very clear and crisp in appearance. Something wrong is happening with my transparent textures right now that I can't find. 

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11 minutes ago, Annie Melson said:

I only posted the 512x512 because that's all it would allow me to attach

Perhaps you can cut out a 512² out of the 1024. Just the layer with that pattern. This way we could create a 1024 with the correct sizing of the pattern.

if it is though that 2 pixels wide diagonal lines, I'm with Rolig here still. Especially if you set this to alpha masking, the texture will fade into nothing only a few meters away from the model. SL has mip mapping which will downsize textures according to the space they take on the srceen. That is for performance reasons, and to avoid moire effects.

Edited by arton Rotaru

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Unfortunately I don't think I am getting my problem across very well. Everything you are saying, I already know and have tried. I can upload anything of the same size and same file (TGA, PNG, etc) as a solid texture and have no problems. If I turn off the transparency and upload the texture, it is clear. It is in the act of uploading a transparent texture that it is going wrong. I have uploaded more transparent textures that have been created in the same way I have always done previously and each upload is different. I will actually get further degradation, and each one is a different degradation. There is no reason that I can find for this. TGA won't even upload transparency any longer for me. PNG uploads transparency but it is blurry.

Once again, I've uploaded both TGA and PNG transparent textures in the past without issue. I can get them very crisp and clear. I can use alpha masking in SL without causing problems as well. All I ca figure at this point is that there is something happening in the uploader itself.

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I did a little experiment. I created a texture with a grid pattern with 3 pixels wide lines. I added a little noise to get some "detail" to compare. A 1024px, and a 128px cutout. They are all set to alpha masking with 128 Mask cutoff. The prims with the 128px texture are respectively smaller to maintain the same texel density as on the prims with the 1024. I also re-uploaded an alpha texture which I had already in-world, to compare the new against the old. They both look identical though. So to me this comes pretty much down to compression. Which would be expected behavior.

BlurredLines01.jpg.6aca313e683b898351846fd02221ed6b.jpg

Edited by arton Rotaru

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10 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

I did a little experiment. I created a texture with a grid pattern with 3 pixels wide lines. I added a little noise to get some "detail" to compare. A 1024px, and a 128px cutout. They are all set to alpha masking with 128 Mask cutoff. The prims with the 128px texture are respectively smaller to maintain the same texel density as on the prims with the 1024. I also re-uploaded an alpha texture which I had already in-world, to compare the new against the old. They both look identical though. So to me this comes pretty much down to compression. Which would be expected behavior.

BlurredLines01.jpg.6aca313e683b898351846fd02221ed6b.jpg

Arton, is that TGA or PNG? I also don't have the option to remove lossless. It's automatically putting the lossless in. 

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Since I am waiting for a bake, I am wondering if there isn't a setting that turns on the lossless ability. I have that as the default in FS but I logged in on the Linden Viewer (with no changes as I only use it under duress to upload mesh) and didn't have that ability BUT the box is there. I scanned back and didn't see if you told us which viewer you are using but since that check box appears on BOTH I suspect there is a place to change that in preferences.

 

PS. While this is a jpg file (?) it says so anyway. I did try a transparent png and I still had that option. 

 

losslessinSL.PNG.225f822badc10e3921561f0bcb8802da.PNGlosslessinFS.PNG.4e91a6644ae5c40985aabbf48c9bf789.PNG

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They are all TGAs. The lossless checkbox will only be tickable when you load a 128 or smaller texture. It's also only working on these small sizes. If you load a larger texture the lossless checkbox doesn't matter. It has no effect then, if it's ticked or not.

Edited by arton Rotaru

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5 minutes ago, arton Rotaru said:

They are all TGAs. The lossless checkbox will only be tickable when you load a 128 or smaller texture. It's also only working on these small sizes. If you load a larger texture the lossless checkbox doesn't matter. It has no effect then, if it's ticked or not.

I thought so. I can't upload a transparent TGA. No matter what I do in photoshop to make it keep it's transparency, it still comes in solid and will not have transparent areas. (Using layers masks and saving as 34 too.) Apparently there is something setting wise in SL that isn't allowing me to upload transparent TGA. And I'm thinking it's the same for PNG with this blurriness.

 

7 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

LosslessJ2CUpload is the debug setting.

I will give this a try. Thank you! 

 

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6 minutes ago, Annie Melson said:

I thought so. I can't upload a transparent TGA. No matter what I do in photoshop to make it keep it's transparency, it still comes in solid and will not have transparent areas. (Using layers masks and saving as 34 too.) Apparently there is something setting wise in SL that isn't allowing me to upload transparent TGA. And I'm thinking it's the same for PNG with this blurriness.

Well, as you can see in the image I posted, the blur is there. So I doubt you can do anything against this. What your problem is with not being able to upload alpha textures, is something different indeed.

As I said, the lossless import does only work for 128px or smaller textures. Larger textures will always be imported with lossy compression.

Edited by arton Rotaru

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