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Adeindra

Race bending in Second Life

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1 hour ago, clivesteel said:

And - as predicted - the jackals gather to howl without actually saying anything.

We juss Howlin back..

It would be considered rude if we didn't.

 

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On 5/31/2017 at 2:16 PM, Adeindra said:

This may be a sensitive topic, but I am curious about the etiquette surrounding race-bending in SL. If I am white, and I make a black avatar, is that like blackface?

I started out in SL (2007) with a tan skin, with the intent to represent as a black avatar - "dusky" - in SL. High quality avatar options were slim to none for people of color. (I am white/black biracial in RL). I too was socially ignored until I began to wear lighter skin tones. Your dark skin will probably do much better in today's social-political scene in SL.

I strongly believe that anyone can be anything in SL, however I don't like the cringe-worthy, sexual objectifying of black men and women in SL by people that are role-playing as black "bulls", rapists, thug and black thot/hoe/***** stereotypes, and a variety of other bizarre interracial porn fantasies. I doubt that the majority of those type of avatars are controlled by real black people. Wearing a black skin in SL is not black face, unless you are choosing to wear a black avatar in a derogatory fashion with the intent to hurt us.

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I don't have a problem with people's sexual fantasies  -- not that I know or care much about them -- even if based on racial stereotypes.  That's just SOP in SL.

I would find lurid cartoonish blackface type parodies offensive, tho. However it can be hard to tell if something is meant to be a parody or is someone's idea of beauty. 

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1 hour ago, Dusky Jewell said:

I started out in SL (2007) with a tan skin, with the intent to represent as a black avatar - "dusky" - in SL. High quality avatar options were slim to none for people of color. (I am white/black biracial in RL). I too was socially ignored until I began to wear lighter skin tones. Your dark skin will probably do much better in today's social-political scene in SL.

I strongly believe that anyone can be anything in SL, however I don't like the cringe-worthy, sexual objectifying of black men and women in SL by people that are role-playing as black "bulls", rapists, thug and black thot/hoe/***** stereotypes, and a variety of other bizarre interracial porn fantasies. I doubt that the majority of those type of avatars are controlled by real black people. Wearing a black skin in SL is not black face, unless you are choosing to wear a black avatar in a derogatory fashion with the intent to hurt us.

I've had pretty much the same experience in SL, and still notice a distinct difference in the way that I'm treated with something as simple as a change in hair. I also hear you about the racial fetishes and sexual objectification based on whatever preconceived ideology that one may possess concerning a particular race - however, I tend to stay away from that side of SL. When it comes to two consenting adults engaging in such activities, to each their own, I just choose not to partake in it.  Thankfully, black and other ethnic skins have vastly improved over the years in SL, but the way they are perceived and treated by others, well, we have a ways to go still.

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4 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

I would find lurid cartoonish blackface type parodies offensive, tho.

Most people in SL wouldn't even know what the word "blackface" means

And that brings up a rather important and often overlooked aspect of racism. So a double caution here:

For Americans: do not assume that your concept of racism has any relevance whatsoever elsewhere in the world,

and for non-Americans: do not assume that your concept of racism has any relevance whatsoever to the USA.

I'm not saying one kind of racism is less bad than the other, they're probably about the same in that respect, But apart from, that, they are very different.

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22 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

For Americans: do not assume that your concept of racism has any relevance whatsoever elsewhere in the world,

 

Most Americans live in a bubble, about pretty much everything. 

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24 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

For Americans: do not assume that your concept of racism has any relevance whatsoever elsewhere in the world,

and for non-Americans: do not assume that your concept of racism has any relevance whatsoever to the USA.


 

Being British, and online, over the years I've regularly had to deal with Americans raging at us Brits for calling black people, black. "Oh you have to call them African-Americans" to which one must then explain that the ones here are a) not American and many are in no way shape or form African, and that b) they refer to themselves as Black British, and last and by no means least, c) that we make this distinction between Black people of Caribbean origin and African origin because we have Real Africans here.

Real Wild Africans.

From Africa...

 

Edited by Klytyna

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45 minutes ago, Klytyna said:


 

Being British, and online, over the years I've regularly had to deal with Americans raging at us Brits for calling black people, black. "Oh you have to call them African-Americans" to which one must then explain that the ones here are a) not American and many are in no way shape or form African, and that b) they refer to themselves as Black British, and last and by no means least, c) that we make this distinction between Black people of Caribbean origin and African origin because we have Real Africans here.

Real Wild Africans.

From Africa...

 

Don't think so, if anything the reverse. Example: It's Black Lives Matter not AA Lives Matter. And most Americans do know at least that citizens of U.K.  are not American.

 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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1 hour ago, Klytyna said:


 

Being British, and online, over the years I've regularly had to deal with Americans raging at us Brits for calling black people, black. "Oh you have to call them African-Americans" to which one must then explain that the ones here are a) not American and many are in no way shape or form African, and that b) they refer to themselves as Black British, and last and by no means least, c) that we make this distinction between Black people of Caribbean origin and African origin because we have Real Africans here.

Real Wild Africans.

From Africa...

 

Myself and many of the Black people that I have encountered during my years in SL (including my Egyptian brother) refer to ourselves as Black. Are we African by nationality? of course not (with the exception of my brother and other friends who were born in Africa) we're Americans, born in America - however, we are still black Americans with direct African ancestry. Whatever DNA, culture, and traditions they brought over with them to this country, guess what? Got passed down to their future generations - though a great deal of it got watered down or assimilated out of us over time, we have not forgotten where our ancestors came from or how we ended up here.

There are groups here who haven't strayed away from those African traditions that our ancestors left them with and they still practice them today - Gullah culture, Creole culture are just two of them, there are more. We also have plenty of people from all over Africa here in America, and a large community of people from various African nations where I live, they don't seem to take offense to any black person who chooses to refer to themselves as African-American, because they understand where it comes from. If, like myself there are those who choose to refer to themselves as Black, they are fine with that as well;  to each their own.

 

Edited by Kristen Beornssen
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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Most people in SL wouldn't even know what the word "blackface" means

And that brings up a rather important and often overlooked aspect of racism. So a double caution here:

For Americans: do not assume that your concept of racism has any relevance whatsoever elsewhere in the world,

and for non-Americans: do not assume that your concept of racism has any relevance whatsoever to the USA.

I'm not saying one kind of racism is less bad than the other, they're probably about the same in that respect, But apart from, that, they are very different.

This is why it's a good thing to have friends from all over the world, as it will allow you to broaden the most myopic of perceptions and realize that the earth is a much bigger place than your tiny corner of it.

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1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Black people of Caribbean origin

Those people's ancestors were brought there from Africa. 

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18 minutes ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

we're Americans, born in America

And that is exactly the difference I had in mind.

A black person in - say Denmark to pick a random example - will be seen as a foreigner and the racism he or she is met with will be mainly based on the fear of the unknown. An Afro-American is of course not a foreigner and US racism is more based on old unresovled conflicts. Either is of course equally bad but the cause, effect and cure can be quite different.

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1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

Most Americans live in a bubble, about pretty much everything. 

We all do. It's of course traditional to make fun of how little 'mericans know about the rest of the world but that applies to most people of all nations.

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1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Being British, and online, over the years I've regularly had to deal with Americans raging at us Brits for calling black people, black.

They say Britain and USA are separated by a common language. ;)

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5 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

We all do. It's of course traditional to make fun of how little 'mericans know about the rest of the world but that applies to most people of all nations.

I think things are beginning to change a little but I feel like Americans live in a house with two way mirrors for windows. Everyone can and does see in but we see out very little.*

* With the exception of Britain. We are mad for and fascinated by Britain and Brits. At least I am. (I got teary just watching the Dunkirk trailer.)

Edited by Pamela Galli
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1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

And that is exactly the difference I had in mind.

A black person in - say Denmark to pick a random example - will be seen as a foreigner and the racism he or she is met with will be mainly based on the fear of the unknown. An Afro-American is of course not a foreigner and US racism is more based on old unresovled conflicts. Either is of course equally bad but the cause, effect and cure can be quite different.

I'm not sure how true that is, unless of course I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make. When comparing notes with other black people I've come across online and offline from different parts of the world, when it comes to being on the receiving end of racism - the cause and effect is pretty much universal. When you are being judged on your skin color and experience bigotry and discrimination because of it, it really doesn't matter where you live or where you are from when it happens, you just know that it is because of your race.

It's funny, my husband is White and Norwegian, but he has witnessed first hand how the issue of "race" is handled here in America, and although in some cases it is more openly expressed here, the sentiments behind it are still the same. Even in Norway, It's just more covert and insidious there.

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I was just thinking about Norway, because Chin. What I knew about it until I started watching Norwegian TV: there be Vikings. (Don't run into many Norwegians in Texas.) Now I think we ought to model America on Norway.

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

I was just thinking about Norway, because Chin. What I knew about it until I started watching Norwegian TV: there be Vikings. (Don't run into many Norwegians in Texas.) Now I think we ought to model America on Norway.

You'll probably find more of them around the Houston area than in Dallas (where I am), because many of them relocated there from Norway to work in the oil industry. Yeah, Norway is miles ahead of the U.S. when it comes to standard of living and quality of life.

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5 hours ago, ChinRey said:

They say Britain and USA are separated by a common language. ;)

It's like the so called 'Anglo-American Special Relationship', which is an actual agreement from the late 1950's.

Made shortly after the test on Chirstmas Island (iirc), about 100 miles south of Pearl Harbour, the agreement specifies details about sharing nuclear technology, and about who will design the missiles and bombs, who will actually make the missiles and bombs, and who will buy then at a special discount price.

Examined in the light of cynicism, the Special Relationship actually amounts to...

America pretends to be Britain's Friend and in exchange, Britain pretends to believe America, and smiles back...



 

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10 hours ago, Talligurl said:

Those people's ancestors were brought there from Africa.

Erm... SOME of their ancestors came from West Africa.

It's important to remember the distinction.

MY Ancestors were Gascons, from British Aquitaine, they fled from their homes to England over 500 years ago, when the French overran the place, at the tail end of the Hundred Years War.

We 'Gasco-British' NEVER hold an annual "Music of Gascon Origins Awards" bash, where we claim all modern popular music is wholly derived from Ethnic Gascon traditions, and stolen from us by our 'Evil Anglo' neighbours. We NEVER invent insane miss-pronounciations, and claim s.a.d.e is spoken as 'shar-day' and claim we are speaking 'Gasconics' 

We certainly don't claim that after more than 500 years if intermarriage with non Gascons, that having a so much as a single Gascon chromasome makes us 'Ethnically Gascon'

Back in the 70's there was this thing, that briefly became popular amongst university educated American Afro-Pretentious, called "Roots Tourism", where you'd take a trip to West Africa, to 'get  back to your African roots', and visit the places from which you fervently hoped, your ancestors had been kidnapped by 'Evil Honky Crackers'.

Roots tourism fell out of popularity, mainly because when the tourists arrived at the west African port from which most of the slaves had been shipped, and visited the Slavery Museum, a nice well spoken black African university graduate, would kindly explain that the tourists ancestors had been sold by HER ancestors, to passing white traders because the whites going past in ships were too clueless to realise they were overpaying with GUNS and GOLD for surplus PoW's who normally sold for a couple of SILVER pieces to Arab Traders on the overland route..

So the Roots tourists ended up staying home, with their illusions, and founded the MOBO Awards...

Maybe... Maybe the Afro-Pretentious Movement could learn from us 'Ethnically and Culturally Gasco-British' ;)

 

Edited by Klytyna

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45 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Erm... SOME of their ancestors came from West Africa.

It's important to remember the distinction.

MY Ancestors were Gascons, from British Aquitaine, they fled from their homes to England over 500 years ago, when the French overran the place, at the tail end of the Hundred Years War.

We 'Gasco-British' NEVER hold an annual "Music of Gason Origins Awards" bach, where we claim all modern popular music is wholly derived from Ethnic Gascon traditions, and stolen from us by our 'Evil Anglo' neighbours. We NEVER invent insane miss-pronounciations, and claim s.a.d.e is spoken as 'shar-day' and claim we are speaking 'Gasconics' 

We certainly don't claim that after more than 500 years if intermarriage with non Gascons, that having a so much as a single Gascon chromasome makes us 'Ethnically Gascon'

Back in the 70's there was this thing, that briefly became popular amongst university educated American Afro-Pretentious, called "Roots Tourism", where you'd take a trip to West Africa, to 'get  back to your African roots', and visit the places from which you fervently hoped, your ancestors had been kidnapped by 'Evil Honky Crackers'.

Roots tourism fell out of popularity, mainly because when the tourists arrived at the west African port from which most of the slaves had been shipped, and visited the Slavery Museum, a nice well spoken black African university graduate, would kindly explain that the tourists ancestors had been sold by HER ancestors, to passing white traders because the whites going past in ships were too clueless to realise they were overpaying with GUNS and GOLD for surplus PoW's who normally sold for a couple of SILVER pieces to Arab Traders on the overland route..

So the Roots tourists ended up staying home, with their illusions, and founded the MOBO Awards...

Maybe... Maybe the Afro-Pretentious Movment could learn from us 'Ethnically and Culturally Gasco-British' ;)
 

Genealogy Tourism is still very much a thing in the states, so I'm not sure how you arrived at the foregone conclusion that black Americans stopped going on these tours for whatever contrived reason that you've imagined. 

 

Oh and the average black American is also 70 - 90% African, West African to be exact. So your 'single chromosome' comparison doesn't apply to us, though you do seem rather intent on spreading misinformation. What else would we be "ethnically speaking" ? As there is no such thing as "ethnic American", unless of course you happen to be a First Nations indigenous Native American.  

 

Next time you can reply directly to me instead of around me. I don't bite, despite the "Wild African" blood. ;)

Edited by Kristen Beornssen
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33 minutes ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

Genealogy Tourism is still very much a thing in the states, so I'm not sure how you arrived at the foregone conclusion that black Americans stopped going on these tours for whatever contrived reason that you've imagined.

Many years ago, a documentary was made following a group of 'Roots Tourists' on their  journey to dissappointment.

After meeting the nice wellspoken young lady at the Slavery Museum, and learning their ancestors hadn't all been 'African Warriors' kidnapped by whites, but had mainly been unarmed civillians enslaved by, other Africans, and sold to the whites simply because the whites didn't know they were being overcharged. the tourists were able to visit the residence of the local King.

This cheerful man in a blue and white floral cotton shirt, happily explained how PROUD he was of HIS ancestors improvements to the country, financed by selling THEIR ancestors into slavery. They left dissillusioned and dissappointed that it wasn't how they had expected it to be, none ofthat "Careful my ancestor was a Watusi Warrior, man" stuff they had hoped for.

40 minutes ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

Oh and the average black American is also 70 - 90% African, West African to be exact. So your 'single chromosome' comparison doesn't apply to us

There was another documentary made, about Black women in Britain and their complaints that they found it hard to obtain Black boyfriends because the guys were all after 'White Trophy Girlfriends'. During the piece, the crew interviewed two sisters, who emphatically stated that they would never consider dating a white guy.

These two 'black' girls had a white mother, two white grandmothers, four white great grandmothers, a white grandfather, and three white great grandfathers...

And the one black great grandfather came from Jamaica with a distinct possibility of an ancestry that wasn't 100% Ethnically West African, so the 'black' sisters were LESS than 12.5%  'Ethnically West African' but still Officially 'Black' according to Afro-Pretentious Ideology

So, perhaps you can begin to understand why I have doubts about the Afro-Pretentious Movement and take claims of how 'officially black' black people claim to be with a pinch of salt, unless they are actually African. Where are the Franco-americans, the Germano-Americans the Polo-Americans, the Brito-Americans?

My Mother was Irish, from Ireland, I am HALF Irish, I get annoyed at 'plastic paddies' who blather about wearing the green and how they are 'irish american' because one of their polish immigrant ancestors once kissed an irish girl in 1842, and how they feel about the 'Old Country'. 

My disregard for the whole group of "[something] Pretentious" Cultural claims by people who have almost NO connection to the "Old Country" isn't based on skin colour, but on the quality of the often inaccurate and pretentious claims.

47 minutes ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

What else would we be "ethnically speaking" ?

I'm not convinced you need to label your selves at all, frankly, can't you just be 'Americans'? I mean, that was supposed to be the whole damn idea behind America, wasn't it? Hence the fact that the requirement for American Citizenship used to be "Resided in the United States for 5 years".

49 minutes ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

Next time you can reply directly to me instead of around me.

For the record, I don't 'reply around people', maybe it's that Gascon blood, 

 
 

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8 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Everyone can and does see in but we see out very little.*

* With the exception of Britain. We are mad for and fascinated by Britain and Brits.

Well, yes but... many of the things American's 'know' about Britain come as a surprise to the British, 15 years ago in Atheist chatrooms and forums, I'd regularly hear Americans claiming that Britain was obviously more Christian than America, because it had an official  Christian faith and thew Queen was head of the Church!

Reality was that when the percentage of Atheists in the states was estimated at about 5% and stable, in Britain it was more like 14% and climbing.

And don't get me started on the whole 'Dick van ***** in Mary Poppins' thing when yanks find out you were born in London.

Cor blimey Guv'nor, stone da bleedin crows, would you adam n' eve it, climb da apples n' pears... *rolls eyes*
 

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1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Cor blimey Guv'nor, stone da bleedin crows, would you adam n' eve it, climb da apples n' pears... *rolls eyes*

"bleedin" should have an apsotrophe after it - bleedin'

"adam n' eve" should be Adam 'n' Eve, with an apostrophe for each of the missing characters, and the names should be capitalised.

"apples n' pears" should be apples 'n' pears, with a apostrophe for each of the missing characters.

;)

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