Discussion: Selling Full Perm Scripts

[Qie Niangao]

Besides simple product and work for hire, there are also arbitrarily complicated revenue-splitting licenses. I do not mean to suggest these are good ideas -- they usually end up siphoning all income to money's true destiny: lawyers. Take for example the recent Ozimals case, where it's now evident only attorneys will benefit from all the hard work of everyone involved. Nonetheless, such agreements exist, and I've even been party to some, back in ancient times when I was willing to take money for scripting.

So yeah, I'm just agreeing and amplifying the point everyone is making: there's no single favoured IP arrangement for commercial scripting, so nothing should be implicitly assumed. Also, unless there's a real world contract involved, there's just no point in making a fuss. (Also, Theresa's point is well taken in this case: The profile that is purported to include some terms and conditions for scripting is completely invisible in non-legacy viewers such as the Lab's, as well as on the web. I don't know how those privacy settings get so screwed up for Firestorm users, but it's annoyingly common.)

[Pamela Galli]

I don't understand why his profile is blank on the web profile. Mine and others show Picks fine afaik.

[Qie Niangao]

I think it may be a function of what's selected in https://my.secondlife.com/settings/privacy -- maybe specifically the "About" and "Picks" tab permissions. It appears to me that a bunch of that information leaks past those privacy settings to populate the legacy profile that can be seen in Firestorm (and maybe some other TPVs?), and because everybody can see their own information those users aren't aware that their profiles look blank to others. This is all just a guess, though. I see it often but haven't dug into the details myself. I'm sure others must know the real story.

[Innula Zenovka]

Whatever the explanation for the unexpected behaviour of About and Picks at times, I think it simply re-emphasises the fact that it's a mistake to rely on people reading what it says in your profile or picks, at least when it comes to the terms and conditions on which you do business.  Far better to make that clear at the time the project is discussed.

 

[gregwen71]

As the OP, this post has finally turned into the kind of discussion I had hoped for, originally.  I stopped responding because of the toxic nature, from my point of view, of the initial responses that disregarded the topic and chose to change the topic to something more inflammatory.

Now, there are too many good statements being made, that have given me food for thought, to respond to. So, instead, I'll just make a blanket statement.  

I had said, after the first set of posts, that there had been no responses that would change my views on selling no-mod scripts. Then people that had something intelligent to stay started responding, and I paid attention.

I think the one comment that started making me really rethink everything about being a scripter in SL was the one about "the creator is EITHER selling a product (as the OP) or doing WORK FOR HIRE as Rolig and Innula do."

I do both, but where I see the problem is that I don't separate the two as being different in terms of function/rules/model... whatever you want to call it. I view the work as mine.  And, others don't see it that way. Which is fine, but at the same time, I can't expect others to change their thinking, if I want to be successful and sought after for services, then I need to adapt to the clientele's thinking.

Currently I have a small client list of 5 or 6 regular/repeat customers. The whole bit about work for hire to random people was simply to expand that client list.  There are folks who make statements like, "I don't do projects if they don't interest me."  That's fine, it's how they feel, but I am hearing that more and more from people that say this in an effort to portray that they are some kind of "master scripter" in SL.. whether they are or not.. Like some kind of level that they've achieved. 

Personally, I don't view programming this way. I'm a coding junkie. I'm a geek and a code nerd. Programming/Coding/Scripting... this is my happy place. I don't care what the job is, as long as it's not something "illegal", I will do it.  Why?  Because I love the focus, the way time falls away, and then when you "wake up", you've created something. I also do it to get things off my mind, or to think through things I cannot control while I'm creating something I can control. 

In the short time that I've been back in SL, I have done more "free" projects than paid. And yes, that "free" included full perm scripts. I don't take the stance of "if it doesn't interest me, then I won't do it. I take the stance that, if it's not worth anything to me, then I don't charge for it.

You want to make wings that flap?  Sure, I can do that in just a few minutes of time.. how much? pfft.. just remember me next time you need scripting done.

And if they come back to me again with another small project that's worth nothing to me.. ^^ Rinse. Repeat.

Programming is what I do. I get paid for it. And, in SL, why shouldn't I subsidize my SL through my scripting abilities?  

People always seem to go for the toxic responses... "Oh, you're trying to get rich. You're just jealous that someone else might make more money than you do. You probably didn't charge enough." The stupidity of making erroneous assumptions about someone you know nothing about will always get to me. Not because someone "hurt my feelings", since most times that's not even happening, but because I just literally have no tolerance for toxic stupidity.

I simply don't want some lazy jerk, like the original responder, to be able to throw money at me to write code that they don't want to do themselves, yet want to be able to edit, as much as they would like, even using that source code to completely alter it into something else using code blocks they couldn't think of themselves, resell it, claim it as their own code, or have it available to transfer to others down the line like it's a simple tip jar rotation script or some other script you can find in the "library" of your inventory.

Others would say, you got paid for it.. why should you care?  Ask any creator.. painter, sculpter writer, mesh creator, etc... Why should they care? And the answer will always be the same. I spent my time on that, I focused on that, getting it right mattered, and when something matters.. for whatever reason.. then you care about it. Period. That being said, I've never been close-minded to giving full perm scripts and have done so on many occasions.

The exchange between myself and my client was given for context, because it's what caused me to start thinking about the topic and wanting to understand more about how people think, in SL, about the topic. For those that wanted to respond to that context(rather than respond to the actual topic), I say this:

I didn't explain every single detail of our exchange. So, most of those that are saying "You should have done this or that".. for most of you the simple answer is.. I did, and you've made the assumption that I didn't rather than asking me.

For those that mentioned an issue with my profile. I've never had anyone tell me of problems with my profile and not being able to read it, certainly not in-world.  In fact, I know that the client was able to read my profile because he commented on my profile.  Another item not mentioned in the OP because it wasn't worth mentioning as it wasn't the topic to be discussed.

But, because more than one person has commented about the profile issue.. (I still don't understand what the issue actually is)... I've gone and made privacy changes and made parts of my profile visible to anyone that is logged in. And again.. you're making the assumption that looking at "gregwen71" profile is going to get you the answers you're looking for. It's not, since gregwen71 is not my scripter avatar.

Incidentally, if anyone knows how to change the forum username, send me a message letting me know, because the option to edit my name is not available to me. (It's there, it's just not editable)

I've learned a bit about how people think and also for what reasons they think that way and I feel there's enough food for thought that I can make some changes to my own thinking. Ultimately, I will probably do less scripter for hire and more focusing on my own projects for sale and generate new clientele from simply helping people that have scripting issues (like in groups). Have a good one.

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by gregwen71

[Pamela Galli]

31 minutes ago, gregwen71 said:

There are folks who make statements like, "I don't do projects if they don't interest me."  That's fine, it's how they feel, but I am hearing that more and more from people that say this in an effort to portray that they are some kind of "master scripter" in SL.. whether they are or not.. Like some kind of level that they've achieved

In this thread you have well known universally respected master scriptors. Like all successful people in SL, they can and do pick and choose their projects.

[Rolig Loon]

58 minutes ago, gregwen71 said:

There are folks who make statements like, "I don't do projects if they don't interest me."  That's fine, it's how they feel, but I am hearing that more and more from people that say this in an effort to portray that they are some kind of "master scripter" in SL.. whether they are or not.. Like some kind of level that they've achieved. 

Nah, nothing like that.  When I am in SL, I am on my own time, on vacation from RL in a way.  I get to pick and choose how I want to spend that time, so I choose projects that I find intellectually challenging instead of banal things like tummy talkers and yet another parcel radio.  As you put it, "this is my happy place."  I've been writing code in one form or another for over 50 years, so I am enjoying the freedom of deciding how I want to spend my scripting time here.  I suppose that is a "level" of some sort, but really it's just me keeping my brain happy.

Thank you for coming back to the thread.  I was afraid that maybe we had driven you off.  Threads tend to go where the community wants to take them, sometimes at a tangent from what the OP intended, but this one never really strayed far off course.  It's clear that we all script for different reasons and that we have different priorities.  I think it's fair to say, though, that we all script because we enjoy it.  We're not going to convince each other to follow the same business model, but we're all independent contractors and there's plenty of room in SL for us to do our work without stumbling over each other. 

[gregwen71]

2 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

Nah, nothing like that. 

I wasn't speaking of you nor Innula, both of whom I've read the help you've provided here for years.  I'm speaking of others who I've seen in groups touting their skills, responding to people that need help, and then basically tell the group, well I don't take on projects I'm not interested in. Which is fine, that's them.. but I'm someone who likes to help. So, if someone ask for help, my thought is.. if you're not here to take on little things that people need help with.. because 'they bore you'.. then probably shouldn't respond in a basic scripting help group. lol

That being said.. Rolig and Innula don't spend their time touting how good they are, may be, they just show it by helping other people... Do you see the difference in which I would have more respect for?

[Berksey]

Rolig, Innula, and others here are awesome to me, because they don't let their knowledge get in the way of why they post, and I like the spirit of things here when we're all throwing ideas and stuff around and they share what they all know...

I've learned a lot here, and I think it's great you came back too, Greg.

I kinda feel like products and services are separate things myself, and I've had people come back to me and ask me to work on stuff I gave them even when it was all stuff they could have edited or handed off to someone else to do; they just like me and how I treat them. But I always remember that working on their stuff (once I give it to them, it's theirs) is a service, and whether I give something away or sell it or its full perms or no-mod, if It's a thing, it's a "product" (or "item" if preferred).

I do think it's super important though to always state your work terms fully, and make sure they agree and understand, even if they say they've read everything you ask them to.

And as for working on what makes me happy, if it's just another prim radio I give them a link to the search page for them on the MP, lol. If it's something different, unique, challenging, or fun, hey, bring it.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Berksey
paragraphs, dernit...

[Nova Convair]

lol. Oh, I see that my assumption was right and the op ticked off.  At least that was entertaining and I even got the answer about the motives, which was all I wanted. Along with a whole bunch of assumptions towards me ... wooohoo ... congrats  

However ... there are many different points of view but that doesn't really matter as long as both sides agree.
The scripter needs to roll out the conditions to the customer though. You can't depend that someone reads profiles carefully. Important conditions need to be checked in advance and then things will not end in dissapointment, like it happened here.