LL Announced a Project to BAKE Textures on Meshes

[Medhue Simoni]

 

[Alwin Alcott]

just a thought... but why are these tech/building/creating/mesh subjects in General Discussion?

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

just a thought... but why are these tech/building/creating/mesh subjects in General Discussion?

Something like this will fundamentally change how mesh bodies work. It's of interest to anyone.

[Phil Deakins]

52 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Something like this will fundamentally change how mesh bodies work.

In what way?

Edited May 26, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Medhue Simoni]

2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

just a thought... but why are these tech/building/creating/mesh subjects in General Discussion?

These are fundamental changes to how SL actually works. I can understand someone being upset that I'm spamming the GD with random creation stuff, but this is not what this is. This is of interest not only to creators just also the public at large, IMHO.

[Theresa Tennyson]

9 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

In what way?

Right now, mesh bodies can only use either textures that you have an actual copy of or items that use "appliers", which use a (theoretically) secure channel to send a texture UUID to the mesh. Also, if there is anything like a tattoo or makeup that is added to the basic skin texture it needs to be put on a separate mesh that floats slightly above the skin, which limits the number of these add-ons you can use and often causes alpha-sorting issues.

With this project, you can wear system skins, tattoos, makeup and even clothing the way the default avatar does and this composite texture of all these elements can be sent to the mesh body as a single texture.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

In what way?

If they get it right, it can drasrtically reduce the mesh bodies' lag since it won't need multiple mesh layers for multiple clothes/skin layers anymore.

[Phil Deakins]

Understood. Ty both.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Bree Giffen]

Interesting! Good thing you put this in general discussion.  Quite fundamental indeed. 

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Medhue Simoni said:

s. I can understand someone being upset that I'm spamming the GD with random creation stuff, but this is not what this is. This is of interest not only to creators just also the public at large, IMHO.

nobody is upset, but you only dump post a youtube vid without any explanation .. i'm just one of some, or many, that want to read what's it about i guess

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

 i'm just one of some, or many, that want to read what's it about i guess

This is true for me.  Since I'm currently at work and they have blocked all youtube content, I can't actually watch it.  A short summary would be nice and then I can decide if I want to watch it when I get home.

[Clover Jinx]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

With this project, you can wear system skins, tattoos, makeup and even clothing the way the default avatar does and this composite texture of all these elements can be sent to the mesh body as a single texture.

This is what I was curious about, thank you! It will be interesting to see how it will work though. Will we have to use the system layers (many creators are no longer including those) or can appliers be used and then a magic "bake" button puts it all together on the mesh? It is definitely going to be interesting.

 

[Canoro Philipp]

wow! that means that I could buy a mesh t-shirt and buy some textures for it. or add to it some of my system layer textures.

classic avatar clothes are getting a revival.

many people gave up some of the clothing they brought in the past when they move to mesh, or had a hard time moving to mesh because they invested so much in classic clothing, being able to add them to mesh it would help many people.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Canoro Philipp

[Nova Convair]

The clothing layer on a mesh body is above the skin and has a shape as clothes would have. That results in a much better look than textures that are painted directly on the skin.

You can not bake a normal and a specular map on the texture. You need a surface for that.

So it's not that easy and old system clothes can not compete with new mesh clothes - except for the ultra-low-graphics users, but it's still very interesting and will allow multi layer stuff without having all that layers in geometry.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Nova Convair

[Lucia Nightfire]

I'm curious if the driver for this feature and animated mesh was more to help reduce lag and scene render memory than it was with the actual demand from users and creators, heh.

[Penny Patton]

I wish I'd made it to that meeting. I'd have a lot to add to the comments at the beginning of the video about how adding bones would impact performance. They're not entirely incorrect, but I always find it agitating that people are willing to write off the addition of new features for fear of how it will impact performance, when the bulk of the SL community seems so adamantly against addressing the issues that are actually dragging down performance right now.

Textures, draw weight, and the general problem of unoptimized content. I'm not sure we need new bones or more attachment points, but whenever someone says we can't have a new feature because of the impact on performance it raises my hackles. Let's seriously address the performance issues we have now then we can talk about what features are or are not feasible due to their impact.

 

 Anyway, don't mean to derail too much. baked textures for mesh will be fantastic, if LL includes the ability to bake materials. Otherwise, people will either just not use the baking feature, or you can say bye-bye to materials on mesh bodies. Neither of which is an acceptable outcome.

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

 Anyway, don't mean to derail too much. baked textures for mesh will be fantastic, if LL includes the ability to bake materials. Otherwise, people will either just not use the baking feature, or you can say bye-bye to materials on mesh bodies. Neither of which is an acceptable outcome.

Because things like freckles and tattoos cause a major difference in specular and normal mapping of the skin.

 

Oh, wait...

[Medhue Simoni]

Nalates also recorded the meeting. I live streamed it, but my stream cut out after 20 some minutes. 

[Medhue Simoni]

7 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

The clothing layer on a mesh body is above the skin and has a shape as clothes would have. That results in a much better look than textures that are painted directly on the skin.

You can not bake a normal and a specular map on the texture. You need a surface for that.

So it's not that easy and old system clothes can not compete with new mesh clothes - except for the ultra-low-graphics users, but it's still very interesting and will allow multi layer stuff without having all that layers in geometry.

 

4 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

Anyway, don't mean to derail too much. baked textures for mesh will be fantastic, if LL includes the ability to bake materials. Otherwise, people will either just not use the baking feature, or you can say bye-bye to materials on mesh bodies. Neither of which is an acceptable outcome.

I really don't think creators are going to use it exactly like the default is used. With this system, we have way more flexibility than that. 

What I predict creators will do is use the baking system to add layers to clothing. The body will stay as mostly just skin, tattoos, freckles, scares, and such, that make sense with the materials on that body, or even on clothing. What this baking system will also bring, is a better way to hide meshes. So, instead of layers up the mesh to be able to alpha it, creators will go back to using a texture to alpha things, like the default does. As far as layers, I don't think layers will be eliminated entirely, but why even make a skin tight layer on a mesh body when you could just fricken model a pare of pants or a shirt, that will look many times better, and you can use the baking system on that also.

I'll just end this with a rant about materials. They are not optional for a "quality" product. Almost everything should have both bump maps and specular maps. Now, yes, the baking system doesn't include materials, but the baking system also doesn't stop anyone from using them. Yes, too, that creators will need to think about how to use the baking system in the smartest way to get the best look with their materials. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Medhue Simoni

[Penny Patton]

On 5/27/2017 at 11:01 AM, Theresa Tennyson said:

Because things like freckles and tattoos cause a major difference in specular and normal mapping of the skin.

 

Oh, wait...

Clothes do. Scars do. Muscles do. Scales and fur do.  A lot does. 

On 5/27/2017 at 0:00 PM, Medhue Simoni said:

 

I really don't think creators are going to use it exactly like the default is used. With this system, we have way more flexibility than that. 

Fair enough, but a baking system with no support for materials is still going to be extremely limited, especially when it comes to no-mod content. 

On 5/27/2017 at 0:00 PM, Medhue Simoni said:

Now, yes, the baking system doesn't include materials, but the baking system also doesn't stop anyone from using them.

Actually, it very well might in some cases. And so it's confirmed that the baking system is being done without materials support? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. It's stuff like this that has me convinced Sansar will be a costly flop.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

Clothes do. Scars do. Muscles do. Scales and fur do.  A lot does. 

Fair enough, but a baking system with no support for materials is still going to be extremely limited, especially when it comes to no-mod content. 

Actually, it very well might in some cases. And so it's confirmed that the baking system is being done without materials support? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. It's stuff like this that has me convinced Sansar will be a costly flop.

Clothes? Use layers. Already done.

Scars, scales, muscles and fur textures? Applier. Already done. Because these things are generally constant and independent of the color of what they're modeling.

Of course, if this really is that important to you, I encourage you to develop a system for baking materials and submit it to the Lab. After all, that's how we got materials in the first place, courtesy of Geenz Spad and the Exodus team. Here's some source code to get you started:

https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-release

Better get cracking. Because we'll all be waiting on you.

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

46 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Clothes? Use layers. Already done.

By "layers" do you mean mesh layers?  Isn't one of the primary reasons LL are implementing this feature to allow creators to stop using mesh layers?

 

49 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Scars, scales, muscles and fur textures? Applier. Already done. Because these things are generally constant and independent of the color of what they're modeling.

Since the purpose of a specular map is to vary the color and brightness of the light being reflected off the object, and those change based on the colors in the diffuse map, you need to be able to apply a new specular map when you change the diffuse map if you include any color information in the specular map.

 

While I can see this new feature reducing the number of polygons required for mesh bodies and lowering the number of textures being displayed per avatar, it does seem a little underwhelming when compared to other systems that have multiple texture layers, separate mask channels/maps, different blending/tiling options, etc.  

It would be nice if they added some extra functionality like the ability to set texture scale on a "clothing layer" so we can use smaller seamless tiling textures as base textures and the ability to set texture offsets and toggle tiling on and off so we can use additional layers for decal maps like detailing, shading, logos, etc.  Adding that sort of functionality would at least give creators a viable alternative to using 1024x1024 textures on everything, which I suspect would have as much impact on performance as removing the additional polygons used to create mesh layers on bodies, and if they were to extend the feature to non-worn items too then it could potentially be used to improve upon/optimize a great deal of existing SL content.

[Theresa Tennyson]

23 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

By "layers" do you mean mesh layers?  Isn't one of the primary reasons LL are implementing this feature to allow creators to stop using mesh layers?

 

Since the purpose of a specular map is to vary the color and brightness of the light being reflected off the object, and those change based on the colors in the diffuse map, you need to be able to apply a new specular map when you change the diffuse map if you include any color information in the specular map.

 

While I can see this new feature reducing the number of polygons required for mesh bodies and lowering the number of textures being displayed per avatar, it does seem a little underwhelming when compared to other systems that have multiple texture layers, separate mask channels/maps, different blending/tiling options, etc.  

It would be nice if they added some extra functionality like the ability to set texture scale on a "clothing layer" so we can use smaller seamless tiling textures as base textures and the ability to set texture offsets and toggle tiling on and off so we can use additional layers for decal maps like detailing, shading, logos, etc.  Adding that sort of functionality would at least give creators a viable alternative to using 1024x1024 textures on everything, which I suspect would have as much impact on performance as removing the additional polygons used to create mesh layers on bodies, and if they were to extend the feature to non-worn items too then it could potentially be used to improve upon/optimize a great deal of existing SL content.

Here's your code - it can be a race! Fun!

https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-release

My post was largely a response to the sort of person whose stock reply to everything is, "Well, they should have done that too. Stoopids," without taking into account the amount of effort required, existing conditions, having a coherent plan or offering to do significant work - basically, it's a hat/cattle ratio problem which, considering some people who show this tendency, can be a bit ironic.

(And actually there's murmuring about also extending it to non-worn items already, but that raises various permissions issues, etc.)

[ChinRey]

On 27.5.2017 at 10:57 AM, Lucia Nightfire said:

I'm curious if the driver for this feature and animated mesh was more to help reduce lag and scene render memory than it was with the actual demand from users and creators, heh.

I think reducing lag is an actual demand from users.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

33 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

My post was largely a response to the sort of person whose stock reply to everything is, "Well, they should have done that too. Stoopids," without taking into account the amount of effort required, existing conditions, having a coherent plan or offering to do significant work - basically, it's a hat/cattle ratio problem which, considering some people who show this tendency, can be a bit ironic.

Yes I caught the overall tone of your post but opted to ignore the snark since I assume it's a product of some weird sort of virtual world Stockholm Syndrome.  I really can't think of any other possible reason for someone to suggest that it's the customers job to do the work of those employed by the company whom they're paying to provide a service!?  Or are you suggesting that the continued viability and growth of SL as a platform is purely of benefit to its users and in no way is LL profiting from its existence?