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LishaJoya Haven

my land estate want to charge the 30L that LL already charges for "show place in search" HELP!! i need to know the TOS for land

Question

Ok i got a notice from my land estate stating this

Hey guys and dolls! If you rent land with Excalibur Rentals you have the option of show place in search for L$30 per week. However, in order to have this option checked for your business or desired needs you need to IM A STAFF MEMBER so that the fee can be added to your rent. If a place is found to have this box checked it WILL be unchecked without the proper requirements being met. Any questions please contact an Excalibur Rentals Agent. Have a great day!

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 they cant charge me 30L per parcel i PAY to LL aready and get double charged and threaten to uncheck my lands that i PAID the 30 L  x2 to LL....then pay that to the estate too??? UM no... i will move if this is true

 its against SL TOS--right??

 

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Also this is their covenant

Welcome to Excalibur Rentals, Provider of this Island Estate. Established 2005

***THERE ARE NO REFUNDS***

THIS IS A MIXED USE SIM

LAND RESELLING IS NOT ALLOWED. IF YOU ATTEMPT THIS YOU WILL BE IMMEDIATELY  BANNED FROM ALL EXCALIBUR PROPERTIES AND AN ABUSE REPORT FOR SCAMMING WILL BE FILED WITH LINDEN LABS.

**This is subject to change as we see fit, or to meet SL TOS rules, we will give as much notice as possible to any changes through group notices, make sure to regularly check group notices**

This region is subject to Excalibur Rentals Rules and Regulations as well as Second life's TOS: Any violation could result in a repossession of property. For any questions, exemptions, or to pay land tier fee's visit the Excalibur Rentals Main office. You can also simply IM our manager bot Cherri Levenque to have your questions forwarded to all of our staff online or not for a quick response.

We try not to place overly burdensome regulations on our residents, so we don't have a lot. What we do have is for a good reason.
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Real Life Laws: (Yes, RL Sucks and regulates our escape from it)
Before setting up a business, club, or group, check the laws in your City, State, Country. It is YOUR responsibility not to violate any laws governing you, because of the anonymity of secondlife we cannot possibly know what rules apply to you, and even if we  knew where you are from, we couldn't possibly know all of your laws.
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If the region is classified as Residential you may not put in a store/ club/ casino ect.. Ask a manager for any exemptions.  If the region is classified as mixed, buildings may not be any taller than two stories.

In all cases make sure the maturity level meets the kind of use you will need!

Only commercial and mixed are available for a store. If you wish to have a casino you must carefully follow SL's TOS and meet their requirements. We may require you to rent a full homestead or Full Island if you wish to own a club, we will also have to go through the application process for skill gaming and do not plan to unless the need arises. 
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy

If you wish to run a club, depending on your traffic we will require you to rent at least 1/4th of a full sim.
Up to 25 av's 1/4th Full sim
Up to 50 Av's 1/2   Full sim
Up to 75 Av's 3/4th Full Sim
Up to 100 Full sim.
20 and under and you could run it on a full homestead. **Not recommended but it's your club**
Be sure of what you will need and plan ahead, it can be difficult to upgrade in the future.

Sky boxes are allowed, we just ask that it be placed over 1000 meters. In some cases we may ask that a home placed on the land that is used as a sky box.  ***No boxed-skyboxes are allowed below 1000 meters.***

We ask that you respect a 16 sqm easement around your property lines to avoid issues with neighbors. For any questions/ exemptions speak with a manager. 

Fences cannot be any higher than waist high, or 1 meter.  Think of a picket fence no more than waist to shoulder height on a normal sized avatar.  In addition, prim tree walls/single prim surrounds are not allowed; this isn't mainland- there are ways to cloak your parcel so that the renters cannot be seen.  Prim/sculpt, or mesh trees, hedges or bushes themselves are, however approved.  We will however make an exemption for small fences.   Talk to one of the staff to check for an exemption.

**Any objects visibly across property boundaries will be returned at our discretion.**

Bots are allowed as long as they have a purpose, we DO NOT allow bots to increase traffic. Read the SL TOS on bots for what is and is not allowed. 
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6.3 Additional rules of conduct apply to users of Second Life:

In addition to the rules set forth in Sections 6.1 and 6.2 above, you agree that you will not:

(i) Use robots or other automated means to increase traffic to any Virtual Land;
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If you have any objects causing a large amount of lag we will ask you to turn off scripts or remove the object, if it continues to be a problem we will remove it for you with a warning.

Orbs: As long as you know how to use them and don't OMFGBBQ your neighbor we allow them, if we get complaints from your neighbors that they are getting slammed by your orb we will return it. Ask a manager for help or questions on orbs.

Ban lines: We would rather you not have them but it's up to you.

Alternatively: We run a bot affiliate in our main office, come take a look at them and see if any will fit your needs, you can also look into getting a plug in that will make it a security bot that will work without harming your neighbors.

Prims: If you need more contact one of our managers and we can add more provided we have any available at the time.

Base Prim rates: *Subject to change based on L$ values that are beyond our control*

4096 sqm: 937 Prims: L$1218
Additional prims are L$ 1.40 per prim.

For additional prim or more land, contact one of our staff and we will get back to you to help with your needs.
**Being able to add additional land and prims is dependent on availability. Plan ahead and know what you need. If you know you will need more buy a parcel next to an empty one, buy two and combine them, or contact a manager about finding land in a different region**

If you need a full region contact management, since islands are a large investment we may have you pay a long term lease to protect our business.

If you have any unanswered questions, please IM our staff and we will answer your questions asap.

Thank you for your interest,

EXCALIBUR RENTALS

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17 answers to this question

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As someone who rents from Excalibur I am deeply saddened to see this thread.. All you had to do was ask one of the CSRs or a manager and they would tell you this only applies to mainland rentals as they are NOT sold" to the renter and the land stays in the Excalibur group name. Therefore the group owner pays the 30L fee not the renter. Estate and island renters of Excalibur do indeed "own" the parcel they rent and can deed it to their own group and pay the 30L fee directly to LL. 

Seriously, ask your rental agent before spouting off in a forum. 

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9 minutes ago, LishaJoya Haven said:

[ .... ]

 they cant charge me 30L per parcel i PAY to LL aready and get double charged and threaten to uncheck my lands that i PAID the 30 L  x2 to LL....then pay that to the estate too??? UM no... i will move if this is true

 its against SL TOS--right??

[ .... ]

Um... No.  IMO, that's not very nice, and it's a poke-in-the-eye business practice, but read the TOS (sect. 4.8).  Here's the ONLY restriction on what a landowner can do (I'll highlight the important part):

" You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with these Terms of Service, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify these Terms of Service. "

In other words, it's the landowner's land and she can do anything she wants as long as it doesn't violate some other part of the TOS.  At least your landowner put a lot of her rules in writing, in the covenant.  Technically, she doesn't even have to do that, and she can change her mind at any time without notice.  You can't appeal her decision to LL because unless there is a TOS violation involved, they'll simply ignore the complaint as a "dispute between residents".

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, LishaJoya Haven said:

Ok i got a notice from my land estate stating this

Hey guys and dolls! If you rent land with Excalibur Rentals you have the option of show place in search for L$30 per week. However, in order to have this option checked for your business or desired needs you need to IM A STAFF MEMBER so that the fee can be added to your rent. If a place is found to have this box checked it WILL be unchecked without the proper requirements being met. Any questions please contact an Excalibur Rentals Agent. Have a great day!

My understanding of the notice is that you must put forth some effort (which I presume also requires desire) to have your rental property listed in search. If you do NOT check the box OR  do NOT IM the Excalibur staff, you won't be given a search listing and you won't be charged for one. If you DO want to be listed in search, you must check the box,AND IM the staff, AND meet their requirements for a search listing. Checking the box alone won't do.

The Excalibur folks are watching over the desirability of their properties. They do through both the covenant and editorial control over advertising content. All of that seems quite reasonable to me.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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OK, there are really two questions here:  1.  What are they doing, and 2. Can they do that?

1.  What they are doing:  As the actual estate owner, THEY pay the $L30 per week to show any parcels in Search.  What they are doing is, if you want your land to be shown in Search, they're passing that cost on to you.  You are NOT being charged both by the estate and by Linden Lab.

2.  Can they do that?  You bet.  Even if you WERE being charged by LL, they could do that.  A land owner can do WHATEVER THEY WANT, including kicking you off the land and keeping your money, if you make a big enough pain of yourself.  So be calm and polite in your dealings with the staff!  Excalibur is a long-time estate and they run a reputable business, so don't jump too quickly to the conclusion that you're being fleeced.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

As the actual estate owner, THEY pay the $L30 per week to show any parcels in Search.  What they are doing is, if you want your land to be shown in Search, they're passing that cost on to you.  You are NOT being charged both by the estate and by Linden Lab.

Doesn't that depend on how the parcels are handled by the Estate? I'm a Mainlander so maybe shouldn't generalize, but if my tenants want to list a parcel it will definitely cost me the L$30 / week, not them... but also not Governor Linden, the Mainland estate owner. I *think* I pay because I'm the landowner. Also, for Group owned land that fee is split among those memes with the Group Liability ability.

So maybe this Estate rents parcels by "selling" them, in which case the OP *would* double-pay.

Or not.

Edited by Qie Niangao

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A very simple solution is for YOU to not pay the $30 to Linden Lab and notify your landlord that you do indeed want to pay THEM the $30 so that YOU can have your land in search (sorry, confusing day here LOL).

I specifically asked my landlord to do that for me (not Excalibur) and have been happily paying that $30 to my rental box for about a year.

If you want to make your own CLASSIFIED ad I am guessing you can do that and pay the $50 minimum charge.  I really didn't read through your whole rental agreement, but it seems like a safe bet. 

Note that this is a fairly typical way to do things with rentals. 

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2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Doesn't that depend on how the parcels are handled by the Estate? I'm a Mainlander so maybe shouldn't generalize, but if my tenants want to list a parcel it will definitely cost me the L$30 / week, not them... but also not Governor Linden, the Mainland estate owner. I *think* I pay because I'm the landowner. Also, for Group owned land that fee is split among those memes with the Group Liability ability.

So maybe this Estate rents parcels by "selling" them, in which case the OP *would* double-pay.

Or not.

I'm a mainlander too...and I do pay the $L30 per week for any parcels shown in Search.  I provide this service free of cost to the few tenants who operate businesses on their parcels.  I think that the estate owner pays the listing fee for parcels on their estate, just like we landlords do on the Mainland, but I will check, and if it's different, I'll report back!

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, LishaJoya Haven said:

 

Ok i got a notice from my land estate stating this

Hey guys and dolls! If you rent land with Excalibur Rentals you have the option of show place in search for L$30 per week. However, in order to have this option checked for your business or desired needs you need to IM A STAFF MEMBER so that the fee can be added to your rent. If a place is found to have this box checked it WILL be unchecked without the proper requirements being met. Any questions please contact an Excalibur Rentals Agent. Have a great day!

 

I've never listed a parcel, so I don't how it works, but the wording of the Excalibur notice makes me believe that tenants can't actually list parcels unless they're approved by Excalibur. And that makes sense to me. They wouldn't want someone wrecking the neighborhood with tasteless design (covered by covenant) or tacky advertising (covered by that notice).

I don't think this is a matter of being double charged, I think it's a matter of being disallowed to list at all unless your content has been approved by Excalibur.

What am I missing?

Edited by Madelaine McMasters

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4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

So maybe this Estate rents parcels by "selling" them, in which case the OP *would* double-pay.

I rent a homestead from one of the Chung estates.  All the parcels are in my name as owner, ie they were "sold" to me.
For all parcels I have set to "Show in search", the Parcel Directory Fee comes out of my L$ balance, not the estates & it's paid to Governor Linden.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

I rent a homestead from one of the Chung estates.  All the parcels are in my name as owner, ie they were "sold" to me.
For all parcels I have set to "Show in search", the Parcel Directory Fee comes out of my L$ balance, not the estates & it's paid to Governor Linden.

 

 

Oh, OK.  In that case, the OP would seem to have a point!  LishaJoya, you should IM or send a notecard to the estate owner and ask for clarification about this.

EDIT:  I did a little research.  Excalibur rents both Mainland and Private Estate parcels.  If the OP's parcel is on a Mainland region, then Excalibur is almost certainly paying the $L30 Show in Search fee to LL, and would be justified in asking for additional rent to cover it.  If on an estate, then the OP may have a case to argue that they're being double charged.  (But bear in mind, the landlord CAN do that if they want.  Not very nice of them, but it's their call.)

Edited by Lindal Kidd

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20 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Oh, OK.  In that case, the OP would seem to have a point!  LishaJoya, you should IM or send a notecard to the estate owner and ask for clarification about this.

EDIT:  I did a little research.  Excalibur rents both Mainland and Private Estate parcels.  If the OP's parcel is on a Mainland region, then Excalibur is almost certainly paying the $L30 Show in Search fee to LL, and would be justified in asking for additional rent to cover it.  If on an estate, then the OP may have a case to argue that they're being double charged.  (But bear in mind, the landlord CAN do that if they want.  Not very nice of them, but it's their call.)

The estate regions could be renting out group owned parcels too, where all parcels are owned by the same group & the tenant gets added to the group & arranges to have a certain land size & prim allocation which they pay for at  the tier box.  In that case the parcel directory fee would come out of the group members balances who have the "Pay group liabilities & receive group dividends" ability in the group.  At least I think that's how it works for group owned land?
If that's the case then the tenant shouldn't be paying any parcel directory fees directly to Gov Linden.

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Hmmm ... the 30L per week listing fee has nothing to do with rent. It is an additional feature that costs additional Lindens. I do not see how it is charging a person twice. It is a service fee, not part of the rent. If one chooses not to have one's parcel show in search, the fee is not incurred. It does not seem fair to expect a landlord to pick up that fee. That landlord could have hundreds of tenants, each wanting the parcel to show in search. At 30L a parcel, that would add up significantly. The 30L per week for a listing in search is a cost of doing business.

 

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Yeah, I wish the OP would come back and report exactly how their rental is set up. If they're able to directly pay LL the L$30/wk fee, I'm pretty sure they "bought" the estate land -- in which case, again, it *would* be double-paying if they also had to pay that to the landlord. My hunch is that Whirly has it right, and that the landlord in this case never intended that such "sold" parcels should pay the landlord anything, but that "rented" parcels would -- and I agree, to offer a good deal to those renters who don't need the listing, it's best to make that a surcharge for those who do.

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2 hours ago, Nikolai Warden said:

Hmmm ... the 30L per week listing fee has nothing to do with rent. It is an additional feature that costs additional Lindens. I do not see how it is charging a person twice. It is a service fee, not part of the rent. If one chooses not to have one's parcel show in search, the fee is not incurred. It does not seem fair to expect a landlord to pick up that fee. That landlord could have hundreds of tenants, each wanting the parcel to show in search. At 30L a parcel, that would add up significantly. The 30L per week for a listing in search is a cost of doing business.

 

The OP believes that if she follows her landlord's policies, she will BOTH be paying the search fee to LL, AND paying an additional $L30 a week to her landlord.  That's the whole point of the discussion!

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On 5/19/2017 at 0:12 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

The OP believes that if she follows her landlord's policies, she will BOTH be paying the search fee to LL, AND paying an additional $L30 a week to her landlord.  That's the whole point of the discussion

Yes, I realize that is the point of the discussion, but from what I read of the original post, that does not seem to be the case, and the OP's belief is an erroneous one, as you pointed out earlier in the thread ...

 

On 5/15/2017 at 2:02 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

 What they are doing:  As the actual estate owner, THEY pay the $L30 per week to show any parcels in Search.  What they are doing is, if you want your land to be shown in Search, they're passing that cost on to you.  You are NOT being charged both by the estate and by Linden Lab

 

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4 hours ago, Nikolai Warden said:

Yes, I realize that is the point of the discussion, but from what I read of the original post, that does not seem to be the case, and the OP's belief is an erroneous one, as you pointed out earlier in the thread ...

That's been my reading of this as well, the OP has misunderstood the notice from Excalibur.

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Posted (edited)

I rent from Excalibur, my other half is one of the GMs for the company. The notice was sent out yes. However mainland that Excaibur Rentals rents to people is deeded to THEIR rental group, mean Excalibur Rentals' group. The 30L for each parcel comes out of Tyr's pocket, not the person that rents the land. The only person paying LL for each parcel that's from Excalibur Rentals mainland section is Tyr. He also has decided to have something that covers that paid EXTRA from his pocket so that ALL renters on mainland can now do this free of charge. So it's now an added perk of renting with Excalibur Rentals. I have to agree with Drake though, you should always contact an agent or manager before just assuming these things.

Edited by Krystalin
typo
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