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Phil Deakins

SL isn't the same any more

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7 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

So since this has turned into a mesh creation topic... :)

If somebody was sitting on a copy of blender, and a book on getting started in blender. Assuming they first finished that book - or even if something different is recommended...

For a person at day 1... what should I do if I want to learn mesh making for SL?

Where are the top resources, of places to go in SL and join a class, or what have you?

I made a short series of video tutorial for just that purpose. They are pretty much from scratch but finding a tutorial about the INTERFACE would likely be very handy. They are SLOW and most important keystrokes are also in text.

 

They are here:  https://www.slartist.com/browse-the-tutorial-chic-videos-1-date.html

You want the ones with the "blender" graphic and most likely to start with the first one (they are in reverse order like a blog). 

Hope that helps. 

It is also important to note that while there are plenty of Blender tutorials, not too many are about making items for Second Life, so you can easily be lead down a "dangerous" (smiling here) path of densely modeled mesh which will not work here.

Good luck. 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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10 hours ago, Deltango Vale said:

I've been in SL almost daily for more than ten years. I've seen the changes coming down the pike, seen them imposed (usually against strong protest from the residents) and seen the results (usually bad). Regarding mesh, I thought it was interesting. When it arrived, I tried the clothes and it was a disaster. It was as if I had gone to MANGO and the salesgirl had said I'd have to gain five pounds to try on a pair of jeans and quit the gym to fit into a tank top. Meanwhile, she's advising my friend to consider breast enhancement and liposuction before attempting to try on an evening dress. Sorry, I'm not going to visit a plastic surgeon before buying clothes - in RL or SL.

Regarding Phil's point, he's right. The whole point of SL - and one of the key factors in its success - was the ability of the average person to be creative either through building or personal expression (fashion, animations, home decoration). For clothes, it meant mixing and matching, modifying prims, even creating accessories oneself. So, yes, while one needs to be able to adapt to change, not all change is good. Those who refuse to adjust to bad changes are not necessarily old and stubborn. They may be simply unwilling to give up sirloin steak for hamburger.

Like the last of the good ol' puffer trains,
I'm the last of the blood and sweat brigade,
And I don't know where I'm going, or why I came.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

I'm the last of the good old renegades.
All my friends are all middle class and grey,
[note: possibly written right after the introduction of server-side baking.]
But I live in a museum, so I'm okay.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

Like the last of the good ol' choo-choo trains,
Huff and puff 'till I blow this world away,
And I'm gonna keep on rollin' till my dying day.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

Like the last of the good ol' puffer trains,
I'm the last of the soot and scum brigade,
And all this peaceful living is drivin' me insane.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

(Ray Davies, Noma Music, Inc./Hi-Count Music, Inc. BMI)

 

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2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Like the last of the good ol' puffer trains,
I'm the last of the blood and sweat brigade,
And I don't know where I'm going, or why I came.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

I'm the last of the good old renegades.
All my friends are all middle class and grey,
[note: possibly written right after the introduction of server-side baking.]
But I live in a museum, so I'm okay.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

Like the last of the good ol' choo-choo trains,
Huff and puff 'till I blow this world away,
And I'm gonna keep on rollin' till my dying day.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

Like the last of the good ol' puffer trains,
I'm the last of the soot and scum brigade,
And all this peaceful living is drivin' me insane.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.
I'm the last of the good old fashioned steam-powered trains.

(Ray Davies, Noma Music, Inc./Hi-Count Music, Inc. BMI)

I can find what I want in anything...

She asked me maybe I could share her sorrow
For all the men that tried to treat her wrong
Though just a baby, awaiting her tomorrow
It's rock me baby, rock me baby, all night long

She needs an answer to her confusion
Someone to guide her with tenderness
But when she's askin' for a solution
All that she gets, you know, is something like this

I don't know where we come from
Don't know where we're goin' to
But if all this should have a reason
We would be the last to know

So let's just hope there is a promised land
Hang on 'til then
As best as you can

Ev'rybody's ills, you know it fills her with compassion
That's why she tries to save the world alone
She helps the needy in her own fashion
And tries to give them all her own

She needs an answer to her confusion
Someone to guide her with tenderness
But when she's askin' for a solution
All that she gets, you know, is
Something like this

I don't know where we come from
Don't know where we're goin' to
But if all this should have a reason
We would be the last to know

So let's just hope there is a promised land
Hang on 'til then
As best as you can

 

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11 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I made a short series of video tutorial for just that purpose. They are pretty much from scratch but finding a tutorial about the INTERFACE would likely be very handy. They are SLOW and most important keystrokes are also in text.

 

They are here:  https://www.slartist.com/browse-the-tutorial-chic-videos-1-date.html

You want the ones with the "blender" graphic and most likely to start with the first one (they are in reverse order like a blog). 

Hope that helps. 

It is also important to note that while there are plenty of Blender tutorials, not too many are about making items for Second Life, so you can easily be lead down a "dangerous" (smiling here) path of densely modeled mesh which will not work here.

Good luck. 

 

awww that's cool. Im going to give the link to one of my best friend. She bought some blender courses on the web but finally she gave up, so maybe your tutos will give her the willing to dive in again. 

to answer Pussycat question, id say there is no a single way for learning blender. We are all different. Some will be perfect wtih a book, some other need to see in action so videos will work better.

Imho what i would ideally have needed is a rl teacher in a rl class... 

i first tried alone with tutos, but english is not my native language so it failed.

i found then a french guy with a youtube channel with tutos for blender for SL... but it failed too... it was so long... that was videos done during classes, it was long long long and in the end i was lost. Too much practice, not enough theory

I bought some french books about Blender.... it was really too much blurry for me... too much theory not enough practice.

So i bought a Marevelous Designer licence and it's been really easy to create some clothes...

But.... when i came back to blender in order to rig them. It's been impossible... because as Chic said, i was on the path of densely modeled mesh lol... no way to rig that... and even less to import that in sl.

So i gave up for some month. Disapointed of course, and not sure i will try again.

Then one day i saw in the french blender group the french guy from youtube sent a notice saying hes going to give classes again. I dived in !!!! And then its been 2 X 5 hours per week of classes.. painful... really painful... a torture... i was doing nothing good... it was coming...I thought that maybe i wasnt done for that and i had to accept the idea i will never be able to do anything in blender...

Then after some months of classes our teacher showed us how to render to texture on our object with the Blender Cycle engine. And that day has been the THE day i got the blender mind lol.... I was so amazed by how beautiful rendering this software was able to do that wow !  So next class, i ve been working better on my object just because i knew that at the end i will have something to texture with this fantastic blender feature (Cycle)..

So it began here... and i was doing better things each time.

but after one year the classes stopped and found myself not enough at ease with the software to create alone.

So i ve been discouraged again... i had no idea where to start.... it always start from a cube, that's what my teacher taught us, but it was a hell to figure out how from this cube i will end with the object i had in mind. 

So here, i thought i was needing a bit of theory.. so i found a website with a few classes in text. Not for SL specifically. But from the start again... and i followed something like 5 lessons... and it started. For good.

Of course, im still a beguiner and its really exciting bec every new item is done with more ease and always better than the previous one. 

I thought i would never say this before, but yes, i can tell i have super fun with blender now. We are friends. Well sometimes its a bit of a sado-maso relationship lol... as this pesky software still likes to torture me. But the more i use it, the less its a pain. 

Im super proud of myself because really, if some years ago you told me that i will one day be able to do smth in blender i would have laughed insanely. 

I think one thing that helped me a lot is the day i accepted the idea i had to make SIMPLE. Simple objects at first. Simple but well done. And go slowly. One thing at a time. Step by step. Slowly but surely. Take my time. Stop working on smth if its failing and do a break. Think to it after and come back and usually i know how to do straight away. 

Finally i find it passionating. It's a challenge everytime. It's a passionating investigation everytime. its fun ... its rewarding... And i never thought i could say this one day but i do. 

SL changes made me push my limits way beyond what i thought possible and really im thanksful to that.

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36 minutes ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

I think one thing that helped me a lot is the day i accepted the idea i had to make SIMPLE. Simple objects at first. Simple but well done. And go slowly. One thing at a time. Step by step. Slowly but surely. Take my time. Stop working on smth if its failing and do a break. Think to it after and come back and usually i know how to do straight away. 

Well I TRIED to use the double quote thing including your bit about PAINFUL as I do get that, but I haven't mastered how to get the quotes to open in a reply. Will ask for a "how to" on that thread.

I think your story is similar to a lot of stories. I "tried" Blender WAY before I "tackled" Blender. Back then the interface was abysmal (yes, I know there are plenty of folks that still think it is horrible but it was WORSE then). There weren't as many tutorials and they weren't all that good. Probably about a year after mesh came to SL I decided to explore it again. I was bored as I have ALWAYS (RL too) needed a project at hand.

That time I gave myself a month to learn. I spent all day with it and while I may have done some other work, it wasn't much. I was gong to GET THIS! :D.  Somewhere along the way -- maybe two weeks in after I had finally figured out how to get a texture on a mesh in SL (remember not much info on the web at that time) I came to the realization that I would  really love it once I could DO it well. The keystroke learning was painful, but as my friend Chandra told me (learning about at the same time but for clothes) "You will LOVE them when you learn them as it is SO much faster". So I kept a sheet of the ones most used on my desk and eventually learned them.  Note that at the end of the month I could make some very basic things but had no idea about LODs, physic models or optimizing mesh. Since my things then were all pretty cubelike, the uploader did a pretty good job. 

I bonded with Blender a few years ago but I definitely agree that it wasn't really LOVE until Cycles came into being. That was another steep learning curve as the Blender community was more or less learning Cycles from scratch. It was again, as you said PAINFUL, and looking back on things I made a couple of years ago when I started Cycles-- well they are not great. I spent much of my time in Opensim then where things are free, so my learning wasn't costly anyway.

Eventually I got my workflow down (when you get to the point where you are discussing workflow with other Blender folks, you know you are getting somewhere LOL) and now on a good day even making complex things, I sometimes have NO issues (OMG - none? Well on a GOOD day).

We all have our stories I am sure, and your idea of keeping it simple is the best plan I think. 

My new tutorials use the Cycles Render and we start SO slowly that the only thing we do in the first lesson is get a cube with a texture on it to the beta grid LOL.    By the end there is a basic explanation of how to set up a very usable node group and lighting (all VERY important in Cycles). I may add to the tutorials in the future when I get bored again. They take a LOT of time.

 

I agree with your teacher about starting with a cube (at first anyway). I was a box modeler for a long time. Now though I am more adventurous with curves and special shapes (new to Blender) so don't feel too constrained by those first rules. 

Above all make some gorgeous textures and soft shadows! :D

 

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9 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

 

My new tutorials use the Cycles Render and we start SO slowly that the only thing we do in the first lesson is get a cube with a texture on it to the beta grid LOL.    By the end there is a basic explanation of how to set up a very usable node group and lighting (all VERY important in Cycles). I may add to the tutorials in the future when I get bored again. They take a LOT of time.

 

I agree with your teacher about starting with a cube (at first anyway). I was a box modeler for a long time. Now though I am more adventurous with curves and special shapes (new to Blender) so don't feel too constrained by those first rules. 

Above all make some gorgeous textures and soft shadows! :D

 

oh and i will also check your tutorials (specially bec you said there is a text version. Really understand talken english is not possible for me, lol). I m always interested in reading smth even if its for beguiners because really, my experience did prove me that i always learn smth new. 

Because Blender is like Photoshop or a lot of other software : there is never only one way to reach a goal. But a lot of different ways. All leading to the same result (maybe not always exactly but still same value).

So i will look at them of course, as soon as ill have a bit of time for that.

And yes, i also sometimes starts with a curve (i find them quite friendly lol), i rarely try other shapes that said, im always super afraid it turns in too much vertices in the end. 

For Cycles and nodes, i find a lot of excellent threads in blenderguru. Some ppl there are like heros for me lol... 

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31 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well I TRIED to use the double quote thing including your bit about PAINFUL as I do get that, but I haven't mastered how to get the quotes to open in a reply. Will ask for a "how to" on that thread.

 

31 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I think your story is similar to a lot of stories.

One way of doing "the double quote thing" is to highlight and quote them seperately, as above.

Another way is to quote one bit, and then copy and paste another bit into it. E.g:-

33 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well I TRIED to use the double quote thing including your bit about PAINFUL as I do get that, but I haven't mastered how to get the quotes to open in a reply. Will ask for a "how to" on that thread.

[...]

That time I gave myself a month to learn.

 

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16 minutes ago, Trinity Yazimoto said:

oh and i will also check your tutorials (specially bec you said there is a text version. Really understand talken english is not possible for me, lol). I m always interested in reading smth even if its for beguiners because really, my experience did prove me that i always learn smth new. 

Well actually there isn't a text version of the tutorials bu there is text written IN the tutorial as an overlay. See below.

textontutorials.jpg.e898cff4f3b8c74ed5360e5fb244319f.jpg

And it looks like it took us three lessons to get a crate on the beta grid with two materials LOL.  These are short videos purposefully. 

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10 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

 

One way of doing "the double quote thing" is to highlight and quote them seperately, as above.

Another way is to quote one bit, and then copy and paste another bit into it. E.g:-

 

Thanks. There is that "multiquote button" and you can apparently click and add and click and add and then paste. That was the new skill iI was trying for. :D

Haven't had time to look that up. I can always do it your way if needed. I haven't had much occasion to use really. Thanks!

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AND to bring us back around to the OP somewhat as we have ventured astray as long threads sometimes will, there are ALSO Prim Building Tutorials on that same page. These were made in Opensim but are of course very applicable to SL . The ones with the hammer and PIF on there are the prim building tutorials. They go from a crate again (love those crates) to a full house with door etc. First one at the end of the list like a blog again.

https://www.slartist.com/browse-the-tutorial-chic-videos-1-date.html

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I think that Chic's and Trinity's posts (on this page) about their experiences with 3D modelling pretty much sum up what I started this thread about. Mesh objects in SL are so much better than prim-made objects, that SL simply isn't the same any more. Deltango's post at the bottom of the previous page states it very well, and Chic and Trinity's posts show why it's not the same any more.

I'm not against SL evolving, I'm not against mesh, and I don't have a hankering for 'the good old days'. I started the thread merely to point out that new people coming in for the last few years find a fundamentally different SL to what we older users found when we arrived. When we came, we could do what everyone else could do, and we could do it straight away. We got better with practise if we wanted to, but we could do it straight away. Since mesh became the norm, that is no longer the case - not without going through the lengthy times and pains that Chic and Trinity described. Although I'm not against what SL has become, I do think it's a pity that it's lost that part of it's original fundamental nature.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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5 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I think that Chic's and Trinity's posts (on this page) about their experiences with 3D modelling pretty much sum up what I started this thread about. Mesh objects in SL are so much better than prim-made objects, that SL simply isn't the same any more. Deltango's post at the bottom of the previous page states it very well, and Chic and Trinity's posts explain why it's not the same any more.

I'm not against SL evolving, I'm not against mesh, and I don't have a hankering for 'the good old days'. I started the thread merely to point out that new people coming in for the last few years find a completely different SL to what we older users found when we arrived. When we came, we could do what everyone else could do, and we could do it straight away. We got better with practise if we wanted to, but we could do it straight away. Since mesh became the norm, that is no longer the case - not without going through the lengthy times and pains that Chic and Trinity described.

Creators DO have to be more focused and willing to put in time on what has become the replacement for prim-based objects, agreed. Mesh making is certainly not for everyone and it is jarring for returnees -- a new world. There are STILL plenty of creative outlets that be done as they were in the old days, but again -- those were never a part of inworld building. Poses and animations is one avenue. I still use the free QAvimator of LONG ago to make my animations. Nothing has changed there. Texture garments are still popular (now with the added appliers for mesh bodies if one chooses). Music such as DJing and dancing and live performance -- the list goes on. 

I still use prims. And I still contend that you could have a quite lovely sim JUST with prims (no sculpts, no mesh) IF you were a skilled texturer.  I am not planning on making a sim installation to prove that, but in my mind anyway it is truth. And yes this has been a very good philosophical thread!

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6 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Chic Aeon I don't see a multiquote button. Where is it?

You highlight some text, then click on the plus sign and then highlight more and add it. Somewhere along the way you see "multiquote" pop up (how I found out it was available). But I can't figure out how to paste in and I am off to Blender so that won't be happening today LOL.

Good luck. 

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24 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Although I'm not against what SL has become, I do think it's a pity that it's lost that part of it's original fundamental nature.

I was editing my post when you quoted it, so you didn't see the final result. The quote above was added.

Yes, there are still areas that mesh hasn't touched, that can still be done as they always were. But that's not the point. Building has changed radically, and building was a fundamental part of SL. Creating a table that is as good as the tables you can buy in shops has changed radically. SL is fundamentally different to what it was. It has lost the building part of its original, and very fundamental nature, which I think is a shame.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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10 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

You highlight some text, then click on the plus sign and then highlight more and add it. Somewhere along the way you see "multiquote" pop up (how I found out it was available). But I can't figure out how to paste in and I am off to Blender so that won't be happening today LOL.

Good luck. 

I may be a bit obtuse at the moment but I can't see a plus sign when I highlight some text. All I see is the 'quote this' floater. And there's no plus sign anywhere in the reply box.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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I remember one day in SL I met a new resident in a Sandbox, and he asked me how to import mesh models. Well it was in 2008, or 2009, and the only answer I could gave him was, you can't. The only thing that comes close to import models are so called sculpted prims, which are imported as a rgb image. And I rezzed a prim and applied a sculptie map, and it turned into a banana.  ^_^

That guys reaction was just OMG WTF and he logged off immediately.

Long story short; for those who are familiar with 3d modeling/texturing, Second Life was a nightmare. That has changed indeed.

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1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I may be a bit obtuse at the moment but I can't see a plus sign when I highlight some text. All I see is the 'quote this' floater. And there's no plus sign anywhere in the reply box.

Photo there and hopefully an answer eventually :D

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@Phil Deakins and @Chic Aeon - I've had my brain in tutorial mode all day for a post on my blog, so I've just screencapped how I do it. I don't highlight any specific text and then click the + sign next to the quote link; I just click the + itself to multi-quote, and then edit the resultant text.

Example:

Clicking the + sign below Phil's post makes that 'quote 1 post' icon pop up in the lower-right of the screen (arrowed) -

quoting01.jpg.a1406af8ce45d10ecc2c05765039e178.jpg

Then, clicking the + sign below Chic's post changes the 'quote 1 post' to 'quote 2 posts' -

quoting02.jpg.4caa1ba2111c1470147dbc7f2a3a8b9c.jpg

Keep clicking the + signs below posts you want to quote and, when you're done, click that 'quote [x] posts' icon and all of them will appear in your reply box -

quoting03.jpg.d2856876c57878dff06af994410742a8.jpg

From there I just remove the text I don't want to quote, and add my replies in between.

 

Edited by Skell Dagger
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Aha. So it's for quoting multiple posts, and not for quoting multiple parts within a post. I was searching for the latter. Ty, Skell.

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4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

All I see is the 'quote this' floater.

I never knew that you could highlight part of a post and get that floater.  If I wanted just part of a post, I would always just quote the whole thing and delete out what I didn't want.

22 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Keep clicking the + signs below posts you want to quote and, when you're done, click that 'quote [x] posts' icon and all of them will appear in your reply box

For multiples, I had tried that once and must have messed it up becuase it did not work the way I expected or wanted.  Thus, if I wanted to quote multiple posts, I'd just click 'quote', add my comments, scroll back up and click 'quote' for the next one, add more comments, rinse, repeat.  Much more tedious my way.  I'll have to try that + for the multi again and see if I can get it to work correctly.

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1 hour ago, Skell Dagger said:

From there I just remove the text I don't want to quote, and add my replies in between.

OHHHH. I thought I could HIGHLIGHT just a line (as above) and then "add" another quote of cropped text and they would show up all finished and ready to work with. THAT would be lovely, but apparently not the plan. OR someone "really, REALLY smart" will let us know. OOOOOR they will add that feature 9_9

Thanks for all that work. Sure it will be helpful. 

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Huh! I just accidentally discovered something I hadn't known before. I inadvertantly clicked on the grey bar at the top of a quote within a post and the quoted text disappeared. I clicked again and it reappeared. There is an arrowhead icon for the prupose on the left of the bar that I hadn't particularly noticed, so it's not something that's hidden but I hadn't considerd clicking on it before. The whole bar does it and not just the icon. I've no idea what it might be useful for though.

We're in a brief period of discovery. I knew this thread would turn out to be useful eventually :)

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8 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I never knew that you could highlight part of a post and get that floater.  If I wanted just part of a post, I would always just quote the whole thing and delete out what I didn't want.

Do you have any plans for the time you will save due to this new knowledge? :D

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On 5/31/2017 at 0:02 AM, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

If I had to guess I'd say it was Filter Forge, which has a huge library of user created procedural textures which can be used to generate near-infinite variations (in most cases complete with appropriate normal map, etc).

Got it in one, Fluffy.

They had a sale a month-ish ago and I picked up a copy of version 6 (version 7 is about to be released).  I'm having a blast with it, remaking some old builds with **my own** textures, instead of someone elses'.

The great, wonderful thing about it is that it gives you a base template to work from, that you can do nearly anything with, and that according to their TOS what you render with their program is legally yours (as ChinRey alluded to).

Here's a couple of links from their forum that addresses legal usage of filter forge textures;

https://www.filterforge.com/forum/read.php?TID=11328&MID=120040

https://filterforge.com/forum/read.php?TID=10655&MID=115283

It's not just a library of textures -tho it's that, too. But they're a base, which you can adjust different parameters to make something that is uniquely your own. For people who can't draw (**raises hand**) it's a life saver.

Edited by Han Held

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