SL isn't the same any more

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

Blah blah blah, whine whine whine, kids these days. Sorry, but you"re wrong. Content in SL is just as user-created as it was when SL started. Creating content in SL was always a specialized skill. Shaping and combining prims was a specialized ksill that not everyone could do. Making textures (as opposed to just colouring prims) is a specialized skill. Scripting is a specialized skill. Content created by specialists has always been a thing in SL. Stop blaming the mesh boogieman because you have nostalgia.

Then there is the obvious matter here. Prims didn't go anywhere. Scuplties didn't go anywhere. You can still do these things. You can still have speed building contests, prim-based arts and crafts, and whatever else you want to do with SL's building mechanics. I just had a cakemaking class, and it was really fun. What you can't do though is expect to sell these things for any profit, because people wants better looking items that load more quickly, don't affect performance as much. and cost less Linden per week to display. You can still make and used these things, just as you can still make and wear texture clothing (I'm looking at you, people complaining about mesh clothing and avatars). You can still have that lower barrier of entry and get started on these things. You just can't expect to make a business around it because people wants better products.

All that's changed is that things look better and are becoming increasingly more optimized. You can still build things. You can still be creative. You can still do crafts and building contests. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to the mesh and prim craft class I'm preparing.

[Talligurl]

2 hours ago, SaturdayGeeks said:

Sadly more proof that SL is dying.

We all are dying, nothing lives forever, seize the day and don't dwell on it.

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

All that's changed is that things look better and are becoming increasingly more optimized.

I'm not sure I agree with you there, at least not when it comes to landscapes. Nearly all the truly great SL builds I know of are prim and/or sculpt based and the few mesh ones all have the prim/sculpt look - either they are straight prim-to-mesh conversions or mesh replicas of old sculpt builds or just generally inspired by that style.

As for optimization, a mesh avatar can never be as performant as a system one because it inevitably means you have to add rather than replace parts.

Scenes can be made to perform better as mesh but it's rarely done because requires quite a bit of skill and effort and the only reward the content creator gets is the personal satisfaction of doing an excellent job. In case there's any doubt, item performance is not measured in land impact. Very often you have to go for less optimal solutions if you want to minimize the LI.

[ChinRey]

12 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

You also create here, but probably not as much as you once did

Actually I almost always start with a prim sketch inworld. It's so much easier to see what the build really needs when you can build within some sort of context right from the start. But you're right since I don't really build much anymore anyway. And I hardly ever bother to upload anything to Second Life unless it's something I make specifically for a friend. Why should I?

 

12 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Second Life was never able to achieve a truly immersive creative experience and it never will.

There are several reasons for that. The one you mention is an important one. We can't make a virtual reality that looks exactly like real life. If we try too hard, we fall right into Uncanny Valley and that's not a pleasant place to be.

Other reasons include the camera position bug, the clumsy user interface, the lack of consistency in proportions, lag and one that is very relevant for this thread: lack of context.

Bill Gates once said that content is king. He's right but King Content isn't worth much without Queen Context.

When you build inworld, the context is all around you. It may not be the same scene the build is supposed to be placed in but the overall style is everywhere and very difficult to ignore. When you build in Blender (or Maya or whatever 3D editor you prefer), it's very difficult to remember the context and it's easy to end up with something that may look gorgeous as a standalone item but doesn't really fit in with anything else. Mesh design tend to be all based on the same Unity inspired industrial standard so we don't get nearly as many blatant eyesores as we had back when everybody were going wild with prims. Instead we get all those miniature stylistic clashes. Everything looks ... right ... but ... there's something that just doesn't fit; you can't put your finger on it but it's nagging at the back of your mind. I suppose it's another version of Uncanny Valley.

Edited May 12, 2017 by ChinRey
Removing a few superfluous words

[Medhue Simoni]

If Second Life was still the same, it would not exist anymore.

Seriously Phil, another thread on prim nostalgia? Don't get me wrong here, I loved the SL I first walked into. Even today, I can look at some of that prim work and still be amazed by it. What I do not do, is sit around, crazily, thinking how I want to limit myself with prim legos.

To me, SL has always been about creativity. That is at the core of what SL is. It has nothing really to do with the tools, like prims vs mesh. It is about the ability to do either. It's about creating, not what you use to create with.

[Monti Messmer]

No it´s not, of course, the hype some of us have seen is over.

For me, i said it before, Mesh was the last nail ...

Now we have alot resellers of premade mesh with more or less different textures.

Creators with amazing skills in blender, but only with a throw-away character to upload to marketplace. (Why can´t they upload things without login ? well, better not 

It´s not creators started as "normal" Users and then evolved into creators and THAT´S what changed SL.

Monti

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Medhue Simoni said:

Seriously Phil, another thread on prim nostalgia? Don't get me wrong here,

Phil can answer for himself but to me it's not a question whether the old is better than the new or the new is better than the old. It's the collision between the two that is the issue. The old Second Life doesn't vanish overnight. It's still there in what you can read about SL in all those undated and outdated articles and blogs all over the internet, in all the old builds inworld and of course, all over the Marketplace. But most of all, it's still in people's mind. Their perception of what Second Life is, is based on the old one and it doesn't fit the new.

A very good example:

1 hour ago, Medhue Simoni said:

To me, SL has always been about creativity. That is at the core of what SL is.

That is your perception of Second Life and it's very much based on how it was (or at least how people thought it was), not how it is today. Well, it may still hold true for a small group of people but not for SL users is general. It isn't even true for SL cotnent creators in general, most play it safe and go for the market's lowest common denominator.

In case there's any doubt, I'm definitely not keen on going back to the old Second Life. I too want to go onwards and create something fresh and new. But I don't want to do that on top of the old clutter, using hastily updated worn out tools and materials. So I'm taking my creativity elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'm leaving Second Life btw. I have plenty of other reasons to be there.

Edited May 12, 2017 by ChinRey
Typo

[Medhue Simoni]

5 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

That is your perception of Second Life and it's very much based on how it was (or at least how people thought it was), not how it is today. Well, it may still hold true for a small group of people but not for SL users is general. It isn't even true for SL cotnent creators in general, most play it safe and go for the market's lowest common denominator.

I think you are making a big leap here. There are few people that can just be in SL for any kind of significant time and not have to do something creative. Just creating your avatar is a creative process. I watch daily vloggers, with absolutely no 3D creation experience, build amazing sets for their vlogs. Others, they spend hours a day creating crazy beautiful images from things they put together on their avatars, or things they got on the marketplace. It's nearly impossible to be in SL, and not have to be creative.

 

10 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

So I'm taking my creativity elsewhere

What? Yeah, I know you'll still be around, but I've been to most places, and SL is still where I'd rather create. Yes, I have much more freedom creating for an engine like Unity, but that is nothing like what creating something for SL is like. Plus, with all the new stuff happening in SL, I find it strange you would not be excited about SL's future. Animated objects were just announced yesterday. Yeah, gonna be months before we see this, but exciting that we'll have more proper NPCs. What gives?

[Aislin Ceawlin]

23 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

If you watch Hippie Bowman walk around, you'd think nothing has changed since then. He's a walking time capsule, he is.

;-).

This used to (heck, who am I kidding,?) STILL makes me laugh so hard! The SL "younguns" would never get this

Edited May 12, 2017 by Aislin Ceawlin

[sirhc DeSantis]

No its not the same as it used to be but then again after a decade - neither am I. Like others, I now am in 'other places' but SL remains the base for any creative (term used very loosely by one who struggles to draw a straight line with a ruler) activity. May be in a tiny minority but who cares? My world etc etc...

As for external tools - well I have barely touched the internal editor in years having found other tools. OK so the one thing I did have at the beginning was coding experience and its a small example but still - the same applies to using the Gimp or whatever for textures. And yes I fiddle (badly) with Blender, if nothing other than to exercise the swearing muscles. Therapeutic and if my efforts are dreadful compared to others - I don't care.

And thanks Medhue for the vid - one I still go back regularly.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

On 5/11/2017 at 9:26 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

I just remember in a lot of things you couldn't make a move without having to troubleshooting it..Mainly because of the glitches..Then once you would get used to certain glitches and they became part of your SL, there would be a patch and new glitches would show up from fixing the older ones or older ones would show up from fixing newer ones..

This is my all time favorite glitch, lmaao! Looks like I needed to make a waxing appointment! (Or buy a lawn mower!!!)

[Madelaine McMasters]

5 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Actually I almost always start with a prim sketch inworld. It's so much easier to see what the build really needs when you can build within some sort of context right from the start. But you're right since I don't really build much anymore anyway. And I hardly ever bother to upload anything to Second Life unless it's something I make specifically for a friend. Why should I?

 

There are several reasons for that. The one you mention is an important one. We can't make a virtual reality that looks exactly like real life. If we try too hard, we fall right into Uncanny Valley and that's not a pleasant place to be.

Other reasons include the camera position bug, the clumsy user interface, the lack of consistency in proportions, lag and one that is very relevant for this thread: lack of context.

Bill Gates once said that content is king. He's right but King Content isn't worth much without Queen Context.

When you build inworld, the context is all around you. It may not be the same scene the build is supposed to be placed in but the overall style is everywhere and very difficult to ignore. When you build in Blender (or Maya or whatever 3D editor you prefer), it's very difficult to remember the context and it's easy to end up with something that may look gorgeous as a standalone item but doesn't really fit in with anything else. Mesh design tend to be all based on the same Unity inspired industrial standard so we don't get nearly as many blatant eyesores as we had back when everybody were going wild with prims. Instead we get all those miniature stylistic clashes. Everything looks ... right ... but ... there's something that just doesn't fit; you can't put your finger on it but it's nagging at the back of your mind. I suppose it's another version of Uncanny Valley.

You're part way to my thinking about why it's not possible to create a truly immersive creative experience in VR. Building in context is important, and so it's useful to have your building tools exist inside the world where your creations will live. That said, SL, having no architectural codes, would never "look right". Even if we had fantastic in-world building tools, people's artistic and skill differences would ensure a hot mess, as it always has.

The hope I had was that SL might grow the sophistication of its building tools over time, so that we could continue to stand in grassy fields building 3010* minute moon planes that weren't viewed as quaint. But that was only a hope. RL 3D design is still waiting for breakthroughs that make creation as "immersive" as building sandcastles. It's easy to be seduced by movies showing intuitive 3D interfaces that make creation seem like sandcastling. Then I remember they're movies.

;-).

 

* I found my old moon plane in inventory and rezzed it. There's been some rot over the years, I built it in 2008, a couple months after arriving in SL. I don't seem to be flying from the pilot's seat. There was a couples cuddle pose for the pilot/co-pilot. That's gone missing. The particle texture was of a star I created in Photoshop. That's gone missing as well. And the plane's description field says "10 min", so it wasn't a half hour contest. That makes me feel better. Even now, after years away from building, I think I could make something better in 30 minutes. I did just fly it, so the old (probably Cubey Terra?) script still works.

[Innula Zenovka]

When we talk about people using SL to create things, I don't think we should ignore the way that many people who never build anything play an important role in content creation.    I'm thinking of all the people who use products they've bought in the marketplace or shops to create in-world environments, be they public spaces like clubs and attractions or simply the skybox where they entertain friends.

I've got some land that a friend landscaped for me into a really attractive little park.   She hardly made anything herself, but she did spend a lot of time designing and planning it, and looking for what was available in-world and in the marketplace, and created a lovely environment by putting together components other people had made.

I'd describe that as a creative contribution to the SL environment. 

[Klytyna]

I used to do a lot of 3D work, as a hobby, I've made mesh objects for still renders, and games mods, but I didn't join SL to 'be a creator' I came here because I was curious about something somebody mentioned to me one day out of the blue, decided it might be fun, and stated.

Did I end up building and texturing and scripting in SL, yeah, but not as a business, not to make money or be famous.

The Secondwave Lastnamers, that 2006-2009 crowd, during the SL Gold Rush, many came here specifically to make money and get real world income form digital fun, as per the advertising hype. The Golden Dream where everyone, no matter how clumsy or unskilled or talentless or inept, could start a successful business selling home made crap to others for loads of money.

The "World-o-Prims" nostalgia is part of this, a "Argh! It's all so unfair! Why can't I get rich too? It's all the fault of those pesky Resident kids and their danged mesh!" knee-jerk reaction from people who can't cope with the changes.

People have demanded the democritisation of creation for decades, people complaining that 3d software is too complicated, that image editing is too complicated, that programming is too complicated.

Always the same people complaining too, the ones who cant program or paint, or sculpt.

Entitlement Syndrome...

"I wanna be famus an rich, an have a hot gf, an sell stuffs wot i makin wif da 'Make Art' button in da app, an it r mah rite to do dis coz I r online!"

 

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

Animated objects were just announced yesterday. Yeah, gonna be months before we see this, but exciting that we'll have more proper NPCs. What gives?

I'm trying to imagine what people will use animated mesh for in a world where horror movie style trees with slowly rotating branches that seem to be out to grab you is considered the ultimate thing in realism...

 

2 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

What? Yeah, I know you'll still be around, but I've been to most places, and SL is still where I'd rather create.

What I'm working on right now is nature - lush, dense vegetation. And a long road through it all where you can walk or drive or race for miles. I want it to be render efficient enough to give a good experience even if all you have is a battered old laptop and with a high end game computer you can safely use Oculus Rift without having to keep a stack of barf bags by your computer.

Apart from the racing - you can't do that with sim crossings every 256 m - this is all possible to do within Second Life of course but there's no point. It requires optimized mesh throughout. There's hardly any of that avaiable in SL today so almost everything would have to be made from scratch anyway. The build is 1000x1000 m in size, that's 16 sims. (It's built to RL scale to so effectively it's more like 30-50 sims in size.) 2000 dollars a month in tier - who's gonna pay for that?

Come to think of it, I may not give up Second Life building completely. Just about everything I make for that project would be very suitable for SL too and I've already uplaoded some meshes for my own use. There's just one problem, the lack of a market. Who in Second Lfie wants a low lag forest when they can have a single tree with slowly rotating banches for only twice the LI?

Edited May 12, 2017 by ChinRey
Typos, typos and more typos. Missing the spellchecker :(

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Aislin Ceawlin said:

This is my all time favorite glitch, lmaao! Looks like I needed to make a waxing appointment! (Or buy a lawn mower!!!)

Ah yes, that and the sister glitch 'shoe up the a**'

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

When we talk about people using SL to create things, I don't think we should ignore the way that many people who never build anything play an important role in content creation.    I'm thinking of all the people who use products they've bought in the marketplace or shops to create in-world environments, be they public spaces like clubs and attractions or simply the skybox where they entertain friends.

I've got some land that a friend landscaped for me into a really attractive little park.   She hardly made anything herself, but she did spend a lot of time designing and planning it, and looking for what was available in-world and in the marketplace, and created a lovely environment by putting together components other people had made.

I'd describe that as a creative contribution to the SL environment. 

Absolutely. Creation happens in many ways and at many levels. People who can't swing a hammer or dig a hole in RL can buy homes, furnishings and landscape objects to create beautiful environments we can all enjoy in SL. I love that and would argue their contribution is just as important as those who make the homes, furnishings and landscape objects. I think the moat between those two camps is widening, but SL still affords people avenues for creative expression that RL can't.

[Madelaine McMasters]

49 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

People have demanded the democritisation of creation for decades, people complaining that 3d software is too complicated, that image editing is too complicated, that programming is too complicated.

Always the same people complaining too, the ones who cant program or paint, or sculpt.

I don't think I'm complaining, but 3D creation tools are too complicated. I can program, I can paint, I can sculpt (in both virtual and in real materials, using both virtual and real tools).

I've been a technologist since I was a child and every day I encounter some technology that could be made easier to use. I spent a good portion of my career trying my best to make that happen. The democratization of creation (as in the democratization of everything else) is a double edge sword, but I think it's worth getting cut a li'l to unleash the creative potential of more people.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, Aislin Ceawlin said:

This is my all time favorite glitch, lmaao! Looks like I needed to make a waxing appointment! (Or buy a lawn mower!!!)

I was gonna mention that one also hehehehe.. I had that workaround down pat..

I had my inventory opened and could go right to the items I was wearing and have them on and off before you could say ,lickity split..It was just second nature after awhile..

I was really glad when I didn't have to do that after teleporting anymore..

Hey,My hair is not up my butt,what's going on ?! \o/

Then after realizing that glitch was fixed,I was walking on eggshells wondering what we gave up for it..What would be the new glitch that replaced it..

hehehehe

 

Yea that was a fun glitch for sure..=)

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Ceka Cianci

[Talligurl]

On 5/10/2017 at 11:18 AM, Skell Dagger said:

Technically they can be created inworld, if you're willing to spend in the range of L$5000 on gadgets which convert prim builds into mesh objects. However, things like that rely on external servers to generate and serve up the .dae files, so everyone who has made that purchase (including me) is at the mercy of someone else paying the server bills. I noticed a few weeks back that the reviews on the product that I purchased have gone from "absolutely brilliant" to "absolutely brilliant... when it works".

When I read this I though oh my goodness this is just what I need. So I looked it up on Marketplace and bought the demo that is 50L and lets you try it 5 times, and got around today to trying it out and discovered my new mesh object has only two faces which renders it useless for my intentions. So I was searching around on the internet trying to find out how to create an object with additional faces when I found an article on how to convert prim objects to .dae files within Firestorm without the need of any gadget. I haven't gotten back to my computer to try this out, but I am wondering is there a catch?, something that makes the 2000L gadget better than the Firestorm method? I do not plan to do anything extremely complex, just some artwork with multiple pictures, and saving that money would be wonderful. 

[Skell Dagger]

@Talligurl You probably have a different gadget than I do, since the one I purchased doesn't have a demo. I'm not sure about the Firestorm conversion option, but I can tell you the way the gadget that I have generates its faces is by texturing. Each differently-textured face on the original prim build will be rendered as a distinct face on the final .dae file, to a maximum of eight faces (I think it's eight; don't quote me on that!) If you have six faces with the same texture on the prim build, they will be a single face in the final mesh creation.

In short: you build the item in prims, texture it, then set the entire thing to transparent. You then view transparent and set only the visible faces to opaque (thus the transparent faces aren't rendered in the final file). After that, you add the gadget's script and wait for the link to download the .dae file. Once you upload it, you then re-texture it, and each face that you used a single texture on will be textured at the same time.

Example:

That's a really quick and simple set of shelves that I made. It's only got three textures on it: the detailed carving, the scratched wood, and the golden edging. When I dragged the carving texture onto the back 'wall' of the shelves after importing the mesh file, all of the side walls (both inside and out) were instantly textured with the texture repeats and offsets retained from my original prim build.

I hope that made sense. It's late here and I've had a long day and am about falling asleep on my keyboard 

Edited May 26, 2017 by Skell Dagger

[Talligurl]

Yes that sounds exactly the way the thing I bought works, except i didnt add the different textures beforehand, and I had two different textures each of which ended up as faces in the final object. I was trying to create a frame that held three separate images, but the three images are all the same face. But this is exactly the way the the feature in Firestorm is supposed to work to, but instead of putting a script in the object, you right click and one of the options is Save, and you choose Colada, or however it is spelled and supposably it saves the .dae to your computer. Now I really want to get off work so I can get home to try this. And yes it is 8 faces that is the max that can be imported into SL

http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/fs_import_export

[Chic Aeon]

On 5/12/2017 at 5:00 AM, Monti Messmer said:

It´s not creators started as "normal" Users and then evolved into creators and THAT´S what changed SL.

I SO VERY MUCH disagree with this. Most of the folks making high quality mesh have been here for a VERY long time. I blog for a LOT of them. I have watched them from prim to sculpts to their first steps into mesh.

THEY MADE THE EFFORT TO EVOLVE WITH THE PLATFORM. It took time (lots of time) and effort (lots of effort). They didn't just "drop in from somewhere elseP; many have been here longer than I have and I am working on 10. 

WE ARE THE "NORMAL" USERS. WE ARE STILL HERE!

 

I refrain from making that 60 point type in bold and red. LOL.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Chic Aeon

[Pamela Galli]

2 hours ago, Talligurl said:

Yes that sounds exactly the way the thing I bought works, except i didnt add the different textures beforehand, and I had two different textures each of which ended up as faces in the final object. I was trying to create a frame that held three separate images, but the three images are all the same face. But this is exactly the way the the feature in Firestorm is supposed to work to, but instead of putting a script in the object, you right click and one of the options is Save, and you choose Colada, or however it is spelled and supposably it saves the .dae to your computer. Now I really want to get off work so I can get home to try this. And yes it is 8 faces that is the max that can be imported into SL

http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/fs_import_export

Just remember to Remove Doubles of the mesh in Blender.  

[Talligurl]

Ok, I will figure out what that means.