How does your avatar look today ?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

25 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Why would I "want" to see that?

This. 

As I've said, I "liked" this pic. I didn't comment on it when it first went up, for all sorts of reasons, not least of which is that I didn't want to seem to be criticizing a pic featuring people I like and respect. 

I emphatically do not "want" to see the sexism in this picture. And writing about it is unpleasant.

But, I don't have a choice about what I see in it. This picture, as trivial and non-serious as it is, falls squarely into a tradition of images that have served for at least 70 years to showcase the supposed subservience of women.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Aaaaaand another thread down the drain...

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Catrie said:

I think it's sad that feminism is being used to shame the women that posed for this picture.

What I think is sad, Catrie, is that some women sometimes see "feminism" as an instrument of entitlement, and don't recognize that it also represents a set of responsibilities that include a willingness to employ critical thinking about, not merely what we see our culture saying about us, but how we, as women, might also be unconsciously complicit in that.

I have very deliberately and consciously made it clear that I'm not trying to apportion "blame" here. I am not trying to "shame" anyone. Zeta doesn't seem to think that I am, and she's right: I like Zeta a lot, and I definitely am not here to criticize her.

I am analyzing an image, and demonstrating how it signifies. An image is a communication, just like any other form, and when we communicate, we sometimes convey meanings that we don't intend to. I can speak with authority on that subject: I'm always accidentally communicating things I don't mean to say.

It's not about suggesting that anyone here is trying to undermine feminism, or argue for the subservience of women: it's about seeing, through analysis and critical thinking, the unconscious and almost certainly unintended implications of one particular picture.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[LittleMe Jewell]

While I do think the thread needs to get back to pictures, I'm going to comment on "the picture" -- partially because it seems to have caused some rather interesting and somewhat contentious remarks and partially because I am mostly an observer in this thread these days, so I often have a different viewpoint on some of the pictures posted.

When I saw the picture, my first thought was that if I were to title the picture, I'd go with something like "'Orwar and his Playthings".  I do not equate 'playthings' with 'weak and/or submissive'.  One can easily be strong and dominant and still be a plaything for someone - at least IMO.  I really liked the picture, but the arrangement and clothing of the women compared to Orwar's clothing and positioning seemed to scream that title out to me.  In my mind, there is nothing good or bad about that title either.

Edited June 8, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell
spelling (of course)

[Madelaine McMasters]

8 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I do not equate 'playthings' with 'weak and/or submissive'.

And I don't equate "things" with "people".

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I do think the thread needs to get back to pictures

This.

I've said everything that I think I want to say about this picture, and certainly a lot more than I intended to. I don't have anything to add to what I've already said, or has been said by other.

So, let's get back to pictures.

And, with that in mind, if there any men here who would like to join Orwar in his underwear in a picture that I imagine as a close-to-exact counterpart of the one Zeta posted, let me know!

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, let's get back to pictures.

I'm done, too.

It's not unusual for me to cause consternation for others by coming at things from unusual and/or unexpected angles.

It's sorta what I do.

So, yes. Ya'll get back to pictures.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I am analyzing an image, and demonstrating how it signifies.

   You're telling us what you see in this picture, and to be plain it's the same thing you always seem to see.

   To us it certainly wasn't about oppression of gender, but about a group of friends collaborating to do a shoot in a theme which interests us all - we didn't add any pretentious allegories behind it. As for me being a perpetual symbol of male dominance who couldn't possibly ever allow myself to be sidelined to the 'margin' of the picture? What about this family portrait I did with my SL sisters and mother?

 

   Same deal. A group of people who wanted to do a shoot together - I didn't tell my family what they should wear, I suggested the pose and lineup, and we had a laugh about it. Am I being oppressed because I'm off to the side being pushed back by my sister when my mother looks the other way?

   This thread is just 'how does your avatar looks today', and that's what most people here share. None of us asked for you, or anyone else, to analyse this picture, or any other picture, it's the kind of elitist behaviour that I've brought up in the past as a concern for newcomers - who'd want to post in this damned thread if they're new to SL photography and see your page-long rants about how evil people's works are?

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 minutes ago, Orwar said:

 You're telling us what you see in this picture, and to be plain it's the same thing you always seem to see.

I was the one who started this, Orwar.

ETA: Had it been a noob image, I'd not have commented.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Alexis Kiyori]

What on Earth happened here today? Anyways... pretty picture of me & my friend Demaras

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, Orwar said:

 

 

Now that's a truly lovely photo!

So . . . you're still up for the pic, right? Of you in your frillies?

[bobbiestarrz]

[Orwar]

31 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Of you in your frillies?

   Well, if you want equality, we should both be in our frillies, no?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Orwar said:

   Well, if you want equality, we should both be in our frillies, no?

No, no. Let's reproduce the pic as is, but with roles reversed! What we're wearing has nothing to do with equality, right?

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Well, if you want equality, we should both be in our frillies, no?

The image you were in didn't depict equality. A subsequent image, intended to achieve equality, requires reciprocation.

Okay, now I'm really and truly done!

I think.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Catrie]

13 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The image you were in didn't depict equality. A subsequent image, intended to achieve equality, requires reciprocation.

Okay, now I'm really and truly done!

I think.

That's the good thing about SL.  If you want to see it done, you can always do it yourself.    Well, you and 2,3,4+ however many friends you want to collaborate with, for this particular picture. 

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Let's reproduce the pic as is, but with roles reversed!

   Mm, will we also reproduce my family portrait with two other guys and you being pushed out of the frame?

1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The image you were in didn't depict equality. A subsequent image, intended to achieve equality, requires reciprocation.

   Ah, I see. So, two wrongs does make one right? 

   See, anticipating both of your answers to those questions, I expect to see that no, only when womankind has been wronged does it require sacrificial appeasement; that's not equality, but revanchism. It also suggests that you both believe in equity over equality, i.e. that it's not the liberty to choice that matters, but the results. 

   As to answer your question about whether I might participate 'in my frillies' in a picture of your making, Scylla, there's one minute detail that makes that scenario very different from me participating in a shoot with Zeta, Ayela and Rita; they're my friends. 

   Now, if you have any further comments or questions, you're free to direct them to me in person, as I'll participate no further in derailing this thread. Just beware if you do, that there will be no forum guidelines to restrain my tone in my IMs.

   And to try swinging back to the topic of the thread; how my avatar looks today:

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Ah.

Bluff called, then.

Carry on.

 

ETA: lol, did you just threaten me, Orwar?

20 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Just beware if you do, that there will be no forum guidelines to restrain my tone in my IMs.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Zeta Vandyke]

Even if the picture could be taken in the context that it obviously has been, I think the very important thing to keep in mind here is that everyone participating did it willingly. We enjoyed doing it, it was our choice. It's not like Orwar forced us in the role (would love to see him try though). And honestly, even if we would actually been submissive and him being dominant, if that is our choice, then why not? Who are others to judge. I see girls walking on a leash in SL almost everywhere I go. Not my preferred style, but if they do like that, good for them. If that's what they want to explore in SL.

If this was a topic about equal rights and feminism, the picture would be terribly out of place and bad taste. But this is a topic where we show our SL avatars, how we look, our SL (life)styles, we have to accept that not everyone's style agree with your own. 

 

[Cristiano Midnight]

Switch it up:

[Madelaine McMasters]

30 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Ah, I see. So, two wrongs does make one right? 

Had the images been done in concert, I'd have seen no wrong to right.

I'd never post an image like the original or its reciprocal in a context like this, unless as an obvious lampoon. I have no confidence I could display a power imbalance of any kind without appearing to condone... a power imbalance. And so I'd satirize it.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[AyelaNewLife]

I am hesitant to post this, given the last page of back-and-forth. I don't particularly want to fan the flames here. But I feel it's important that I don't hide this away, simply due to some heated discussion around dominance, submission,  gender roles and symbolism. And certainly not in this month, of all months.

In short... that collar I'm wearing in Zeta's photo? It's not just for show. Make of that what you will.

 

[TatianaNikolay]

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I am hesitant to post this, given the last page of back-and-forth. I don't particularly want to fan the flames here. But I feel it's important that I don't hide this away, simply due to some heated discussion around dominance, submission,  gender roles and symbolism. And certainly not in this month, of all months.

In short... that collar I'm wearing in Zeta's photo? It's not just for show. Make of that what you will.

 

It's a lovely, and loving pic, Ayela. I just see two people who care for each other.

[Madelaine McMasters]

12 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I am hesitant to post this, given the last page of back-and-forth. I don't particularly want to fan the flames here. But I feel it's important that I don't hide this away, simply due to some heated discussion around dominance, submission,  gender roles and symbolism. And certainly not in this month, of all months.

In short... that collar I'm wearing in Zeta's photo? It's not just for show. Make of that what you will.

 

It's a lovely depiction, Ayela.

As someone who has participated in similar relationships, I appreciate the significance of the collar.

Those I've been with would tell you that I was a real pain in the ass about demonstrating the equality of those relationships, both internally and externally. There's certainly less historical baggage associated with images like this and the care depicted between the two of you is palpable. I'd say the same for an image any two people where such mutual caring is clear.