Jump to content
Scylla Rhiadra

The UnQueering of Second Life

Recommended Posts

   Every day, I see and interact with many young people. I have a trans person in my life who is very young and very dear to me. They all give me hope for the future.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I plan to read this from the beginning one day, as you are such a knowledgeable and eloquent writer on the subject..

That's a very sweet thing to say, Luna! Thank you. ?

In some regards, it's probably pretty out-of-date: when it was written, it really did look as though there was some danger that SL was going to move in the direction of Facebook. But I suppose the basic principles articulated by everyone here still apply. And there are some really great contributions from others!

I too have it noted for full reading, as you started this thread right around the time I started my 'mostly absent from SL/Forums' time.

As to the Facebook comment, I am so glad SL never went that direction.  I hate FB.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

Every day, I see and interact with many young people.

 

47 minutes ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

I have a trans person in my life who is very young and very dear to me. They all give me hope for the future.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes. And I don't mean to sound glib about it, because I'm not under threat myself, and can only empathize as an ally. But I do think that we've turned the corner, in the long run. What we're seeing now is a backlash from ideologues who are trying to stop the future, and their viciousness is, at least in part, a function of their awareness at some level that they are going to lose -- indeed, really, have already lost.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't the potential for a great deal of pain and persecution in the coming years, of course. But I remain, overall, an optimist.

Hmm, yes, damn those nasty TERFS and their concerns over female erasure.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Donna Underall said:

If I meet then start seeing a guy in SL and he makes me feel the way I want to feel, why should I care who he might be in RL?  

If you're both on the same page regarding SL vs RL then I don't see why you should care..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Donna Underall said:

If I meet then start seeing a guy in SL and he makes me feel the way I want to feel, why should I care who he might be in RL?  

 

You shouldn't unless you want to take it outside of second life. Then there may be some issues. But if you don't care either way. Then kudos to you.

But make sure that both of you are ok with it.. this will avoid any heartache.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Hmm, yes, damn those nasty TERFS and their concerns over female erasure.

Some of them seem to hate being called terfs. So here's an alternative you can use: Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. It's more accurate too xx

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

Some of them seem to hate being called terfs. So here's an alternative you can use: Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. It's more accurate too xx

A rose by any other name...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:
1 hour ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Hmm, yes, damn those nasty TERFS and their concerns over female erasure.

Some of them seem to hate being called terfs. So here's an alternative you can use: Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes. It's more accurate too xx

Lexxi, why is it that when there's a valid argument between the oppression coming from a majority toward a minority, someone always comes up with a point so inconsequential (as there are so few TERFS right?) in order to obfuscate the main problems the marginalized minority is encountering.

This is some kind of warped logic, do you know the term for it?  It's not a 'red herring' really, but kind of...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, I saw this in the other thread. Think of ALL the Trans people and their oppression throughout most of creation. Couldn't we have just one thread where this was addressed completely?

But no, someone has to bring up how there are some bad Trans people, those prisoners. Why do people do that? There's always going to be exceptions to the rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This is some kind of warped logic, do you know the term for it?  It's not a 'red herring' really, but kind of...

False flag?

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes 'false flag', but to what end? Well, someone could be a type of troll or griefer, interjecting false flags to get a rise. Or they could be unconcerned or even against your cause and so point out an exception to the rule in attempt to disqualify your cause.


What disturbs me even more though, are the intellectuals who, in a debate, can't seem to commit to one side in an emotional way. Heaven forbid, express emotion and appear to lose their objectivity right? And so, they embark on an attempt at fairness, begin to expound both sides of an issue as if the sides are equal, and lapse into a tirade of verbal masturbation.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why do people do that?

It seems like a simple question, but..

Many people are heavily invested in the sense of identity and the groups they belong to that give them security, privilege, and convenience, even if those identities are artificial or tenuous (societal notions of what it means to be a 'man' or a 'woman', for example). When people come along whose mere existence challenges those strictly defined identities, by making them visibly arbitrary, they strive even harder to maintain their safe status quo. This applies to members of the public laughing and joking at, harassing or assualting trans folk, right up to extremists who campaign to legislate against or demonise queer identities.

Knowing that the general public is, by and large, horrified by open acts of hate and bigotry, the extremists who seek to reinforce the patriarchal/ kyriarchal status quo, turn to more subtle tactics: creating 'legitimate concerns' where there is no need (no historical precedent, and other solutions are easily available), amplifying those very few exceptions (such as the awful Karen White case) with the aim of tarring their traget group with the same crimes, appropriating/ disguising themselves as a concern group, and so on - when they really just have one aim in mind: keep down the people that will challenge their position of superiority and privilege.

Terfs pretend to be feminists*, because that gives them credibilty as commentators about 'controversies' surrounding gender. Yet you never see them campaigning to protect womens' bodily autonomy, remove taxes from sanitary products, improve the lives of disabled women or women of colour, etc etc. They just have one target. And they essentially work 'against' women by striving to reinforce a status quo that contributes to womens' marginalisation.

*There are some genuine feminist academics that explore and discuss anti-trans arguments, but they tend to be pretty sober about it, unlike the loud voices we encounter on social media and in the press. Also, terfs are almost always white, middleclass, ablebodied people who have experienced little oppression themselves in comparison to other women.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

And so, they embark on an attempt at fairness, begin to expound both sides of an issue as if the sides are equal, and lapse into a tirade of verbal masturbation.

Yeah, that's freakin' tiresome and does nothing to help anyone.

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting info, Lexxi...thanks.

I did encounter some TERF's (I guess that's what they were, if the name was in usage then) at a festival who would not allow even boys into their space. At the time I had a young stepson and had the feeling they wanted me to just toss him out to the curb by the trash before entering the meeting...

Are there a lot of TERF's around, and are they mainly on the internet these days? With this attitude toward men, they can't be helpful for either feminist or Trans causes, to say the least :(

I just found some interesting info:

"Margaret Atwood, in her magnum opus The Handmaid's Tale, claimed that people indistinguishable from TERFs were partially responsible for creating the clerical-fascist dictatorship in the book.

This is a very prescient observation. TERFs, as noted above, have a very cozy relationship with the far-right, frequently agreeing with them and even collaborating with them, despite the far-right's ubiquitous misogyny.

Many prominent TERFs like Janice Raymond have collaborated with the American Religious Right (going as far as to work with Jesse Helms of all people) to deny health coverage to trans people. In Northern Ireland, TERFs collaborated with the Democratic Unionist Party (i.e the Ulster Taliban) in passing anti-sex-work legislation.

Many anti-feminists, including most frighteningly Milo Yiannopoulos, have praised TERFs, with Milo going as far as calling Julie Bindel, who has called for putting men into reeducation camps, as being his favorite feminist (alongside (of course) faux-feminist Christina Hoff Sommers).[29] "

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

Knowing that the general public is, by and large, horrified by open acts of hate and bigotry, the extremists who seek to reinforce the patriarchal/ kyriarchal status quo, turn to more subtle tactics: creating 'legitimate concerns' where there is no need (no historical precedent, and other solutions are easily available), amplifying those very few exceptions (such as the awful Karen White case) with the aim of tarring their traget group with the same crimes, appropriating/ disguising themselves as a concern group, and so on - when they really just have one aim in mind: keep down the people that will challenge their position of superiority and privilege.

Sneaky :(  It must be difficult to know just who you're up against in open debates.

The 'needing safety' part you mentioned in another paragraph I understand pretty well, and often it is actually not malicious, but these deceptive bigots described above are a different case.

Edited by Luna Bliss
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I just found some interesting info:

Yeah, that's all very typical of what we've been seeing (and defending against) all over social media, especially with the recent escalation of anti-trans campaigning in the UK :(

And Margaret Attwood has been fantastic, making her views on it all clear. One of my fave writers too ❤️

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LexxiXhan said:

Yeah, that's all very typical of what we've been seeing (and defending against) all over social media, especially with the recent escalation of anti-trans campaigning in the UK :(

And Margaret Attwood has been fantastic, making her views on it all clear. One of my fave writers too ❤️

I try to stay away from social media -- this forum and an infrequent visit to a couple others are all I can take :(  I'm sorry you have to go through all that. I remember the first Trans person I encountered at aged 14, riding around Seattle with my Uncle. I remember the explosion of laughter erupting from him, with no regard for how the person crossing the street might feel. I'm not sure it's altogether different today, albeit more concealed in some cases.

Margaret Atwood...yes me too..love her. Think I'll start watching Handmaid's Tale from the beginning again on Hulu. She really digs into power structures well..

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Are there a lot of TERF's around, and are they mainly on the internet these days?

This is the hopeful bit: there are enough to make a loud noise, including some in privileged positions (radio presenters, mainstream news journalists), but essentially their numbers are small compared to the cis women who accept and support trans women*, and their recent antics have started to make them seem ridiculous in the publics' eyes. Also, we have good examples such as Ireland where positive affirmation and acceptance of trans people has been very successful.

*For example, there's a huge celebration in Manchester tonight put on by cis lesbians as a specifically trans-inclusive show of support ❤️

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

This is the hopeful bit: there are enough to make a loud noise, including some in privileged positions (radio presenters, mainstream news journalists), but essentially their numbers are small compared to the cis women who accept and support trans women*, and their recent antics have started to make them seem ridiculous in the publics' eyes. Also, we have good examples such as Ireland where positive affirmation and acceptance of trans people has been very successful.

*For example, there's a huge celebration in Manchester tonight put on by cis lesbians as a specifically trans-inclusive show of support ❤️

Great news :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Derek Torvalar said:

Hmm, yes, damn those nasty TERFS and their concerns over female erasure.

Hi Derek. I wondered where you'd gotten to.

I have pretty much zero tolerance for transphobes.

But I'm also not really big on terms like "TERF," "SJW," "MRA," "PC," etc. They're intellectually lazy and dishonest rhetorical strategies for transforming one's opponents into a straw man. The minute I see a term like "SJW" or "MRA," I know that we're talking about politics from fixed ideological positions, rather than engaging with real ideas.

As for concerns over female erasure, pffft. What's being erased here are distinctions between things like biological sex and culturally contingent gender, and any recognition of the complexity that underpins the way that identity is actually generated.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...